Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

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General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)
P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
P = passes F = fails		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
3. Have at least 4 participants.
For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

15 days ago is: 01:16, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
7 days ago is: 01:16, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:

Streamlined closing with User:DaxServer/DiscussionCloser.js
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The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Add dieting figures

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting 5

PASSED

Added 4-2 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 10:23, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sure Aurangzebra (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get this over the finish line. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:59, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Don't think he's that significant. J 947 ‡ ^edits 03:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not so vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:05, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I hope the people opposing are not basing it on only the article's lede paragraph. The Legacy section is to me solid proof that he is a notable enough figure to list as vital. Makkool (talk) 17:58, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Michio Kushi

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Non-Western + solid pageviews. J 947 ‡ ^edits 03:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We'll never finish this otherwise. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 10:23, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

~~Macrobiotic diet is not listed. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2025 (UTC)~~[reply]

Discuss

Add Walter Willett

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Difficult, this one. Not very well-known but apparently quite significant – perhaps the opposite of many nutritionists. J 947 ‡ ^edits 03:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ann Wigmore

FAILED

Not added 2-2. Makkool (talk) 12:47, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After some more thought, let's add her for now, both in line with the other suggestions and Miscellaneous people having the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Little-known naturopath. J 947 ‡ ^edits 03:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Military & Revolutionary Proposals (set 2 of 2)

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

PARTIAL PASS

Pir Roshan added 4-0
Mustafa Rumi not added (no consensus) 2-1
Ustad Ali Quli not added (no consensus) 2-1
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support only Pir Roshan. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Just to clarify the margin, we're currently at 4-0 to add Pir Roshan, but only 2-1 to add Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've added Pir Roshan to the list. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add 3 Irish republicans

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support on Mulcahy, if only to finish this vote. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Twomey and Goulding. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Just to clarify the margin, we're currently at 3-0 to add Richard Mulcahy, 3-2 to add Moss Twomey, and 3-1 to add Cathal Goulding. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

PARTIAL PASS

Sam Manekshaw added 4-0
Tikka Khan added 4-1
K. M. Shafiullah not added 3-2
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Maneshaw only _pbp 16:07, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support Tikka Khan, oppose Shafiullah. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose Khan and Shafiullah. Relatively minor figures with few interwikis. _pbp 16:07, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
These were definitely brainstorming on my part, especially Shafiullah, so I'm not that invested in them being added. More as a comment though, if one of the 2 or 3 people arguably most responsible for trying to genocide Bangladesh has few interwikis, I'd take that as an example of how unreliable interwikis are as a metric sometimes. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discussion

I've added Manekshaw to the list. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify the margin, I interpret this as currently at 3-0 for all. I sort of goofed up by accidentally typing "decline" instead of "neutral" for some reason. @Iostn: Did you actually want to Oppose by posting under the Decline header, or just neutrally discuss? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think I meant that as a "discuss" comment Iostn (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Henri Fayol

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management 5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor 5.

Support

As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ralph Gonsalves

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, not sure leading these islands has the same geopolitical heft as some others we're discussing, but we still have a cushion in Leaders. We can revisit things more systematically when we need to prune the section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Bernardino de Sahagún 5

PASSED

Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 16:50, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Spanish Franciscan friar who is highly regarded as a pioneer of ethnography and anthropology. He was one of the first Europeans to scholarly document and write about pre-Columbian civilizations, most notably in the Florentine Codex.

Support

As nom. To anthropologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, good find. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:58, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add cinematographers

Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).

Add Roger Deakins

From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:23, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

I fail to see what's particular/innovative about his work. The article doesn't explain. Hollywood's technical level is very high, you can take virtually any big budget movie and give it an Oscar. Yes, Coen brothers' films are beautifully photographed, but who is the one to "blame" :-) [praise] for their visual style, the director or the cinematographer? --14:40, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
You can try and convince me otherwise. Maybe Deakins is the best cinematographer of all times... I honestly don't know. (He probably is here because of The Shawshank Redemption. But I personally think the movie is way overrated.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:23, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Emmanuel Lubezki

From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:32, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

This seems to be a case of recentism. I would also be careful adding Hollywood directors/cinematographers/actors based on their number of Oscars/nominations. The Oscars are an industry award given out by insiders to fellow industry workers. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:11, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Kazuo Miyagawa

From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

I voted for adding earlier today. But the problem is that the article doesn't say much. And neither does the Japanese one. So the question is... what do you intend achieving by adding this one? It doesn't seem likely that the page grows significantly in the near future. I'm taking back my vote. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:24, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What do anybody of us intend to achieve? Listing significant people in their fields is the point. Current content quality or future growth potential matters less at least for me. I usually follow sources outside of Wikipedia, when it's not my own expertise or general knowledge. For these, I asked ChatGPT to provide a list of most vital cinematographers from around the world. Makkool (talk) 04:16, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Raoul Coutard 5

PASSED

Added 4–0. Makkool (talk) 16:47, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cinematographer with the most credits in the top 1000 films of all time according to TSPDT [1]. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:04, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:31, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Gabriel Figueroa

From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

This is too niché, isn't it? (You can try and convince me otherwise.)
Better add a couple of directors with household names. There are infinite choices like Arturo Ripstein (who is Mexican as well), Mikhail Kalatozov. And I have nominated some already. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:06, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Subrata Mitra

From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

This is too niché, isn't it? Better add a couple of directors with household names. (You can try and convince me otherwise.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Christopher Doyle

From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

This is too niché, isn't it? Better add a couple of directors with household names. (You can try and convince me otherwise.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:51, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Edi Rama

Has served as prime minister of Albania since 2013.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, not sure how powerful the PM position is in Albania, but Leaders has a cushion for now. We can revisit more systematically when pruning the section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

It's just that not many people have heard of him (outside Albania). --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:02, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Move Zero Mostel from comedians to stage actors

His vitality stems from his three Tony Awards, especially the one for Teyve. _pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion we should be allowed to move entries, especially on the same subpage, without having four votes; I have proposed relaxing the rules but that propposal has mostly been ignored. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Breyten Breytenbach

A while back there was actually a vote to remove his brother, Jan Breytenbach, a soldier far less well known than he is. Also quite a nice South African who has hardly killed anyone.

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, after some thought, even if Writers is still over quota, we probably under-represent Poets. Though I honestly haven't checked the current numbers. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Surprised he wasn't here already. I think we underlist South African writers. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:31, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seems vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:53, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood 5 and Ralph Bunche 5 to politicians

I cannot fathom why they are not listed under politicians when their principal endeavors were diplomatic/political (both received the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy). In addition, Cecil was a Cabinet secretary in the British government. _pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree completely that, for now, Politicians is probably the best place for them. TBF though, we really don't have a good area for non-military officers (diplomats, economic planners, viziers, etc.) -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Reason #1 bazillion why politicians, diplomats, bureaucrats, jurists, activists and generals all should be in the same category...because of the blurred lines between all of them. _pbp 01:01, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster doesn't really do anything. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cecil also served in both houses of parliament _pbp 20:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add recent military leaders from the Russo-Ukrainian War

After reclassifying less political brigands and pirates under Criminals, instead of Rebels, we have a lot of slots open in the military section. I normally don't suggest recent figures, and I know the topic brings out a lot of emotion in people, but I think the current war between Russia and Ukraine is clearly historical. That makes generals from both sides notable:

Valery Gerasimov, general staff and current theater commander of Russian forces
Oleksandr Syrskyi, current commander of Ukrainian forces
Sergey Surovikin, previous theater commander of Russian forces, also led Russian forces in the Syrian civil war
Valerii Zaluzhnyi, previous commander of Ukrainian forces

I don't know whether he belongs under Rebels, Businesspeople, or something else, but I'd also suggest

Yevgeny Prigozhin,

both for his role in forming the Wagner Group and the weird (sort of?) rebellion he led in 2023. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. See discussion.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Mixed
Neutral
Discussion

This is an interesting situation. As the conflict continues, these roles might change. A leader who seems vital now may in hindsight be only a footnote in a larger war. Furthermore, can we use these modern leaders to look back in time to other conflicts and identify people who might be "vital." For example, August von Mackensen led the join invasion of Serbia during the Serbian campaign 5 of WWI (which likely saw at least 700,000 combat casualties on all sides, and between half a million and 800,000 dead civilians). WWI is not in the news today so not on the forefront of our minds, but it seems to me that either people like him are vital, or people like Valery Gerasimov are not, as a vital article should ideally always be vital.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@GeogSage: Yeah, I'm normally hesitant to vote for adding living people to VA, especially recently notable ones. But in this case, I think they're tied up with some clearly historical events and we have the room. As for your analogy, I would totally support adding this von Mackensen character; I'm not familiar with him, but the figures you mentioned seem like a strong argument to me, and of course... we still have the room. I know we do at least include Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck 5 so there's also a precedent of some "deep-cuts" in the list of WWI figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Hassan Djamous to Military leaders -> Modern African

Upfront, the page is currently a stub and may not have many interwikis, but I suspect that's more a coverage bias than a lack of notability.

He was the commander of Chadian forces during the Chadian-Libyan War, and became famous for his effective use of light technicals, particularly at the Battle of Fada. Chad ultimately won the war, which is sometimes known as the Toyota War due to Chadian tactics under his command. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral

Add Angela Burdett-Coutts, 1st Baroness Burdett-Coutts to Philanthropists

Filthy rich 19th-century Brit who was the matron of a bazillion causes. Arguably one of the most influential women of Britain of that period

Support

_pbp 13:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, philanthropists is under Miscellaneous, which we're still topping up. No need to overthink it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Her father Francis Burdett is not listed. It would be like listing Lachlan Murdoch, Ivanka Trump, Ailsa Mellon Bruce, Christina Onassis, Frédéric Arnault instead of their fathers. Sahaib (talk) 14:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Would it, though? Do any of the sons and daughters you list have more interwikis than their daddies? Angela out-interwikis her daddy 17-13. By comparison, Aristotle Onassis throttles his daughter in terms of interwikis, 62-20. With the Mellons, it's 31-4. I'm sorry; while I think your analogy was in good faith, I just don't see it as particularly applicable to the Burdetts _pbp 16:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you check the talk page of Francis he is rated as High-importance to WikiProject Politics of the UK, I'm not an expert on the subject so I don't know if that rating is accurate but the point I'm making is that whilst he doesn't get as many pageviews, he is arguably more vital. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Swap Margaret, Maid of Norway for Malcolm III of Scotland

Margaret, Maid of Norway is known for having a short disputed reign (similar to Lady Jane Grey who was recently removed), she was also 7 at her death making her possibly the youngest vital person listed. Malcolm III of Scotland, whose name means "great chief" reigned for 35 years during which he invaded England a number of times. Additionally he is major character in Macbeth, his wife was canonised as a saint and his daughter married Henry I of England making him the ancestor of all English monarchs after that.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I normally balk at swaps, but this one is a pretty clear jump in notability. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Swap Władysław II the Exile for Mircea the Elder

The only two monarchs of Wallachia listed are Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) who is level 4 and Alexandru Ioan Cuza at level 5. Poland and Lithuania have 28 (14 in Post-classical (500–1500) and 14 in Early modern (1500–1800)). Mircea's article could be expanded a lot from Romanian Wikipedia, an example of a detail not included in the English version is that he was featured on comparative coins in 2011. Basically he ruled Wallachia at its peak, had conflicts with the Ottomans and has a lasting legacy as can be seen by the film Mircea (film). He ruled a lot longer than Władysław and has more language links.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since nobody commented for over a month, I thought about this, couldn't make up my mind, then I asked ChatGPT and it agrees with the nom :P Here's AI rationale: "If we compare their broader historical significance, Mircea the Elder was more important because: He played a crucial role in defending Europe from Ottoman expansion. He strengthened Wallachia, setting the stage for later Romanian history. His legacy influenced key figures like Vlad the Impaler. Władysław II, while notable in Polish history, was largely a victim of circumstances and had less direct impact than Mircea."--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:50, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

I feel that Basarab I of Wallachia would be the better add. _pbp 13:21, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Mary Oliver

Another add to writers for a change. She is arguably one of the most famous contemporary American poets.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, everyone did a good job trimming Writers and we under-represent poets. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:17, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Edmund Ironside for Oswald of Northumbria

The only Anglo-Saxon monarchs listed prior to Æthelstan (considered the first King of England) are Offa of Mercia, Alfred the Great (vital 4) and Edward the Elder. There is no monarch of Northumbria listed which is why I suggest adding Oswald of Northumbria as he brought Bernicia and Deira together and promoted Christianity in the region. He was also Bretwalda which basically meant that he was the most powerful Anglo-Saxon monarch at the time and a cult developed around him in the Middle Ages, there is even a place in Slovenia named after him (Ožbalt). Edmund Ironside has not left as big of an impact or legacy as he briefly ruled as King of the English prior to Cnut, other short reigning monarchs not listed include Edward V and Francis II of France.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

A much less important king. A meaningless exchange.--109.81.90.210 (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

@109.81.90.210: can you please expand on your response. What do you think makes Edmund Ironside vital? Another option could be Edwin of Northumbria. Sahaib (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

for example interwiki? 55:28? Does this score mean nothing? Or was this dominance caused by King Edmund's teenage fan club, which created articles for him on 40 Wikipedias with the help of Google Translate? 109.81.90.51 (talk) 13:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The interwiki links are just the result of him being king of England, which doesn't automatically make a person vital, the same way not every Emperor of Russia is listed (Paul I of Russia) or every King of Portugal (Afonso VI of Portugal), or every Emperor of Japan (Emperor Go-Momozono), etc. Sahaib (talk) 13:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Devika Rani

I don't especially prioritize the Entertainers section, but the article describes her as "Widely acknowledged as the First Lady of Indian cinema".

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, we have the room, and while it's totally an assumption, I'm guessing Bollywood is under-represented relative to its impact. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bae Yong-joon for Lee Jung-jae

This isn't WP:RECENTISM as they are both the same age with Lee starting his career slightly earlier. Lee has 12 more language links, more pageviews, and more awards (see List of awards and nominations received by Lee Jung-jae). He could also go in the film section but TV is probably where he has the most cultural impact.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Mixed

Support add, neutral on removal (note that Winter Sonata 5 is VA) Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Same as lostn. For Lee Jung-jae, I can see a recentism argument being made against him here since it seems like he only became a superstar after Squid Game. However, the fact that he became famous in the West as a purely Korean-language actor (this has since changed) is a VA5-worthy accomplishment in and of itself. I could also be completely biased since I'm fresh off watching Squid Game Season 2. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support add, weak oppose removal. We probably should cut in the future, but actors are technically under-quota and probably still biased towards English-speakers. No need to overcomplicate it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Milo Đukanović

Vital Montenegrin politician due to him being prime minister (1991–1998, 2003–2006, 2008–2010, 2012–2016) and president (1998–2002, 2018–2023).

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, my first reaction is to oppose on procedural grounds (we have too many leader additions in play), but you opened this several weeks ago. Also IIUC we consider repeated terms in office as a strong precedent here to date. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Ken Kutaragi 5

So this is rather an interesting/complicated case, he is currently listed under "video game designers", but he isn't technically responsible for design of video games themselves, rather he is most well-known for his technological work on developing the PlayStation, the system rather than the games themselves. He also became the chair/CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment and is currently president of another company, meaning he could be listed under businessmen. Even under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians, there are two different subsections he could fit under, "Inventors and engineers" or "Computer scientists and programmers". Iostn (talk) 21:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Iostn: In a situation like this, I would say split out his accomplishments by category, then place him according to whichever ones are most notable or outstanding. Do you have any opinion on that; I'm not sure I'll have time to skim the article myself. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

He is most notable for designining/engineering the PlayStation, I don't think he would be listed if he was just CEO of the SOny Computer Entertainment division but I think he could be argued as having served as a businessman for a longer period Iostn (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If the engineering project is his most notable accomplishment, than let's list him as an engineer. The section also has room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Inventors and engineers

Support, nom suggests lead engineer of the PlayStation is his most notable achievement, so let's list him as an engineer. This section also still has room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Most logical place for him Makkool (talk) 16:19, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:41, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Computer scientists and programmers

Move to Businesspeople

Keep under Video game designers

Add Yi-Fu Tuan

Yi-Fu Tuan is a Chinese-American geographer who is considered one of the key figures in Human geography 4. He is highly notable within the discipline, essential to the covering of other topics within Geography 2, and while he was an American professor, he was born in China so this inclusion may help to reduce our western bias.

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, if he's a human geographer, this is actually easy because we're way under quota in Social Scientists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have a list of social scientists from geography about a mile long. I'm not as fluent in my other disciplines, but I know the ones we tell grad students are "vital." There are some at Level 4 I proposed that are struggling as well. The hard thing with the social sciences is that a high h-index does not mean they will have a well developed article. For example, Waldo R. Tobler 5 has an h-index on his ResearchGate of 40, and 16,636 citations. Mei-Po Kwan 5 has an h-index of 95 and a i10-index of 338 on Google Scholar. Over the past 10 years though, views for the pages have not been high compared to other types of articles. What is absolutely vital to academics in the ivory tower doesn't seem to translate well to Wikipedia, as one 2015 publication by Mei-Po Kwan et al. has more citations then her page has had views since 2015. She won the The Applied Geography Specialty Group of the American Association of Geographers James R. Anderson Medal of Honor (Considered by some to be the highest award for a geographer in America) in 2022, so the discipline has recognized her work. I have one proposal I'll make after this based on this comment. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 00:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Religious figure proposals

Add Paul Tillich

"was one of the most influential theologians of the twentieth century". Not sure if he should be in philosophers instead. I'm hoping we could one day have a clear separate section for theologians in the Social scientists page, but that will be for the future. I'm not exactly looking forward to separating them out from the philosophers one by one.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and we don't list Theologians in the Religious Figures section? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We don't list them all there like Thomas Aquinas 3, who is in philosophers. I find it arbitrary and it's been on my mind as something that should be discussed. The best would be to have them all in either Religious figures or in Social scientists separate from philosophers. In the latter case Religious figures would be reserved to religious leaders and to figures other than academic theologians. Makkool (talk) 08:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem arbitrary, and I've actually been wondering something similar about bundling all Philosophers with Social Scientists. Not so much theologians, but I wonder if it would make more sense to split primarily moral philosophers from more intellectual ones. For example, if I think of Muhammad 3, Confucius 3, and Willard Van Orman Quine 5, I would personally consider Quine the odd-one-out there.

That would obviously be a separate discussion for Lv5 as a whole, but beyond filling out actual articles, we definitely still have a lot of organizational work to do here. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Philipp Spener

Founder of Pietism, which I'll be also proposing later. Pietism was highly influential to Protestantism, as part of the Lutheranism in Central and Northern Europe and as influence to other Christian denominations like Methodism and Anababtism.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and more generally, our coverage of religious topics is really anemic; don't get me started on some of the basic concepts we're still missing. I'm still waiting for the Society talk page to quiet down some, but I have at least 30 or so ready to propose. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Carlos Castaneda

American anthropoligist and best-selling writer, and an highly influential figure in the new age movement by promoting neoshamanism.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, whether you put him in Social Scientists or Religious Figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Bede Griffiths

An English Benedictine monk who worked in India as a missionary looking to find common ground between Christian and Hindu mysticism. He was a significant promoter of religious dialogue between Eastern and Western traditions. He used to be listed, but at some point he was removed without discussion, so this is a proposal for re-adding.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

_pbp 18:46, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Italian singers (set 2 of 2)

I would like to propose to add these singers to the "Italian" subsection of "Non-English language popular music". (Here: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers.)

They are really "the very top of their trade". They all appear on the list here: List of estimated best-selling Italian music artists.

Update. Umberto Tozzi was unexplainably swapped for some unknown people in this edit: [2].

--Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC), updated at 04:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Gianni Morandi

A very famous Italian singer. I wonder why he is not on the list.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, Italian pop singers may or may not be over-represented now; the page organization makes it hard to get a clear sense of balance. I'll defer to the nom on this one, but going forward, we'll probably want to trim Italian pop musicians before adding more. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Add Umberto Tozzi

A very famous Italian singer-songwriter. I think he is more relevant to the English-speaking community than most of the current list.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, Italian pop singers may or may not be over-represented now; the page organization makes it hard to get a clear sense of balance. I'll defer to the nom on this one, but going forward, we'll probably want to trim Italian pop musicians before adding more. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Add August Ferdinand Möbius

German mathematician renowned for his contributions to geometry and topology. His work laid the groundwork for modern algebraic geometry.

Support

As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, did work in other fields too. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Margaret Mahy

Margaret Mahy was an acclaimed children's author from New Zealand. She won several major awards and written over 100 books. Currently we don't list any children's authors from NZ, so she should fit well to the list.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, everyone did a really good job of trimming the Writers section, and it's now back within the cushion. We'll probably want to trim more in the future, but for now, we can add a couple. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes (set 3 of 4)

Remove George Ripley (transcendentalist)

PASSED

Removed 4–0. Makkool (talk) 17:27, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Largely a footnote in the history of utopian socialist communities

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, especially since modern American activists are close to 1/8 of the entire section. Way more Transcendalists to choose from also. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
PrimalMustelid (talk) 01:01, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Zumbi

Perhaps the most famous anti-slavery rebel in Brazil

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, adds good coverage outside America and before the 19th-century. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Kōtoku Shūsui

Among the forebears of Japanese anti-state leftism

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, adds good coverage outside America. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Jose Maria Sison

Filipino rebel leader for over 50 years

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, adds good coverage outside America. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Iqbal Masih

Widely commemorated child activist

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, had to skim the article, but beyond coverage outside America, also adds coverage on an issues basis. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Leila Khaled

Not sure how we don't already have any Palestinian figures on here

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, adds good coverage outside America, and we should almost definitely have 1 Palestinian activist. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Mordechai Vanunu

In the tradition of Daniel Ellsberg 5, Chelsea Manning 5, etc

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, precedent of other government whistleblowers seems clear. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Thi (talk) 08:12, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Maryam Rajavi

Leader of the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran, one of the longest running armed groups attempting to overthrow the Iranian government

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very weak support, I think either the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran article or Massoud Rajavi would be more appropriate. But they're a notable enough part of the past half century to have one article representing. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

This one's complicated because after I first put aside my feelings about the MEK, I agree she would probably fit most under the Activist umbrella. However, if I had to think of a clear analogy, I think the closest would be Helga Zepp-LaRouche, the final wife and eventual heir of Lyndon LaRouche 5. By that precedent, if we're going to have 1 person to represent the MEK, we should list Massoud Rajavi instead. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated Maryam first purely based on her seeming to be more well-known, and in any case the LaRouche movement had peaked well before LaRouche died Iostn (talk) 23:09, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I know she's in the news now & then, but your 2nd point also kind applies to the MEK too. The MEK has been a despised fringe group within Iran since Operation Mersad, and by the time Massoud Rajavi "retired" in the early 2000s, they were essentially just a small cult camped out in Iraq. I think the only reason they're even notable in the West nowadays is enough of the American government & media, along with some wealther Iranian emigres, still fantasize about overthrowing the Iranian government. The MEK is the one group that can offer "subterfuge as a service" (again similarly to the LaRouche movement) so they get money & attention. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of missed this comment earlier but yes, you do have a point, although that said the foreign funding and attention they receive does elevate her nonetheless, regardless of wherever said attention is justified. I guess the question for now is if people here would be ok with adding both of them, regardless of other factors. Iostn (talk) 19:50, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Nimr al-Nimr

Saudi sheikh and opposition leader, whose execution saw international condemnation

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support but maybe under Religious Figures instead? I know he wound up in English news for more political reasons, and the article reflects that, but I think he was primarily still a religious leader. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Dutty Boukman

Important instigator of the Haitian Revolution 4

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Chen Sheng

Leader of the first of many uprisings that led to the eventual dissolution of the Qin dynasty 4, China's first imperial dynasty

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Wolfe Tone

Important forefather of Irish republicanism

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes (set 4 of 4)

Remove Theodore Dwight Weld 5

This may be controversial, but he is a fairly obscure figure today, the US is generally overrepresented and we already have many others to represent the American abolitionist movement such as Harriet Tubman 4, John Brown (abolitionist) 5, Frederick Douglass 4, Harriet Jacobs 5, et al

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose, despite American activists being over-represented. I've honestly never heard of him, but skimming his article, that may be more of a reason to keep him? It sounds like he was actually pretty influential. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I am a bit impressed by the fact that his wedding has a robust article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:29, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral
Discuss

Remove Nikolay Alexeyev 5

There probably needs to be some other non-US LGBT activists (I did once propose Karl Heinrich Ulrichs 5 be moved from sexologists to here but got no response), but he doesn't seem to be that prominent outside of Russia, and also seems to have rather uh, let himself go since the 2000s.

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, deferring to nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Swap Gail Dines 5 for Emily Davison

Don't even really know why Dines is here, we list Andrea Dworkin 5 who is much more well-known and impactful as a figure representing anti-pornography feminism, and pageviews and interwikis are also relatively low. Meanwhile, we seem to have a relative defecit of suffragettes, and Davison's death remains one of the most famous moments of the suffrage movement.

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, deferring to nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:18, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Swap Ivan Kalyayev 5 for Boris Savinkov

Russia during the late Tsarist era was rife with assassins like Kalyayev, so someone who stands out much more would be the head of the armed organization to which he belonged. Arguably he might belong under assassination in Misc > Crime instead, but unlike Kalyayev, the latter's notable activities went beyond that.

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Mixed

Oppose removing Kalyayev, but support moving him to Misc -> Assassination and also adding Savinkov. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I actually added Kalyayev during the WP:BRD era for a couple reasons. The article doesn't actually get into it, but IIRC, his assassination of Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich was linked to the Khodynka Tragedy (note we list neither). Also, the article only mentions the play by Albert Camus 4, but he's also a notable figure in The Rebel (book). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should probably add those two first, especially as there's no question to me of their vitality. Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Béla Kun

Known as the leader of the 1919 Hungarian Revolution - very surprised to realize he was neither here nor in politicians

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Anna Walentynowicz

Arguably only second to Lech Wałęsa 4 in terms of Solidarity (Polish trade union) 5 figures

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Remove Irataba 5

A very thorough FA, but he seems more minor outside of the context of the Colorado River peoples, and overshadowed by other US indigenous figures we list, such as Sitting Bull 4, Geronimo 5 and Wilma Mankiller 5, as evidenced by the low number of interwikis and pageviews. Definitely important regionally, but unfortanately falls short when the US is already overrepresented.

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:19, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Phan Bội Châu

Important pioneer of the Vietnamese anti-colonial movement

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Shih Ming-teh

"Shih was one of the most prominent personalities of the Tangwai movement and greatly contributed to Taiwan's democratization. He has been referred to by some as "Taiwan's Mandela" on account of his efforts for democracy and prolonged incarceration." - also to note, we don't list anyone else from Taiwan currently

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Roger Casement

Important Irish nationalist, anti-colonialist, humanitarian and investigator

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Otelo Saraiva de Carvalho

Leading figure of the Carnation Revolution 5 and alleged leading figure of Forças Populares 25 de Abril

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya

Wife of imprisoned Belarusian opposition politician who herself became the figurehead of Belarus's government in exile after running against Lukashenko in 2020

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Importan figure in modern Belorusian politics. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:51, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

She has zero influence in a country that isn't even that big. Yes, she was a forced meme back in 2020–21. But no one has heard about her since. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Kōhei Uchimura

One of the most internationally decorated male gymnasts of all time with an argument for best ever in his sport. 7 Olympic medals (3 gold) and 21 World Championships medals (10 gold).

Support

As nominator. GauchoDude (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. Max Whitlock could also probably be added. Sahaib (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, relatively ancient sport (even if modern competitions are newer), and we can afford 1 addition after all the removals. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:29, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose straight add on new athletes. Could support a swap, but don't have one in mind. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 04:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I'm not sure if I needed to clarify in the nomination, but Uchimura, if confirmed, would go under Level 5 Sports Figures, Gymnastics category, MAG (men's artistic gymnastics) subcategory. GauchoDude (talk) 19:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Niklas Edin

Curling is at level 4, so there should probably be some more curlers added. Edin is arguably the greatest European curler of all time, so should probably be added.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose for now, largely a matter of timing. There's a concerted effort to trim the athletes section right now, regardless of whether the quota changes. Part of that is figuring out how much representation less mainstream sports like curling should have. If we decide down the road we need more curlers, I would be fine adding him then. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Tadej Pogačar

Pogačar is probably vital enough by now due to achieving the Triple Crown of Cycling.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 23:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Meant to propose him earlier last year when he won the Tour De France for the 3rd time. Arguably a top 3 all-around cyclist of all time and he still has a long career ahead of him. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, it's an exclusive enough accomplishment that we can treat him as an exception to the current pruning. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Nathan Chen

Per this except from the article "Chen, who has been referred to as one of the greatest men's figure skaters of all time by news outlets, holds the highest winning percentage in competitions in the modern era with a more-than-three-year winning streak from 2018 to 2021 in what has been described as one of the most dominant four-year stretches in the sport's history."

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to strong support; we removed 2 figure skaters to balance so I can get behind this as promised. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Very weak oppose for now, entirely based on timing and our current pruning. I'm not even into figure skating, but I'm aware of him from the Olympics. If someone starts a separate proposal to cut 2 other figure skaters though, I'll switch to strong support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Viktor Axelsen

Axelsen was the world number one for 183 weeks, the third-longest reign in badminton history.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 00:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose for now, largely a matter of timing. There's a concerted effort to trim the athletes section right now, regardless of whether the quota changes. Part of that is figuring out how much representation less mainstream sports like badminton should have. If we decide down the road we need more, I would be fine adding him then. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Fan Zhendong

Table tennis section is a bit small. Per the article, "From December 2013 to December 2024, Fan was ranked top five in the world according to the ITTF -- this eleven year streak is the longest in men's singles history...He is also a two-time team event gold medallist, as well as a two-time World Champion and four-time World Cup champion in men's singles."

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose for now, largely a matter of timing. There's a concerted effort to trim the athletes section right now, regardless of whether the quota changes. Part of that is figuring out how much representation less mainstream sports like table tennis should have. If we decide down the road we need more, I would be fine adding him then. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Carl O. Sauer

Carl O. Sauer is likely one of the single most influential geographers to American geography in the 20th century. His focus was on Human geography 4, and on his page they mention he has been called "the dean of AmericanHistorical geography 5." Per above, we are under quota on social scientists.

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, Human geographers are an easy add with Social Scientists still incomplete and no plans to shrink the section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Read through the article and I don't see the importance here. Sure, he made the most influential paper on cultural landscapes but that isn't a VA5 topic nor should it be. I think it's bad precedent to add unknown academics whose influence mainly pertains to subfields. It's a very slippery slope. If we do go down this route, I would prefer academics whose influential papers can directly be attributed to societal impacts. For example, we don't list Ashish Vaswani and the other authors who wrote Attention Is All You Need, the paper that every researcher points to as the one that is responsible for the current AI boom. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:40, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing the word "unknown academic" next to Sauer is painful. His influence is more on how academic geography is taught in the U.S. then anything else. Outside literature is likely needed to fully understand academics, not just looking at Wikipedia. For example, the chapter Carl Sauer’s Contributions to Historical Geography and Human Ecology in a Springer Nature publication, or CARL SAUER, FIELD EXPLORATION, AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF AMERICAN GEOGRAPHIC THOUGHT in the journal Southeastern Geographer, which opens with the line "Carl Ortwin Sauer (1889-1975) is recognized as one of the most influential figures in American geography." He's one of those guys that is talked about in graduate seminars in the first two or three lectures to set the stage for literature reviews. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:18, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral
Discuss
Proposal signature

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Abdul-Malik al-Houthi

Key figure in the Yemeni civil war (2014–present), Houthi insurgency and the Red Sea crisis.

Support

As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 16:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, starting to get a little nervous about the Leaders cushion, but clearly influential with staying power. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Underrepresented countries in Contemporary Politicians based on population (set 2 of 2)

Add Filipe Nyusi

Served as President of Mozambique for a decade, was previously defence minister. According to the article, his term saw poverty increase, escalation of the war in Mozambique's central and northern regions, an economic crisis and he was accused of abusing power. Mozambique is also relatively underrepresented in Politicians and leaders/Contemporary (1945–present).

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, getting nervous about the cushion for Leaders, but good points about representation. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Add Li Qiang

Has served as Premier of China since March 2023. All his predecessors since 1949 are listed (except Li Keqiang who I also recently proposed should be added). China is also relatively underrepresented in Politicians and leaders/Contemporary (1945–present) even including Hong Kong and Macau. He was also Communist Party Secretary of Shanghai, Communist Party Secretary of Jiangsu and Governor of Zhejiang.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 15:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, getting nervous about the cushion for Leaders, but let's go ahead and follow the precedent of listing premiers for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The Account 2 (talk) 17:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral

Sportspeople removals, spin-off proposals

Remove Christy Ring, considered individually

FAILED

Not removed 1-3, possibly closing a bit early per WP:BUREAU (spin-off proposal from discussion in another). After further discussion, revisit adding back Pat Spillane for Gaelic football in the future. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Irish hurler, with a career spanning over 20 years and according to the page, many records, and considered by many to be the best player in the sport's history. For representation considerations, he's only 1 of the 2 currently listed "Gaelic Sports" players.

Support

Support. I don't think we need to have an individual representative for every sport any more then we need to have characters from every media franchise added. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:14, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose, after considering both the claims around his athleticism and that we only list 2 for the sport, I'd actually be OK keeping him for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As being considered the best in his sport. GauchoDude (talk) 12:17, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Per the Sport in Ireland page "In terms of support and attendance, Gaelic football accounted for 34% of total sports attendances at events in the Republic of Ireland in 2003, followed by hurling at 23%, association football (soccer) at 16% and rugby at 8%", Gaelic football is the most popular Gaelic sport in Ireland over Hurling. Gaelic football lost it's two representatives in the previous cutdowns. I don't see how Hurling should have any then. It probably should have been 1 for each or none. But not just 2 for the least popular of the two. GuzzyG (talk) 20:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC) 21:23, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, good catch, that's probably a consequence of us going by the section header, which lumps all "Gaelic sports" together. That happens sometimes since Lv5 is so fluid, but thankfully we can always revisit things after a cool-off period. Whoever closes this, consider including a note to revisit adding back Pat Spillane for Gaelic football. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Jim Shoulders, considered individually

NO CONSENSUS

No consensus for removal, 2-2, last activity in February (excluding GuzzyG signing their comment) _pbp 16:47, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

American rodeo cowboy, won 16 world championships (the record at the time), and clearly successful in the sport. For representation considerations, we currently list 6 rodeo riders (but note, only 1 polo player and 0 for Buzkashi 5).

Support

Pageviews are quite low compared to other rodeo cowboys. Sahaib (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Less influential then media franchises that would never make the cut. We don't list multiple characters from moderately successful videogame franchises, we don't need list all the successful athletes in a sport. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:35, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose. Huge list of accolades lending credence to him being a pillar within his sport. If we're looking to reduce rodeo, I think J.B. Mauney, Larry Mahan, or Charmayne James may make more sense? I'm certainly not an expert on the topic, but the resume seems stronger than others unless I'm missing something. GauchoDude (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to oppose, after looking into it a bit more, cutting Mahan and Murray from Rodeo is enough for now. Seems like Shoulders is pretty legendary in the sport too. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
~~Support swap with Lane Frost as proposed below~~,Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

~~I'm actually neutral on this one for now; I'd have to think roughly what representation rodeo riders should have~~. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The rodeo additions were chosen from community discussion from people that are knowledgeable on this subject [3] Should be worth noting that Montanabw's final recommendation was "So I recommend Bill Pickett, Jim Shoulders or Larry Mahan (preferably both), Charmayne James, Ty Murray, and Trevor Brazile" three of which would be removed here and would leave J.B. Mauney who was not. Subject matter discussion with interested and knowledgeable people is probably preferable compared to rough cuts for this reason. GuzzyG (talk) 20:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC) 21:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should only have one or two rodeo riders on the list, if that, since rodeo is a very niche sport. However, I don't know enough about to sport to know whether Shoulders should be that one rider. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Lane Frost could maybe be added instead since he gets approximately 38x more pageviews daily on average and arguably had a greater impact on the sport during his lifetime (Challenge of the Champions) and because of his death (The Last Ride (bull riding accident)). John G. Avildsen (at level 5) directed a film about him titled 8 Seconds in which Frost was played by Luke Perry (also at level 5). Sahaib (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cricketer changes

On a perusal of the cricket section, it's skewed more towards batters and the 1990s/2000s than I'd like. Wally Hammond is the most striking omission: he's generally viewed as a top ten batsman. I'm going to list my proposed changes and lump it all into one big poll in which you can indicate your supports and opposes – if there's any you take particular issue with, I'll explain my reasoning but I'm not going to go deep into it right from the get-go.

Additions for the batters: Wally Hammond (England 1930s), George Headley (West Indies 1930s), Greg Chappell (Australia 1970s), AB de Villiers (South Africa 2010s).

Removals for the batters: Inzamam-ul-Haq 5 (Pakistan 1990s/2000s), Mahela Jayawardene 5 (Sri Lanka 2000s), Shivnarine Chanderpaul 5 (West Indies 2000s), Sanath Jayasuriya 5 (Sri Lanka 2000s), Geoffrey Boycott 5 (England 1970s)

Additions for the bowlers: Michael Holding (West Indies 1980s), Shaun Pollock (South Africa 2000s)

Other areas that might warrant change are the inclusions of Clarrie Grimmett, Chris Gayle, Steve Waugh, Rahul Dravid, Jack Blackham, Ranjitsinhji, and Younis Khan and the non-inclusions of Javed Miandad, Allan Donald, Waqar Younis, Courtney Walsh, Ray Lindwall, Kane Williamson, Andy Flower, Aubrey Faulkner, Ravichandran Ashwin, and Anil Kumble.

Support (most)

Support all as nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 01:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support almost all, weak oppose Pollock. It's a very naive approach, but I skimmed his article and while he's clearly had a lot of success, I didn't notice any superlatives like in the other articles. The rest of the proposal will still balance things (+1 for bowlers and -2 for batsmen). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:54, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can live without Pollock being listed, but I feel like he can get a bit shafted. Whilst a level below the other test bowlers listed, his batting pedigree and ODI bowling mean he should be listed as an all-rounder in my opinion, and I would prefer him listed than the four below. J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:43, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I'll take note of that. Since it looks like the current bulk swap I started will bog down fast, I can probably incorporate him in the v2 swap I'll try later. My condition that we at least trim a couple cricketers for the new quota (but no more than 5 altogether, proportional to the quota drop) is just stronger. You've given us a lot of good input here though, and I didn't think of it before, but a swap that's m-to-n instead of 1-to-1 is a relatively smooth way to adjust representation. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:30, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support all removals. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I trust you since you seem to know cricket well. I actually wanted to propose AB de Villiers a few months ago because he's one of the rare cricketers I recognize and I saw he wasn't on this list so a strong support for him. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:30, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (most)

oppose additions.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Opposing Hammond (a top-ten test batsman) and de Villiers (a top-five ODI batsman) is nonsensical, as they should be listed if the cricketer section was half its size. J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:43, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

@J947: It's good to get some input from a cricket fan (I know next to nothing about the game except that it's like the one thing the entire former British empire can agree on). I'm fine deferring to your knowledge on this, but as written, it would add 1 cricket player overall. Do you think you could pick just 2 more players from the list to remove, as a new subproposal within this one? If so, I'll definitely support this proposal entirely. I don't think Cricket should drop below 55 people even if we cut the Sportsmen quota to 1,100, but I'm sympathetic to the trimming. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I actually had real trouble picking the next cricketer to replace – that's why I left it at that. Note that if the Bodyline swap passes then the number of players will revert to 60 and it will even out. A potential removal for the cricket section is International cricket

5, given we don't have anything like International football (a dab page) etc. If pushed, I'd suggest Younis Khan

5 could be removed as well although that leaves the list without any Pakistani batsmen. J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:16, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I realized if we just omit Pollock for now, we'll still be improving the balance away from batsmen and also making a small trim (especially in case the quota changes). That said, I noticed you had Javed Miandad in your alternate list, and his article makes it sound like he's a notable batsman. If a 1-for-1 swap between Khan and Miandad sounds right to you, you can just spin up a subproposal for that and I'll support it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:00, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Replace Douglas Jardine with Bodyline

One particular change I've cordoned off from the rest: Jardine is not vital as a batsman; his vitality comes from his captaincy in this incident, which better deserves listing in my opinion.

Support

As nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 01:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, assuming Bodyline would go under Cricket in the Everyday Life -> Sports section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Gertrude Bell

Alongside Tanni-Grey Thompson, another figure from Icons not in this list is Gertrude Bell, a traveller and writer who became "the first woman to map and travel across the Arabian Peninsula". Like Thompson, she is a runner up in her category, which is explorers, and I think it will be appropriate to add her in the Explorers section under Miscellaneous because of her importance.

Support

As nom. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, actually surprised she's not already listed. I don't know about the Icons program, but Bell is a pretty big deal historically, arguably the civilian counterpart to T. E. Lawrence 4. Also related, we list both Faisal I of Iraq 5 and Abdullah I of Jordan 5. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:13, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral

~~Weak oppose, I checked the talk page and the subject is currently rated at low importance in most WikiProjects. Sahaib (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)~~ Changed to neutral. Sahaib (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add Dawn Staley

As a 6xWNBA All-Star, 3x Olympic Gold, 2x World Cup gold and 2xNaismith College Player of the Year, she is still a notch below vital as a player. However, as a coach she is also an Olympic Gold, World Cup Gold, 3x NCAA Division I women's basketball tournament champion and 4x coach of the year. Given the dozens of athletes that are being removed, we have a chance to get female basketball bios up to a reasonable proportion compared to the men.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, she has an established career, helps with bias towards men's sports, and we are trimming elsewhere. Let's go ahead and wrap this up. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:26, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose adds to sports people that don't have a specific swap in mind to avoid the category growing unchecked. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
User:GeogSage, I do understand your efforts and intentions. However, even in areas that are over quota, we have not required swaps and I don't see any consensus for such a policy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:28, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My vote is oppose, my rational is that I don't want additions to sports until we can get the category reduced dramatically. It doesn't have to be policy, that is my vote and reason for it. I also don't think winning a lot of awards makes someone vital to the course of humanity, this isn't a sports Hall of Fame list. If the athlete isn't the single GOAT, I'd want to see how they have impacted the sport or world outside of the sport. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:44, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discussion

Swap Mongane Wally Serote for Alan Paton

Serote is relatively obscure compared to Paton. His main work, Cry, the Beloved Country 5 is listed but I think Paton deserves a spot too for his influence on apartheid literature.

Support

As nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. I am very weak support on removing Serote but strong support for Paton who I'm surprised wasn't listed. In general, I believe if an author is good enough to have even a single work at VA5, they should be on here as well. Aurangzebra (talk) 07:48, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Mixed

Support add, oppose removal. Everyone did a great job of trimming Writers & Journalists, and we're now back within the cushion. Let's just add for now and we can revisit trimming Serote in the next round. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support add, oppose removal, partly to ensure Black South African representation. Although looking into South African literature 5, you could swap Serote for his predecessor as poet laureate, Keorapetse Kgositsile, or possibly Thomas Mofolo Iostn (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kgositsile is listed. I think Mofolo, Sol Plaatje and (coloured) Peter Abrahams are better options than Serote. A possible Afrikaner inclusion is Olive Schreiner. J 947 ‡ ^edits 00:19, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Swap Bocchus I for Jugurtha

Jugurtha gets more pageviews than his father-in-law Bocchus I and all other kings of Numidia before it was divided into Eastern and Western Numidia except for Masinissa who is already listed. The only reason to keep Bocchus I is to have a king of Mauretania included as opposed to having two kings of the neighbouring Numidia. Though Numidia is a level 5 vital article whereas Mauretania is not, so having two kings seems reasonable.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 09:29, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for add, neutral on remove. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:36, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Mixed

Support add, oppose removal. I'm getting nervous about the cushion in Leaders, but for now, let's just keep this simple. We can start trimming in the next round. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add some human geographers

I have a list of geographers I think are important. Here are some that have been brought up recently in another proposal, as well as a couple others I think are important.

Add Ernest Burgess

Actually a sociologist more then a geographer, originated the Concentric zone model

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the section still has the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Paul Vidal de La Blache

Notable French Geographer, and founder of the French School of Geopolitics.

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the section still has the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I really disagree with the contention that just because we have space for something, we can relax our standards. I read through the article and there isn't anything particularly notable here. None of his ideas seem particularly notable. There are concerns on the talk page that most of the writing on the page is original research. It hasn't even been assessed by Wikiproject Geography, which you'd think they'd do if he was so notable to the field. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:58, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm mostly ambivalent about any of these as individual votes, but as someone that supports "add anything plausible if we're still brainstorming", I'm glad you brought it up. I saw you mentioned you work as a software engineer on the STEM page so I can keep it simple: it's exactly the same principle as rapid prototyping in agile development (not the management buzzword).

Improving on something that concretely exists typically works better then mentally juggling hypothetical moving parts in advance. And the larger the group collaborating on a project, the truer it becomes. You mention relaxing our standards, but my PoV is until we've filled out the category or had a discussion to trim it comprehensively, it technically doesn't have a standard yet. All of the articles added during the WP:BRD era make that even more extreme; even weaker articles than this will likely be tolerated until we reach quota and need to trim.

That's not to change your mind. If you have formed a mental model of what should & shouldn't be in the category, more power to you. I just want to defend rubber-stamping in never-finished categories as a practical measure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:26, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You bring up good points. I just want to push back against ambivalence because I just know that if proposals like these pass, a few years down the line, someone with fresh eyes and no context on the history of the project is going to come in and suggest this as an easy removal. In my opinion, frothiness in our VA articles list erodes trust in the project. If we need to fill up sections for quota, there are better ways to do this. Behind the scenes, I've actually been working on a tool that uses LLMs to categorize our articles, rank them based on the VA criteria, and using the existing list of people, suggest others who are missing from this list. LLMs are still not perfect yet and are subject to numerous biases but it gives us a starting point and, arguably, the most consensus view of them all since it is returning answers based on an entire web's worth of training data. I'm still fine-tuning it but I've been running it on our Musicians section (since that is one of my personal trivia strong suits so I can quickly verify how accurate the results are). You can quickly see the outliers who don't belong on our lists and also the notable omissions. I had a whole slew of musician proposals a month or so ago that I gathered from my pipeline and they all passed with no opposes which seems to indicate this is a viable approach. Moral of the story, if we need to fill out sections, there are more clever ways to go about this. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:02, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, you're absolutely right that a lot of things might wind up getting cut again; I'm just skeptical we can guess which in advance. For example, just on this nomination, the article itself has issues and I've never heard of de La Blache before. Yet out of thousands of potential suggestions, GeogSage pulled him and maybe a dozen others out of a hat.

Maybe the article is very marginal and we'll cut it a year from now. Or maybe we're just underestimating it because we're not geography wonks (which applied to the average Wikipedia editor, could also explain why the article isn't better). Maybe by the time we revisit it, someone will have expanded it and skimming the article convinces several people to oppose removal.

I have no problem with people using tools like your LLM for suggestions. That's actually quite neat, though I'm honestly still skeptical about them in most cases (it's not a general AI phobia; I'm all for embedding neural networks in lots of equipment).

My primary concern is there seems to be lot of circular reasoning here at VA: we omit articles, despite adding coverage or balance, because of vibes or metrics (none of which have ever been validated AFAICT). Then we base our interpretation of vitality on what's already here. The only thing that seems to shock us out of it is when someone realizes basic concepts or an entire chunk of our knowledge graph is missing. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:06, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral
Discuss

Add Ellen Churchill Semple

She was the first female president of the American Association of Geographers. Her work was relevant to Environmental determinism 5, not the prettiest of topics in hindsight but important in understanding how we got where we are now.

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the section still has the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I really disagree with the contention that just because we have space for something, we can relax our standards. Main claim to fame seems to be that she was first female president of American Association of Geographers, but this isn't a particularly notable organization. Not VA5 and Low-important on Wikiproject Geography. You argue on another thread that being a president of FIFA 5, a truly global organization with massive geopolitical reach and influence, is not necessarily notable in and of itself so I find it extremely hard to see how you can justify this proposal. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To answer your question about FIFA, I don't really consider sports to be that vital compared to science, just popular. In short, every academic organization in my opinion is more vital then any sport organization in my opinion, I don't even consider them comparable. Las Vegas gets a lot of people to dump money in casinos, that doesn't mean the casinos are more vital then universities. That is what I view sports as, gambling spaces to separate the masses from their money. I understand that as a slice of society we will have a lot of sports fandom members here and that is why we have a huge amount of our article space dedicated to that, but it doesn't mean I see them as Apples to Apples with science. You might as well ask me why I think Nature (journal) 4 is more vital then Sports Illustrated 5. That said, I didn't nominate her because she was a president of the AAG, but because she was the first female president. It is an attempt to get an early example of a prominent female geographer to balance our gender representation a bit. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:43, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral
Discuss

Add Walter Christaller 5

PASS

Added 4-0 Lophotrochozoa (talk) 17:53, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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German geographer and originator of Central place theory 5.

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the section still has the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can support this one since Central place theory is VA5 and rightfully so. The people who can be concretely attributed to a VA5-level idea probably belong on here too. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:52, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Doreen Massey (geographer)

FAILED

Not added, 3-2, most recent vote almost two months ago _pbp 16:50, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

British Marxist, feminist, and cultural geographer. She is notable for her "spatial divisions of labour theory."

Support

As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the section still has the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I really disagree with the contention that just because we have space for something, we can relax our standards. I read through her article. She is a standard professor. Tens of thousands of professors have won awards in their fields, a decent subset of which have won more prolific awards than these. Tens of thousands of professors have proposed theories and ideas in their fields that are generally respected. "Spatial divisions of labour theory" has not seeped into the public conscience or even into the social sciences at large. There is no article for it and the link on the page redirects back to the same wiki. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Aurangzebra. Sahaib (talk) 19:47, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral
Discuss
Proposal signature

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Nastasen 5

Little is known about this guy except that he apparently fought off one invasion. He does not seem vital, and there are plenty of other leaders that could use the slot.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as this source describes him as a "minor pharaoh". Sahaib (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:52, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose, I had to look into this one, but if you go to the one citation for his regnal stele, it's actually pretty meaty. Archaeological excavations of his tomb are ongoing too. In short, the current stub page may not reflect how much sources know of him already. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:17, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Zar and Geog _pbp 22:24, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. Change vote to opposeGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

I believe several of our leaders from Kush have been proposed lately. If a ruler survived in the historic record for thousands of years, they might be "vital," or it could be a coincidence that they happened to be kept while others were lost. That said, our leaders/people section definitely skew towards the past 500 to 1000 years in terms of coverage. Not saying I oppose this outright, but think there might be better groups to start with then ancient people. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:19, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Move Bill Nye

Bill Nye 5 is listed as an inventor but his main claim to fame is his science education and advocacy work. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support, he definitely is most known for being on TV. Maybe "Broadcasts journalists and commentators" is the right section, along with David Attenborough? Makkool (talk) 14:28, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Broadcast journalists and commentators seems fine to me. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:47, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to move him somewhere, it should be to hosts. I know that Fred Rogers 4, Bob Ross 5 and LeVar Burton 5 are not scientists, but they, like Nye, hosted children's television programs. _pbp 23:02, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Nye Saves the World was made for an adult audience, and he's also known for the debate against creationist Ken Ham. He's more than a children's entertainer and TV host. Makkool (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We have three votes in support (including me) and one neutral. Do we need another vote? Lophotrochozoa (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some addition proposals for Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists (under quota)

Forensic sciences

Add Alec Jeffreys: English geneticist who is very notable for his work in developing DNA profiling 4 techniques that are widely used in forensics.
Add Frances Glessner Lee: Nicknamed the "mother of forensic science". Notable for developing miniature crime scene dioramas for training homicide investigators (Nutshell Studies of Unexplained Death).

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:37, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support both – clearly more vital than most of the other forensic scientists listed. A bit strange that these are listed as social scientists? J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:04, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support both Makkool (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and either Scientist section has the room. I agree with J947 we may want to rethink how we organize Forensics experts, though I'm not sure which is the right answer. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Human geographers and cartographers

Add John Speed: 16th-17th century English cartographer and historian notable for his work in England and Wales at the time.
Add Fra Mauro: 15th-century Venetian monk well-known for creating the Fra Mauro map.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:37, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As a geographer, love to see other people proposing geographers. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:28, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support both Makkool (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support both, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Harvey's already proposed above. Listing Fra Mauro map would be significantly better than listing the man. Not sure about Speed. J 947 ‡ ^edits 22:53, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest nominating Fra Maura map under geography. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:29, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Philip Kotler

Under "Public relations, marketing and advertising theorists". Marketing theorist notable for popularizing the definition of marketing mix with an extensive publication list.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:37, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carl Bildt

Whilst his term as prime minister was quite short, he was notably the first conservative prime minister of Sweden in 61 years (similar to Danish prime minister Poul Schlüter who is listed), and led the Moderate Party for 13 years in 4 elections. He was later the foreign minister under Fredrik Reinfeldt from 2006 to 2014 (and was offered the position again in 2022 but he declined). He also served as the first High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina. Excluding Sweden's three most recent prime ministers and Olof Palme (who is already listed), Bildt gets the most pageviews.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Going to support here just to provide some kind of dissent even though it almost certainly won't pass with the current quota, as he is an important figure in European international relations, more than domestic politics. Iostn (talk) 00:57, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose, he seems like a pretty mundane politician on a global scale when looking at all of human history. How many rulers of Kush have been nominated for removal recently? I think in 2,000 years, he is unlikely to be much more then a line in a table of a history book. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 07:37, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@GeogSage: I would dispute that, this article from 1995 states that "Although he is currently playing a backstage role in the peace process while his American counterpart steals the headlines, even his fiercest critics concede Bildt has put Sweden firmly on the diplomatic map. He could yet end up with a place in the history books as a key player in rebuilding the former Yugoslavia." Sahaib (talk) 14:37, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think one more Swedish politician should be listed, but I'd much, much rather it be Tage Erlander: His uninterrupted tenure of 23 years as head of the government is the longest ever in Sweden and in any modern Western democracy; He was considered one of the most popular leaders in the world by the end of the 1960s; During his premiership, Sweden developed into one of the world's most advanced welfare states, with the "Swedish Model" at the peak of its acclaim and notoriety; He has been compared to other notable Swedish "political giants" such as Palme and Dag Hammarskjöld. (the other two Swedish politicians listed). It's a no-brainer in my opinion. J 947 ‡ ^edits 23:43, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, purely on procedural grounds for now. We already have enough Leader additions in play, and we should probably stop treating the 2% cushion as an unofficial quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure Sweden needs more and there are better options _pbp 22:22, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

If any leader from Sweden - how about the current King Carl XVI Gustaf? Been King for over 50 years, longest in Sweden's history, had 10 PMs under him.Article in, I think, 89 languages. Although his power is limited, so is the British Monarch, but Swedish even more so. Carlwev 17:35, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't mind adding the other Carl. Sahaib (talk) 22:03, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Swap Tony Benn with Jeremy Corbyn

Corbyn has 69 language links whereas Benn has 35 languages. Corbyn gets about 5.7x more daily pageviews than Benn. See also Google Trends, the related searches for Benn include his son Hilary Benn at 2 and 3 with Corbyn himself at 5, 8 and 10 which highlights that a lot of people only search him in relation to those people. The map shows that Corbyn gets over 90% of searches compared to Benn in all countries included. The only metric that Benn beats Corbyn is scholar results with Benn's 22,100 compared to Corbyn's 19,500 but this is can be explained by the fact that Corbyn is still an active politician, recently winning his seat as an independent (see also Template:Jeremy Corbyn sidebar, there is a whole page about his leadership of the party) and so his impact can not be fully assessed.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 09:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose for now. I see a strong argument for adding Corbyn if we had the room, but all of the stats cited just suggest recency bias to me. With so many leader proposals still in play too, I don't have a clear sense of what our balance within and outside of British leaders is. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Corbyn has been a member of parliament since 1983 but I get what you mean. Sahaib (talk) 21:35, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, while I still think the stats largely reflect recency, that's not my primary concern. Corbyn is clearly notable; I'm just more concerned about removing Benn. And unless contemporary British leaders are under-represented, a straight add isn't an option.

I'm not British, but I've actually heard of Been before, and the impression I formed was that some consider him just a notch or two below say Aneurin Bevan 5 in terms of influence. If someone with a deeper knowledge of British politics comes by and says, "Nah, we can probably cut him," I'll change to support.

Since this is a swap within a single heading, quota and representation isn't an issue. But it does show how things are probably going to take more deliberation here on out, which is one more reason I worry about us overloading proposals. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:14, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

It's a funny thing to say about a 36-year MP with an Olympic medal and a Nobel Peace Prize, but Philip Noel-Baker is the clear weakness on our list of British politicians IMO (an opinion mostly based on his incredibly low pageviews). J 947 ‡ ^edits 03:47, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

European politicians

From what I've seen, this is one area which has flown under the radar. Looking to propose a few changes here for some countries that are barely represented, or in Switzerland's case, completely unrepresented in the modern era. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Austria: add Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Karl Renner, and Bruno Kreisky

Though the nation is very well covered in its time with the Holy Roman Empire and Austria-Hungary, the only contemporary Austrian on the list is UN secretary-general Kurt Waldheim. A country of 9 million commands perhaps 3 entries at this level, but there are four who stand out to me so that's what I've proposed.

Arthur Seyss-Inquart – Nazi executed at Nuremberg. Not sure what our coverage of Nazis is like, but I think he makes any sizeable list.
Karl Renner – often referred to as the "Father of the Republics" because he led the first government of the Republic of German-Austria and the First Austrian Republic in 1919 and 1920, and was once again decisive in establishing the present Second Republic after the fall of Nazi Germany in 1945, becoming its first President after World War II
Bruno Kreisky – his article places him in the same vein as Willy Brandt 4 and Olof Palme 5.

Support all

Support all, but especially Renner and Kreisky, as nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mixed

See below comment. Oppose Seyss-Inquart; he wasn't the paramount leader of Austria for long at all. _pbp 05:43, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support for Renner and Kreisky.--109.81.90.69 (talk) 09:30, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose all

Discuss

On a slightly different note, Austromarxism, Otto Bauer, and Rudolf Hilferding are potential additions (though I think they're pushing it). J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To pre-empt any opposes for quota reasons, I think the fact that we have gaping holes in countries like Austria without there being many obvious removals is strongly suggestive that the quota for politicians and leaders is too low. As a matter of fact, the proportion of the pie that politicians/leaders occupy at VA5 is actually smaller than at VA4, despite the fact that we list a tremendous amount more people. It is a quarter of the VA4 people list, but between a sixth and a seventh of the VA5 people list. This area is an obvious place to add to and this proposal exemplifies why. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:28, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not particularly bothered by a paucity of 20th and 21st century Austrians, as Austria is a) pretty well represented by the Habsburgs, b) is not particularly populous in its present form, and c) hasn't been much of a player on the world stage since WW2 and arguably since WW1. I would also suggest that, if any of these do pass, that we REMOVE Charles I of Austria, who was King (Emperor?) for just two years. _pbp 05:43, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Iceland: remove Sveinn Björnsson and Davíð Oddsson

We list three Icelandic politicians, which is (pretty obviously) two too many. Keep Vigdís Finnbogadóttir 5, by far the most well-known.

Support

Support as nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:39, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mixed

Oppose

Discuss

Czech politicians

The leaders sector is quite full, so I do not propose just an addition, but rather a replacement. In both cases, it is a replacement of a Czech for a Czech, so it should not be nationally sensitive. In the first case, it is the elimination of Bořivoj I, Duke of Bohemia and the addition of Ottokar II of Bohemia. Bořivoj is not a particularly important ruler. His importance lies in the fact that he is the first historically documented prince from the Přemyslid dynasty. However, this does not mean that he is the founder of the dynasty. It is just that the real existence of his predecessors is not documented in historiography. On the other hand, Ottokar is an important king (not just a prince) who influenced the history of all of Central Europe. He expanded the Czech territory to the Adriatic Sea. He ruled Austria, Slovenia and part of Italy. He had the ambition to create a Central European empire, but was stopped by the Habsburgs, who thus began their own implementation of this concept. Ottokar is also a character in Dante's Divine Comedy. The interwiki ratio is 27:47.

The second case is the removal of Klement Gottwald and addition of Edvard Beneš. Gottwald was the first communist president, Beneš the last non-communist. Beneš was president for 14 years (including the government in exile), Gottwald for 5 years. Beneš was the real founder of Czechoslovakia (Masaryk was only a symbolic figure), he negotiated its existence and borders at the Paris Conference. He directed its foreign policy for thirty years. He decided on matters that affected all of Central Europe (linkage to France and Britain, acceptance of the Munich Agreement, decision on Operation Anthropoid - the killing of Reynhard Heydrich, entry into the Soviet sphere of influence, expulsion of 3 million Germans from post-war Czechoslovakia, post-war nationalization of 70 percent of industry). Gottwald was a communist, but Stalin did not take him seriously and did not meet with him once during the entire war. He always dealt only with Beneš. Gottwald's significance is only in organizing the communist coup in 1948. But even in this coup, Beneš was actually a more important figure. Gottwald organized the coup by appointing new pro-communist ministers to the government. And he left it up to Beneš to decide whether he accepted this solution. Beneš gave the green light, and the whole "revolution" ended. What would have happened if he had decided differently is another question (there would probably have been a violent coup). The interwiki ratio is 53:61. If you don't want to vote for a replacement, please at least vote for an addition. It would be sad if really important people didn't make it to the list because of some tactic.

Swap Bořivoj I. with Ottokar II

Support

--109.81.90.46 (talk) 08:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per well-argued nomination. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:17, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Swap Klement Gottwald with Edvard Beneš

PASSED

Added 5-0 (enough even if we don't count the IP) Lophotrochozoa (talk) 18:42, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Support

--109.81.90.46 (talk) 08:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per well-argued nomination. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 22:17, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For the little it is worth, I've heard of Benes, but not of Gottwald. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:53, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Masahiro Sakurai

We currently list 19 video game developers. The page they are on has plenty of quota space, so I think we can add one more. Sakurai is the creator of two major franchises, Kirby (series) (almost vital but not quite) and Super Smash Bros. 5. The latter has led to Sakurai becoming a household name among video game fans. 25 interwikis, rated High-Importance by WikiProject Video games.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:48, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely one of the most important video game developers as being responsible for creating the most popular fighting game series. λ NegativeMP1 22:02, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Surprised we have only 19 video game devs. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Lys Assia

Winning the first Eurovision Song Contest is not enough to be included on this list. Johnny Logan (singer) and Loreen who won the competition twice are not listed. In terms of German or German speaking winners Conchita Wurst, Lena Meyer-Landrut, Nicole Seibert and Udo Jürgens are arguably more vital. Assia is currently listed on the talk page as "Low‑importance" in all WikiProjects. Sahaib (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:17, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Swap with Udo Jürgens due to relative German language under-representation currently Iostn (talk) 22:40, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would support this swap as the German version of his article is longer. I also found this list which ranks him as the second most famous Austrian singer after Falco (musician), who is already listed. Sahaib (talk) 23:35, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the suggested swap with Udo Jürgens would be reasonable. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:54, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:05, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Rachel Ruysch

Similarly vital as Judith Leyster 5. Painters are underrepresented IMO (and this is obviously magnified when looking at female painters in particular).

Support

As nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 02:10, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Sonia Delaunay

Her husband, Robert Delaunay 5, is of similar importance – if we could only list one of the two, I'd prefer Sonia.

Support

As nom. Would much prefer a straight add, but second choice swap with Robert. J 947 ‡ ^edits 02:12, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes to add.--109.81.84.33 (talk) 06:48, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes to add, but a strong oppose to removing her husband, the much stronger artist of the two. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes to add, strong oppose remove per Randy. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:43, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Support swap

Discussion

Add Johann Wilhelm Ritter

Johann Wilhelm Ritter discovered Ultraviolet 4 radiation. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:39, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Rudolf Wanderone 5

Solid article, but too much of a cult figure. "Never won a major pool tournament".

Support

Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:05, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Frederick Banting and John Macleod (physiologist)

Medicine list. Banting's the co-discoverer of Insulin 4, youngest Nobel Prize in Medicine laureate, voted the fourth greatest Canadian – I don't think he'd be out of place at VA4 at all, to be honest. His lesser-known colleague Macleod should be listed too, according to our lede.

Support

As nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:00, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:57, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 00:37, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Mixed

Discussion

Remove Donald Eugene Chambers 5

Lesser known biker. Don't think he's among the most vital criminals or people in human history.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:49, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Carlwev 23:55, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:16, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Five interwikis says "not vital" to me _pbp 15:13, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Changing to oppose. He's the founder of Bandidos and not just some biker. Makkool (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the below IP. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

To add something more than personal opinion: Chamber's assumed worth would be covered by founding the Bandidos Motorcycle Club; the second largest outlaw biker group. The lede says this gang has "303 chapters located in 22 countries", which would be more of a global reach than the one city located Chicago Outfit; which got Al Capone to level 4. On a list of 58 organized criminals, i don't think it's a reach to include two bikers with Sonny Barger being the obvious other. I don't think a good enyclopedia would only have all US mafia and not any variety in it's coverage. 118.210.24.72 (talk) 07:21, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move Zelda Fitzgerald and Monica Lewinsky back to socialites

I get that these two aren't usually called socialites, but that section really does seem like the best place to put them. Their literary/activist careers are not even remotely large enough to warrant them being in the section they got moved to. Their main source of fame (which to be clear I do think is large enough to make them vital) is being the partner of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Bill Clinton respectively. (Marion Davies also got moved, but I personally feel like her acting career is largish enough to keep her in the acting section.)

Support move

Support moving Zelda and Monica. Neutral on Marion. Oppose removing all three. 64.124.92.4 (talk) 19:29, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support move per nom, oppose remove Makkool (talk) 12:57, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove outright

Oppose

Comments

As the person who made the change, moving them back boldly is fair game. I will try to propose an alternative grouping to "socialites," especially for people like Lewinsky, who are never referred to that way in their articles. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:51, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Tac nuke socialites. Most listed there should be removed or be moved to other categories _pbp 23:30, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Cedric Gibbons

If we have a bazillion actors and directors, and are beginning to add cinematographers, shouldn't we have at least one art director/production designer? Bro won 11 Oscars (which he designed!) and was nominated for 38

Support

_pbp 18:35, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:48, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:08, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose add. Might support a swap from one of our actors and directors. Having a "Bazillion" of them is a problem, we should not be using it as justification to add others. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 05:56, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Reoganization of the scientists and inventor subpage

@Zar2gar1: has reorganized the subpage for scientists, inventors, and mathematicians so that people from the early modern period are listed by country instead of by field. I disagree, as most of them are most famous for specific fields of science. I especially disagree with lumping inventors with scientists, as it is a different claim to fame. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I actually have no problem if anyone wants to rearrange the early modern figures by specialty; it's definitely a transitional period. My only concern was to separate out early modern, modern, and contemporary figures (still in progress). That said, there are still relatively more polymaths than in the modern period so several may be tricky to sort by specialty. At the same time, while there were immigrants and ideas still crossed borders, I think most scientific activity then was still local enough that the regional sorting is mostly straight-forward. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:19, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add photojournalists

In a failed thread to add Nick Ut, user Iostn suggested all of these as more vital photojournalists than him. I'm not personally familiar with the subject at all, but I'm opening them up for discussion, as we could have gaps in the Photojournalists section.

Add Horst Faas

Two-times Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist, known for covering the Vietnam War.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carol Guzy

Four-times Pulitzer winning photojournalist, and the first journalist to win that many.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:22, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Adnan Abidi

Three-times Pulitzer winning photojournalist, working for Reuters.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:22, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add William Snyder (photojournalist)

Four-times Pulitzer winning photojournalist, and a professor of Photojournalism in Rochester Institute of Technology.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:22, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Geert Wilders

There are many prominent current right wing politicians in Europe that are not listed such as Matteo Salvini (Italy), Alice Weidel (Germany), Santiago Abascal (Spain), Jimmie Åkesson (Sweden), Sylvi Listhaug (Norway), etc. What differentiates Wilders from the above, as well as the few that are listed (Nigel Farage (UK), Marine Le Pen (France)) is that he has been the leader of the largest party in the House of Representatives since the 2023 Dutch general election.

Support

Support as nom. Sahaib (talk) 16:42, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seems vital to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:51, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Swap Akhmad Kadyrov with Dzhokhar Dudayev

Kadyrov served as President of the Chechen Republic for less than a year, and so can be adequately represented by his son Ramzan Kadyrov. Dudayev has more language links and seems more vital but I'm not an expert.

Support

Support as nom. Sahaib (talk) 17:22, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support--向史公哲曰 (talk) 13:54, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Oleg Nikolaenko 5

The fact that he effectively created such a large portion of Internet spam is definitely interesting, but I can't see how he's vital. His impact doesn't really amount to anything more than just Internet history trivia. Only two interwikis.

Support

As nom. λ NegativeMP1 03:35, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:47, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 06:29, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 07:43, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:06, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Swap Tatum O'Neal with Cillian Murphy

Despite Murphy starting his career 23 years after O'Neal, he has more language links (78/40), more pageviews (42/11 million), more acting credits on IMDb (61/37) and has won more awards. O'Neal's father Ryan O'Neal and former husband John McEnroe are both already listed.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Tatum O'Neal is incomparably more famous. (This is a case of recentism, isn't it? Tatum O'Neal receives a good amount of views, considering that she doesn't seem to be active as an actress anymore.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Moscow Connection: by what metric? I only discovered O'Neal after stumbling upon the article List of oldest and youngest Academy Award winners and nominees today. The closest metric I could find would be the Pantheon website's Historical Popularity Index (HPI) which gives Murphy a HPI of 69.24 and O'Neal a HPI of 60.70. Sahaib (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
By the metric that she is famous and I've actually seen her movies. :-) Yes, she seems to have been very, very famous. Which I can't say for Murphy. He is not a household name where I live.
Like, Elizabeth Taylor would probably be on this list just for "Lassie Come Home", "National Velvet", "Little Women". --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:40, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Molly Ringwald is kinda comparable, and she is listed. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:40, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

I think I would support removing Tatum O'Neal only. It is too early to tell how great Cillian Murphy will be. He has only one Academy Award and it was from last year. There are at least a hundred or so actors and actresses who have at least one Academy Award in one of the acting categories. He has other awards, but only two other ones I would consider top-tier. It's also a bit dangerous to use traditional metrics for entertainment-facing professions because more prominent celebrities will skew the metrics. Of course, in acting, celebrity is correlated with vitality but it is just one piece of the pie since there is so much recency bias and it disproportionately helps those who star in critically mediocre blockbusters. I would expect O'Neal to have less pageviews and interwikis than any recurring actor/actress in the MCU, for example. We justifiably don't list Tom Holland who has way more interwikis than either of them (110). I also don't think more acting credits is a selling point; after a certain point, it becomes inversely correlated to vitality since it usually indicates an actor who is mass producing slop (not saying this is the case for Cillian Murphy but just showing why this metric should be taken with a grain of salt). Aurangzebra (talk) 21:12, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Film directors

I went through the list of film directors (Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters#Film 3). Here's who I think should be on it and is missing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Mario Monicelli

One of the masters of Italian cinema. He has 5 films on the list of "A hundred Italian films to be saved" and was nominated for an Oscar 6 times.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Dino Risi

One of the masters of Italian cinema. He has 4 films on the list of "A hundred Italian films to be saved" and was nominated for an Oscar 3 times.
Selected movies: Il sorpasso (1962), Scent of a Woman (1974, better than the remake with Al Pacino).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Ettore Scola

One of the masters of Italian cinema. He has 2 films on the list of "A hundred Italian films to be saved" and was nominated for an Oscar 4 times.
Selected movies: A Special Day (1977).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Peter Greenaway

A director noted for his unique visual style and provocative themes. A Cannes festival regular.
And this list needs to be stirred up a bit.
Selected movies: The Draughtsman's Contract (1982, one of "Top 100 British films"), Drowning by Numbers (1977), The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover (1989).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Nikita Mikhalkov 5

PASSED

Added 4–0. Makkool (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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A Cannes festival regular. One Oscar (Best Foreign Language Film).
Selected movies: Close to Eden a.k.a. Urga (1991).
P. S. And he just has to be on the "Vital articles" list somehow, somewhere. Cause he is very, very respected in Russia. And very influential.

Addition. The Vokrug sveta magazine lists him among the 5 most famous Russian and Soviet film directors: [4]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Addition. He has also been nominated for two more Oscars. And won the Golden Lion, the highest prize of the Venice Film Festival. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:24, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Takashi Miike 5

PASSED

Added 4–0. Makkool (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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A very famous (some would say "iconic", some would say "notorious") Japanese action film director.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 00:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove American film directors

The list contains too many American directors who are hardly vital to the world cinema. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Many seem to be taken straight from the 2015 Oscar shortlist.

The freed-up space can be used for renowned European film directors, like the ones I listed in the section just above (Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People#Film directors). --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:35, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Tyler Perry 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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A TV producer? An actor known for Star Trek (2009) and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows (2016)?

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

One of the most significant African-American film and television producers _pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Purplebackpack89. GauchoDude (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Purplebackpack89. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's also not what he's known for. Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove John G. Avildsen 5

FAILED

Not removed 2–2. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Rocky 5 and The Karate Kid.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Those two combined are enough to pass the bar IMO, Rocky is pretty much the Sports movie, and Karate Kid was very popular as well. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to oppose, I think we should keep the directors of all VA5 films Makkool (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Alexander Mackendrick 5

PASSED

Removed 4–1. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As someone from the UK his works aren't particularly well-remembered today Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
1. How much should how well-remembered something is today effect on the notability of a topic? Aren't the achievements at that time what counts? Makkool (talk) 12:22, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He was born in the US, but he contributed significantly to UK cinema (especially his Ealing Studios comedies are considered all-time greatest classics). Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Harmony Korine 5

FAILED

Not removed 3–2. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Wrote Larry Clark's Kids and Ken Park.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not enough. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

More influential on crticially accalaimed underground film, but that's also a subject worth covering outside of mainstream blockbusters - also note that Gummo and Spring Breakers, which he directed, are both acclaimed Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to oppose, per above Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

@Iostn and Makkool: I'm quite surprised. I think this one is a clear "remove". Korine was very young when he wrote Kids, and then Larry Clark shot one more film based on Korine's scenario. Both films were directed by Larry Clark. And that's all, the films Korine directed himself aren't significant, let alone "vital". Why do we list some minor American directors when there are unlisted famous European directors, some of whom directed dozens of popular films? --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:04, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to list some "underground" directors (which Korine is not anyway), add Peter Greenaway. See #Add Peter Greenaway. In that section, I'm also nominating three very famous Italians directors (just three of the long line), each with 3 to 6 Oscar nominations. You can't compare Korine with them and with Mikhalkov (in the same section). --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think he's vital enough for being part of that 90's American indie and underground movement, even if the golden years of his career were a short span of time. He should propably be best categorised in screenwriters than directors any way. Peter Greenaway should certainly be added, I've noticed a clear lack of representation of UK people compared to Americans in many sections. Makkool (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Leo McCarey 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 13:45, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Duck Soup (Marx Brothers at their best) and some other screwball comedies.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

McCarey's films include many more than comedies (although the comedies are first-class). The Bing Crosby films alone stand out as classics. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:03, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Gerard Damiano 5

FAILED

Not removed 3–2. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Deep Throat. Is this for real?

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:57, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose, since he also directed The Devil in Miss Jones, which is also one of the most well-known represenatives of the Golden Age of Porn - also note that Deep Throat (film) 5 is VA Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to oppose, I think we should keep the directors of all VA5 films Makkool (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Wherever or not he should be removed, I moved him to Adult, where he should be listed Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
1. I've understood that the Adult section should be only for performers in adult film, and that directors should be kept separately. Were there other porn directors in the list? Makkool (talk) 12:22, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  Adult isn't listed as a sub-field of actors so I assumed it should also include directors - as it stands I think Rocco Siffredi 5 and possibly a couple of others listed are more well-known as directors than performers and John Stagliano who I also moved/was proposed here has also been both an actor and director. I think that may leave Damiano as the only person on the list who is exclusively a porn director to begin with Iostn (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Zack Snyder 5

Directed some zombie and DC movies.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

@GauchoDude:, @CopiousAmountofCannons:, @Kevinishere15:, @Lostn:: Normally I don't ping people to participate in a discussion, but this one is one support from closure, and closing it would help archive a big section when this page is way too big ATM _pbp 15:10, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Robert Benton

PASSED

Removed 5–0. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Kramer vs. Kramer. Great! But that's just one movie.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:04, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Greta Gerwig

PASSED

Last vote more than a week ago and two weeks since open. Regardless of how I vote, removal passes _pbp 19:03, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Barbie. (Okay, there's also Little Women with Emma Watson in the filmography section. Maybe the movie is great. I have no idea. :-))

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:04, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TOOSOON, I don't know how she is listed already.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A little too soon. I wouldn't be surprised if we re add her at some point though. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, for now - also directed Lady Bird (film), but I agree we may need to wait just slightly longer. To be honest, I would bet on her being readded though. Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

I'd only support her being removed if Bigelow is kept? I can't remember if there are more than three female directors listed, but three (inc. Ava Duvernay) are up for removal out of not that many women in total. _pbp 02:19, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Purplebackpack89: I have withdrawn the proposal to remove Bigelow. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Moscow Connection: I think, at this juncture, it makes more sense to just close as removed rather than stall this another week by changing my vote. _pbp 19:03, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

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Remove John Stagliano

PASSED

Removed 4–0. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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According to the article, he "founded and owns the Evil Angel pornographic film studio."

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:13, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not vital enough. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:44, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Wherever or not he should be removed, I moved him to Adult, where he should be listed Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Richard Linklater 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Boyhood (2014).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Him and Steven Soderbergh 5 were the leading directors of the 1990s independent cinema movement. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Makkool. A substantial body of work which breaks new ground in several aspects of film presentation. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:47, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Makkool. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Makkool. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:35, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Alan Crosland

PASSED

Removed 4–0. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed The Jazz Singer (1927).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:22, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Would've supported, but The Jazz Singer 4 is VA4 Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

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Remove Ava DuVernay

PASSED

Removed 4–0. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Selma (2014) and some Disney movie.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:26, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In the mid 2010s she was hot with Selma and 13th (film). She does not have a continuing body of notable work. WP:TOOSOON or Too Little.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Damien Chazelle

PASSED

Removed 4–0. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed La La Land (2016). But that's just one movie. And even that one is not "vital" by any means.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:06, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Chazelle is listed for being the youngest-ever winner of the Academy Award for Best Director. He also wrote and directed Whiplash (2014 film), which I wouldn't argue is vital (yet) but is definitely often considered one of the greatest films of the previous decade. Chazelle is still writing and directing large-scale films, and I feel he would be re-listed anyway. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

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Remove David Fincher 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 13:45, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed some solid thrillers / psychological dramas like Seven (1995), The Game (1997), Fight Club (1999).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Would agree with the opinion of the lead sentence "Often described as one of the most preeminent directors of his generation". The language of the nom seems an endorsement rather than a remove. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Randy Kryn: I didn't want to diminish his work when writing the rationale. Rather, I tried to explain why he might have been added. If you or someone finds his contribution to world cinema vital, it's okay with me. My assessment may be wrong. --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:25, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Paul Thomas Anderson 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 17:25, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Magnolia (1999).

Support

Moscow Connection (talk) 11:36, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

~~_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)~~ Have decided to strike my vote _pbp 17:15, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Strong oppose. Completely unserious list if we remove PTA. Reducing him down to just 'directed Magnolia' is disingenuous when he has literally directed a movie on VA5. On TSPDT's aggregated list of best directors of all time (spanning 30000+ ranking lists and surveys from film critics and publications around the globe, arguably the most unbiased measure of vitality possible for directors), he is 60th [5]. We list well over 400 directors. We also list 53 directors in VA4, making him one good movie away from VA4, not in contention for being removed from VA5. He also directed There Will Be Blood 5, which is considered one of the greatest movies of the 21st century and is ranked as the 153rd greatest movie of all time by TSPDT. Aurangzebra (talk) 16:12, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Aurangzebra: Okay, okay! I can withdraw this nomination if Makkool and Purplebackpack89 don't mind. (I must confess I didn't see There Will Be Blood. And when I saw the movie mentioned in the lead, I was puzzled and eventually decided not to mention it in my rationale. After all, it didn't actually win an Oscar.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:54, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But in this case, we should add Mikhail Kalatozov who also appears on such lists of the greatest. Even though he directed just one prize-winning movie, The Cranes Are Flying. (Also I Am Cuba, but it was "discovered" later. And I don't know, I didn't even find it a "real movie", just some crazy camera work.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:54, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. One of the most celebrated and influential directors of the past thirty years. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Maya Deren 5

FAILED

Removed 3–2. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed some experimental short films.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose Meshes of the Afternoon 5 is widely considered one of the most influential and greatest short films of all time. Deren's filmography is sparse but certainly influential. She's also one of the earliest, most significant female filmmakers. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this is someone important outside of mainstream film Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove John McTiernan 5

FAILED

Not removed 2–3. Makkool (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed big-budget action movies like Predator (1987), Die Hard (1988), The Hunt for Red October (1990), Last Action Hero (1993).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:42, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Die Hard 5 is one of the most iconic and influential action movies, that combined with Predator is definitely enough. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to oppose, I think we should keep the directors of all VA5 films Makkool (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Wes Anderson 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:51, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014). (Another one which is on the 2015 Oscar shortlist.)

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:50, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Seems to be thought of as a BFD _pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Constantly brought up in discussions regarding directors. One of the most significant auteurs of the past thirty years. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He's directed a lot more than that, why are you reducing so many directors to a single movie? Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:24, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Delbert Mann

PASSED

Removed, 6-0 _pbp 19:06, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Marty (1955), good, but that's just one movie.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:54, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. User:CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:48, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Kathryn Bigelow 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:51, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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The first woman to win the Academy Award for Best Director. But The Hurt Locker that she won the Oscar for is hardly "vital" or even known enough.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 11:58, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

"The first woman to win the Academy Award for Best Director" is enough to get her across the line. _pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above, and Point Break is also somewhat iconic. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If we remove Gerwig and DuVernay, we should at least keep one prominent woman director from the US Makkool (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove George Roy Hill

PASSED

Removed, 4-1 _pbp 15:06, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Directed Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969) and The Sting (1973) and some other movies starring Paul Newman and/or Robert Redford. His latter movies weren't that successful, and he eventually retired.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:04, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support only a swap with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, oppose simple removal. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:56, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

~~Weak oppose, those two movies were pretty important, I say weak because it pretty much is just those two~~, Support only a swap with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, oppose simple removal. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Would a swap for [[Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid]] be better? Iostn (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
1. Would definitely support a swap with the film. Surprised that it's not included already. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Frank Borzage 5

The first person to win the Oscar for Best Director.

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 12:06, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Changing to oppose, I think there's more reason to trim recent directors rather than older ones. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He seems to have been pretty prolific in his time. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss: @Makkool and Purplebackpack89:
Aurangzebra pointed me to the TSPDT's aggregated list of best directors of all time ([6]), and Frank Borzage is on it. He is number 209.
I must say the list looks like something created by a bot based on some IMDb ratings. And it is very American-biased. But still... The page cites some rave reviews of his work. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:07, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

209th doesn't strike me as high enough to justify being listed _pbp 17:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Diane Nash, Level 5 United States activists

Arguably the main female activist in the 1950's-1960s Civil Rights Movement.

Support

As nom. If editors here, inexplicably and a head scratcher, don't want James Bevel, give Diane Nash the consideration. Nash, as chairman of the Nashville Student Movement, ran the Nashville sit-ins then, most importantly, continued the Freedom Rides when the original group stopped the Ride because they were attacked. Nash said no, violence must not be allowed to prevail against a movement activity or else the movement ends right there. She then worked the Mississippi movement, assisted her husband on his Birmingham Children's Crusade, her and her husband developed and worked the Alabama Voting Rights Project (called the Alabama Project) which became the Selma Voting Rights Movement. She later assisted in the actions of the Chicago Open Housing Movement. Etc. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:00, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom, plus the fact that we are under quota for Activists. Nash seems vital enough to include, and is arguably more vital than a couple of the activists we already list. Interwikis aren't everything. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

A sidekick to a sidekick. Could those events have happened without her? "I'd like to thank the Academy, my husband Jeff, my publicist Ari, the wonderful people at Dream Big Studios, my makeup lady..." _pbp 18:27, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is quite a lot of somewhat notable activists not listed. Here is some I found using ChatGPT 5: Abdul Sattar Edhi, Adam Michnik, Anna Walentynowicz, Berta Cáceres, Chen Guangcheng, Claudia Jones, Faith Bandler, Hugo Blanco, Leyla Zana, Minna Canth, Peng Ming-min, Ruth First, Saifuddin Kitchlew, Viola Desmond, Whina Cooper, etc. Sahaib (talk) 19:01, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Purplebackpack89, with all due respect, will withhold my words although I linger urging to type them. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:47, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The analogy is that the Civil Rights Movement was a team effort, just like a Feature film is (unless you're Sean Baker). There are many parts to that team, and the effort fails with the absence or negligence of any one of them. That doesn't mean every single one is VA5.

Or it's like a sports team. I think most would agree that the Golden State Warriors don't win any of their recent championships without Draymond Green. That doesn't make him as vital as Stephen Curry

5 or Kevin Durant

5 _pbp 00:56, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Would the Freedom Rides have been successful without Diane Nash? No. They would have ended. And when they ended, because of violence, the nonviolent 1960s Civil Rights Movement arguably (and some say likely) would have ended right there. It was a crossroads in the CRM, and Nash took everyone down the peaceful, loving, courageous, and most importantly, correct route. That was after she chaired the Nashville sit-ins, and before she and James Bevel took over a year away from the rest of the SCLC (who spent some of that time in St. Augustine), with Bevel still maintaining the titles of SCLC's Director of Direct Action and Director of Nonviolent Education, to work their Alabama Project, waiting until SCLC decided to join them. The result was Selma. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Purplebackpack89, reading your example above, a more apt explanation of why the Freedom Rides hold a pivotal role in the entire Civil Rights Movement: Consider if Luther Gulick and James Naismith were severely beaten and firebombed by the International YMCA Training School football team. The team, upset that a new sport had been invented, claimed their gaming turf with hate and violence. Because of the injuries visited up on them, Gulick and Naismith decided to abandon the game of basketball, explaining to their friends "trying to gift humanity with basketball is just too dangerous". And then Diane Nash travels to Springfield and teaches the students, and then everybody else in town, how to play basketball. That's the metaphor you're looking for. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:30, 11 March 2025 (UTC) [reply]

I'm not sure that's actually a metaphor. If it is, it's not the one I'm looking for _pbp 00:09, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There were a lot of at-bats in the Civil Rights movement. We can't include everybody who stepped up to the plate at VA5 _pbp 00:59, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(sport metaphors sigh) Diane Nash continued the Freedom Rides when they were discontinued by their original organizers because of violence. John Lewis, who was on the first rides, agreed with her. If those rides had ended because of violence, the Civil Rights Movement would have either stalled or possibly gone in other directions than nonviolence. Nash, as chairman of the Nashville Student Movement, took the lead and decided that the rides would continue. Overall, Diane Nash and James Bevel belong at this level 5 activist level, where the criteria requires literally changing the world. Only they and King did so at such a high and sustained level. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:23, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If Diane Nash is so goddamn vital, how come she only has eight interwikis? For being so vital, why doesn't she even have articles in the 2nd and 3rd most-common spoken languages in her home country? _pbp 02:31, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Something to do with volunteer editors? The number of Wikipedia languages which have an article on someone doesn't seem to matter in the criteria for inclusion. I'm mainly going by the criteria that "Individuals within the People section represent the pinnacles of their field with a material impact on the course of humanity". The 'field' being social activism, with an emphasis on those who had "a material impact on the course of humanity", explains why I've focused on the Civil Rights Movement timeline to show that Bevel and Nash's actions within it were central, as were Dr. King's. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:59, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more film directors to add

Here's a sequel to Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People#Film directors.

Add Mikhail Kalatozov

Mikhail Kalatozov directed The Cranes Are Flying (1957) that won the Palme d'Or at the 1958 Cannes Film Festival. Also, his film I Am Cuba (1964) was "rediscovered" in the 1990s and is now considered a masterpiece.
I, personally, would rather add the actual movie The Cranes Are Flying to VA5 instead. But that doesn't seem realistic, considering there's an obvious (and understandable) Hollywood bias on the English Wikipedia. As for Kalatozov, he often appears on English-language lists of the best directors:
• The Cinema Archives: 46th [7];
• TSPDT: 157th ([8], [9]) — a high place, considering there aren't many people from non-English-speaking countries on that list.

Addition. He also directed the Soviet epic Valery Chkalov (1941) and the feel-good movie True Friends (1954). The latter was restored and is on Russian cable TV, like, every day. So he has quite a legacy to his name, not just the two–three movies usually mentioned on English-language websites. But these films are different from what he is known for in the West. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 18:11, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Dardenne brothers

They are on the TSPDT list of the best directors at number 201: [10]. It is a high place, considering there are mainly Hollywood directors on that list. Here's a direct link to their profile on the website: [11].
They are actually very big in French-speaking countries and won the Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival two (2!) times (in 1999 and 2005).

Support

As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 18:11, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Where do they rank among foreign directors or French directors? _pbp 20:16, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to say, especially since they aren't French, so I can't just google "meilleurs réalisateurs français". But the French Wikipedia article says: "They are presently considered major representatives of European social cinema, alongside Ken Loach and Mike Leigh."
I've browsed some contemporary/"more recent" French directors, and Bertrand Tavernier is not listed on VA5, Claire Denis

5 is listed, Alain Resnais

5 is listed, François Ozon is not listed, Bruno Dumont is not listed. (Not sure what to make of it, other than that our list needs more non-Americans.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Moscow Connection: can't you just, from the IMDB list you have, count which are French, which are American, &c? _pbp 14:20, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Now I see what you mean. I'll count tomorrow. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:59, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bertrand Blier is not listed, Claude Sautet is not listed. Kinda surprisingly... Especially since Blier was probably among the most famous directors in the world at some point in time. I would rather add him... --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Shōhei Imamura, too, won the Palme d'Or 2 times. But he is not listed. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:45, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to the French Wikipedia, when Dardenne brothers won the Palme d'Or with Rosetta in 1999, it came as a surprise to everyone cause Almodóvar was expected to win. And Rosetta, was "violently criticized". But then they won again in 2005 and were very close to winning in 2011. And it looks like every time they make a movie, they make it with the intention to win the Palme d'Or.
I'm not sure what to make of it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:17, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: Sorry for the delay. I tried to count the articles immediately, but that proved to be trickier than I had thought. And I was busy on the weekend.
The French/French-speaking directors go like this:

--Moscow Connection (talk) 15:50, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The TSPDT list of foreign directors goes like this:

Alfred Hitchcock 4
Federico Fellini 4
Jean-Luc Godard 4
Ingmar Bergman 4
Akira Kurosawa 4
Jean Renoir 4
Yasujirō Ozu 4
Andrei Tarkovsky 4
Luis Buñuel 4
Charlie Chaplin 3 (Hollywood director, though)
Robert Bresson 4
Carl Theodor Dreyer 4
F. W. Murnau 5
Michelangelo Antonioni 4
Fritz Lang 4 (Austrian-German and American)
François Truffaut 4
Kenji Mizoguchi 5
Roberto Rossellini 5
Chantal Akerman 5
Sergei Eisenstein 4
Wong Kar-wai 4
Abbas Kiarostami 4
Vittorio De Sica 4
Luchino Visconti 5
~~Powell and Pressburger~~
Satyajit Ray 4
Alain Resnais 5
David Lean 4
Sergio Leone 5
Jean Vigo 5
~~Ridley Scott 5 (English-American)~~
Roman Polanski 4
Max Ophüls 5
Rainer Werner Fassbinder 5
Agnès Varda 4
Pier Paolo Pasolini 5
Jacques Tati 5
Chris Marker 5
Werner Herzog 4
Dziga Vertov 5
Krzysztof Kieślowski 5
Claire Denis 5
Hou Hsiao-hsien 5
Bernardo Bertolucci 5
Edward Yang 5
~~Frank Capra 4 (Italian-American)~~
Hayao Miyazaki 4
Wim Wenders 5
~~Douglas Sirk 5 (German-American)~~
Carol Reed 5
Lars von Trier 5
Béla Tarr 5
Apichatpong Weerasethakul 5
Jacques Rivette 5
Éric Rohmer 5
Michael Haneke 5
~~Elia Kazan 4 (Greek-American)~~
Jane Campion 5
Marcel Carné 5
Nicolas Roeg 5
Gillo Pontecorvo 5
Jacques Demy 5
~~Erich von Stroheim 5 (Austrian-American)~~
Jean-Pierre Melville 5
~~David Cronenberg 5 (Canadian-American)~~
Víctor Erice 5
Claude Lanzmann 5
Pedro Almodóvar 5
Jacques Tourneur 5
Jean Eustache 5
Glauber Rocha 5
~~James Cameron 4 (Canadian-American)~~
Theo Angelopoulos 5
Tsai Ming-liang 5
Straub–Huillet 5
Lucrecia Martel 5
Elem Klimov 5
Jim Jarmusch 5
Ousmane Sembène 4
Ken Loach 5
Bong Joon-ho
Mikio Naruse 5
Mike Leigh 5
Céline Sciamma 5
Sergei Parajanov 5
Michael Snow 5 (Canadian)
Maurice Pialat 5
Djibril Diop Mambéty 5
Andrzej Wajda 5
Věra Chytilová
Peter Weir 5 (Australian-American)
Terry Gilliam 5
Alexander Dovzhenko 5
Jean Cocteau 4
Nagisa Ōshima 5
Abel Gance 5
~~Otto Preminger 5 (Austrian-American)~~
Zhang Yimou 5
Ang Lee 4
Luis García Berlanga 5
Mikhail Kalatozov
Manoel de Oliveira 5
Terence Davies 5
Jia Zhangke 5
Maya Deren 5
Alfonso Cuarón 5 (Mexican-American)
~~Christopher Nolan 5 (British-American)~~
Alexander Sokurov 5
Ritwik Ghatak 5
Pedro Costa
Henri-Georges Clouzot 5
Emir Kusturica 5
Louis Malle 5
Victor Sjöström 5
John Boorman 5 (British)
Alexander Mackendrick 5 (American-Scottish)
Shōhei Imamura
Paul Verhoeven 5
Marguerite Duras
G. W. Pabst
Leos Carax
Fei Mu 5
Hirokazu Kore-eda
Ermanno Olmi
~~James Whale 5 (English-American)~~
Lynne Ramsay (Scottish)
~~Jonas Mekas 5 (Lithuanian-American)~~
Dardenne brothers

But I wouldn't take this list too seriously. It lacks many Italian and Russian directors and mistypes Hayao Miyazaki's name. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:29, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The sources compile 16000+ rankings from critics from every single country with a film industry, including over 100 ballots from the Federazione Italiana Cineforum and 60+ lists just focusing on Russian cinema. It is possible that these Italian and Russian directors you hold highly are less important in aggregate than you thought. Also, out of curiosity, where is Miyazaki's name spelled wrong? Aurangzebra (talk) 04:46, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

«Including over 100 ballots from the Federazione Italiana Cineforum and 60+ lists just focusing on Russian cinema»
— These ballots and lists probably didn't account to much in terms of percentage. Cause you can't possibly not include Dino Risi and Ettore Scola and Mario Monicelli in such ballots/lists. If you do a serious list like this one on Wikipedia pretends to be, you need to balance it considering that English-language movies have plenty of Oscar categories and often win just because they are popular. Compare the sheer number of Oscar categories to just one for foreign films, and you'll understand that 3–4 nominations in that category is a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:01, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

«Where is Miyazaki's name spelled wrong»
— I don't know, I've looked at the page now, and Hayao Miyazaki "looks okay". But when I copy-pasted the names from there yesterday, some got messed up. Hayao became Hazao, Erich von Stroheim became Eric, and someone else was misspelled too.
And the website doesn't look professional or even good. And since it doesn't look good, we can assume that the rating calculation method is not professional or even good as well. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:01, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

G. W. Pabst and Shōhei Imamura should be added too. I'm surprised that G. W. Pabst isn't listed. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Thomas Kinkade 5

Kinkade sticks out like a sore thumb on our painter list. Probably the only painter on our list whose vitality is derived through his commercial impact and not his critical success or impact to art history. Kinkade's vitality derives from the sales of his mass-produced reproductions. His commercial sales are quite impressive but from what I gather, these numbers are self-reported by his company. Under his Reception section, you can see that the quality of his art is universally derided as being "garish" and "twee". If he should be kept at VA5, it should be under Businessmen but his business is not at the same caliber as the other corporations whose executives and founders we list. He also has 19 interwikis and doesn't seem to be a name that is popular or known in the high art world.

If people think Kinkade should be removed, we will have removed 2 painters from VA5 in quick succession. I proposed adding Hugo Simberg in the other thread and that proposal was up 3-0 before it was prematurely closed because it was shoehorned into the removal. I've thought about it a bit more and I'm not as attached to adding Simberg as I used to be since I think there are a few better/equal contenders if people are interested (roughly ranked by my personal opinion):

- Fernand Léger (47 interwikis): Cubism 4 is an influential enough movement to warrant a decent number of representatives. We have Pablo Picasso 3, Georges Braque 5, Robert Delaunay 5, and Juan Gris 5. Léger was enough of a Cubist big dog to be included as well and his Legacy section demonstrates vitality.

- Lucian Freud (42 interwikis): Painters is one of the rare sections that suffers from an anti-recency bias. Besides Jenny Saville 5, I don't believe we list any painters who solidified their place in art history in the 21st century. Freud's works are some of the most expensive paintings of all-time and Benefits Supervisor Sleeping set a record for highest price paid for a painting by a living artist when it was sold in 2008.

- Hugo Simberg (30 interwikis): I proposed this at the time because I thought Scandinavia, and Finland in particular, had minimal representation. But not only do we list some Scandinavian painters (Edvard Munch 4, Carl Larsson 5), we already list a more notable Finnish painter already, Akseli Gallen-Kallela 5 (48 interwikis). Simberg has the fact that he has Finland's national painting, The Wounded Angel, going for him but we can't list every artist who has done significant paintings for every single country especially when we already have representation for that country. Besides, there are other Scandinavian painters who seem to be more prominent that we could list before Simberg such as Peder Severin Krøyer and Anders Zorn. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Keep Kinkade and add Fernand Léger and Lucien Freud per nom. Thomas Kinkade was able to parlay his style into a multi-million-dollar industry and, for better or worse, was also loved by multi-millions. This level of public popularity for an artist is rare, but Kinkade pulled it off. I personally prefer the comparable level 5 Dogs Playing Poker, although that series gained momentum on its own and not by a successful full-scale marketing campaign and industry such as Kincade orchestrated. He worked his own ingenuity, "luck", and unique style into becoming famous for his artworks, but they did sell like back-lit pancakes. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:21, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Kinkade and add Fernand Léger and Lucien Freud, per above Makkool (talk) 18:10, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Add Jerrie Mock to Explorers, Modern, level 5

Mock was the first woman to fly solo around the world. Not a regular pilot, she was an Ohio housewife who decided to fly solo around the world - and did. In 1964, in a single-engine plane (named Spirit of Columbus). In addition to the records set on that flight, Mock went on to achieve further aviation records. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:41, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Even Amelia Earhart didn't try to do it solo. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:41, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Ralph Bathurst

The article Ralph Bathurst 5 doesn't mention any scientific accomplishments unless you count the very vague claim "theorised fruitfully in 1654 on respiration".

Support

As nom. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Iostn (talk) 19:13, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Molly Ringwald

I hardly consider her vital. She has not even been nominated for a major award.

Support

As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:39, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need everybody who was "it" for a minute _pbp 14:23, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Icon on a single decade Makkool (talk) 18:10, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Ringwald was/is a icon of the 80s, and I don't think awards are the only way for an actor to be vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 05:34, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

@TonyTheTiger: Oh no! I hope this is not because of my comment at #Swap Tatum O'Neal with Cillian Murphy.
Btw, if talking about young actresses, I would definitely add Brooke Shields to "models" or whereever. She seems to have been very popular in the 1980s – early 1990s, even if just for her looks. (Even if the only movie of hers that is actually shown on TV in Europe and in Russia a lot is The Blue Lagoon, and I personally find it just abysmal. I wonder why Wanda Nevada doesn't get any exposure, though. I remember watching it, and it was good.) IMO, Brooke Shields is equal to the two (Tatum O'Neal and Molly Ringwald) combined.
P. S. It's strange how Michael Jackson is in every article I mentioned in these discussions. I mean "Tatum O'Neal", "Brooke Shields", "Elizabeth Taylor". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

User:Moscow Connection, Yes you called my attention to Ringwald. Shields was obscenely popular as a model and not so much as an actress. O'Neal has a real drop your draw claim to vitality as the youngest Oscar winner. She did not have a significant period of high level success, but that single claim makes it hard for me to place her on the bubble over so many marginally vital actors. She is a less successful actor than many less vital actors. Her record places her above Shields who was among those at the top of her field for a while. Shields is above Ringwald, IMO. When we get a quorum here, we'll see what the result is.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:57, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Bongbong Marcos

Has served as President of the Philippines (currently the 12th most populated country in the world) for almost two years and will likely serve till the 2028 election. He is also the son of Ferdinand Marcos 4 and Imelda Marcos 5.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 07:57, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Madjer 5

Beach soccer player, when we don't even list the sport in VA5.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:10, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree per nom. We are over quota on sports figures; this move would help. I would not be opposed to a swap per Purplebackpack89 noted below. GauchoDude (talk) 14:20, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, would support swap for the sport Carlwev 17:25, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Weak oppose. Beach soccer should be VA5 and we should list its best player. Beach soccer is a more global sport than the vast majority of other sports we list. If you don't believe me, just look at the countries that qualified for the 2024 FIFA Beach Soccer World Cup; you have teams like Belarus and Oman and Tahiti. There are 193 countries with beach football associations registered with FIFA 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Swap with beach soccer tbh. 50 interwikis for the sport is decent; only 12 for Madjer which is mediocre for a VA. _pbp 18:16, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I also support a swap with beach soccer. I would put the bar on if the sport has been in the Olympics, if we should include the best player of niche sports. Makkool (talk) 10:17, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think appearing in the Olympics is correlated with vitality but it is not necessary. For example, Cricket

4 has never been in the Olympics. Also, every form of auto sport. Also, all the regional yet popular variants of football such as American football

4. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:43, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Adolfo Cambiaso 5

Polo 4 is notable but, with only 4 interwikis, I don't think Cambiaso is _pbp 18:34, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 18:34, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree per nom. We are over quota on sports figures; this move would help. GauchoDude (talk) 14:19, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Swap Kim Campbell with Mark Carney

Campbell had too short of a tenure to be considered vital, similar to Liz Truss or William Henry Harrison who are both not listed. Carney is likely already vital as an economist due to being the Governor of the Bank of Canada for 5 years and the Governor of the Bank of England for 7 years. Searched in the archives and found that User:NorthernFalcon suggested Campbell's removal five and a half years ago.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Too soon. If Carney loses the next election, he will have been no more significant than Campbell, and Campbell probably wins vs Carney on legacy as the first female prime minister. If we want to have a chat about vital Canadian politicians not currently represented, I'd mention former Minister of Everything C. D. Howe from the Modern era, for being the most important minister in the war cabinet, founding the CBC, and founding Air Canada. At any rate, re-discuss after the next federal election. NorthernFalcon (talk) 22:31, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose add: a) We're talking about a guy who's been PM for four days, b) His previous jobs do not carry with them VA5 vitality, c) he probably needs to serve until the next election and probably win that election as well to justify a VA5, and d) Campbell is still the first female prime minister and one of a very very few female Canadian politicians listed _pbp 22:38, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Purplebackpack89: Being the first female leader of a country, doesn't make them automatically vital. Ertha Pascal-Trouillot, Jadranka Kosor, Janet Jagan, Jenny Shipley, Roza Otunbayeva, Sophie Wilmès are all not listed despite serving longer than Campbell and presumably being more vital to their respective countries. Sahaib (talk) 07:00, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You've named six countries whose COMBINED population is only slightly larger than Canada's... _pbp 15:15, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:19, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I wouldn't add any of the Canadian prime ministers, not until all the U.S. presidents are included. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The only U.S. presidents who are omitted are the two who died less than a year into their terms _pbp 02:01, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Moscow Connection: William Henry Harrison didn't do anything except catch pneumonia and die. He was President for a month. He isn't vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:51, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove A. Maria Irudayam 5

I was unable to find the conversation in which this subject was added. The entire sport of carrom is Level 5, the subject doesn't strike me as one of the top sportspeople, very few Wikilinks, and we're over quota on sports figures.

Support

As nom. GauchoDude (talk) 15:41, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 17:29, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:58, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Added by GuzzyG [12] back when he was the only contributor to this project. --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:15, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'll support these cuts, but in spirit i still believe every sport should be covered. Cutting down the sports quota by 100 (should've went down to 800 and i regret not voting for a way lower quota) but then only targeting the unique sports with one person isn't the best as a sports encyclopedia should cover most sports that exist (imagine a global encyclopedia that covers global sports but then cutting out all the unique global sports just because they're not known in the US or UK). GuzzyG (talk) 21:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the sport or game is notable doesn't make the athletes notable. _pbp 12:51, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Bob Lefsetz 5

Had a popular newsletter, but overall, there's not much assertion of legacy or influence. 1 interwiki.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:56, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I really wonder how some of these got added. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Added by GuzzyG [13] back when he was the only contributor to this project. --Moscow Connection (talk) 13:17, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:05, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly articles like Lefsetz were manageable filler so that from the outset the space was filled initially to discourage an onslaught of additions from IPs, they were always supposed to be removed long term when i found appropiate replacements. I can cut down tonnes of this junk now but the vote for every removal thing has really bogged down the list. I'll help manage it though, but these articles are def fill in junk and should be gone. Critics should be 10-15 at most, they are regional journalists with very little impact and they always tend to lean American or Western European. GuzzyG (talk) 21:05, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:04, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Leo Schofield 5

Inspired by the Lefsetz nom and the fact that writers/journalists are over quota, let's do a basic cutdown of random fluff critics i mostly added to fill space. (mightve been 1 or 2 i didn't). Listing 58 critics that are mostly regional US critics is absurd, even moreso that we list more journalist critics than music theorists. Journalism could do with 150 to 250 people. Until journalists have a larger, more global impact, 360 is too much in comparison. But critics even more so. At just a basic comparison point - most of the nommed critics for removal don't even have high NGrams, which should be way higher for someone who works in writing. [14]. I believe this is a good start to work on getting this list respectable and managable.

Now to address Leo, he is mostly known for controversy, he is not globally popular or relevant.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:05, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harold C. Schonberg 5

Admittedly first music critic to win the putlitzer but he isn't a globally recognised writer or influence. We can't have a list that's purely just "first". He seems to be known for being a major critic of Bernstein, a level 4 conductor who is still popular, so it seems he didn't have any long term sway either.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:05, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Henry Taylor Parker 5

This is a local critic for Boston theatre, not someone of widespread global influence.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:06, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jim DeRogatis 5

This guy is known as the guy who went after R. Kelly, which is admirable but not something of world historic global importance.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:08, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Paul Morley 5

Wrote at NME for 6 years and a minor musician, what else is there?

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 22:35, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Dave Marsh 5

Another critic with no global influence, who's article longest section is about his criticism of notable musicians rather than any influence. A level 5 critic should be on the level of Roger Ebert, Robert Christgau, Lester Bangs, Robert Hughes (critic) and Robert Parker (wine critic). He's not on that level. One look at his music criticisms show he's more outlier than influential.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Daniel Mendelsohn 5

This guy is a literary critic, so should be in thought. Literary critics are very established in culture and he shows no signs of influence or global importance in academia. His only work with a article, The Lost: A Search for Six of Six Million is a non-fiction memoir. While an admirable one, not enough for this list.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Walter Kerr 5

Nothing in this article gives me any sense of vitality. No global influence either judging by the artists he's most known for critiquing still being well respected.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:19, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Going to start off neutral on this. While we've got many nominated articles recently, seemingly for good reason, this one seems to pack a bit more juice. American Theater Hall of Fame inductee, namesake of the Walter Kerr Theatre, winner of the 1978 Pulitzer Prize for Criticism, co-wrote Goldilocks the musical with his wife which had the Best Actor and Best Actress Tony wins, etc. Don't know if that's enough, but certainly more substance than the other cuts have brought. GauchoDude (talk) 02:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Wolcott Gibbs 5

One line legacy section, is not globally known.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:10, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 23:35, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Dave Hickey 5

Art critics and historians are established in a sense. Giorgio Vasari being level 4. Important art historians should have more than 3 interwikis and more in the article that shows why they're important besides just "The Bad Boy of Art Criticism".

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:09, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Robert Hilburn 5

Another article which is more "successful career" rather than "historic, global influence".

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:08, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove George Jean Nathan 5

Co-founding decades long dead mags is his only importance and that is a minor blip in scheme of world history. Everything he did, he did it with H. L. Mencken who is actually at a level 5 standard.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 02:19, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:08, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Howard Rosenberg 5

TV critic who's lasting contribution is coining "mixed martial arts". Coining one word isn't of historic importance though. Modern television's criticism leader is Alan Sepinwall, who is not listed. I don't think Rosenberg makes the cut.

Support

As nominator. GuzzyG (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
One Pulitzer Prize. Not impactful enough for this level. GauchoDude (talk) 02:01, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Rudy Giuliani

He was the mayor of New York City during one of the most famous events of the 21st century (9/11). Sometimes called America's Mayor.

Support

Interstellarity (talk) 00:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Same rationale as Purplebackpack89 below, but I'll take a step further. I don't think he fits the bill for one of the most important historical figures ever. If we continue to keep adding more and more to the quota, eventually he'd make a list, but there are several (in my opinion) more prominent politicians still missing to add before I'd add RG. At last count, we were at quota for politicians at Level 5 as is (actually, 7 above). GauchoDude (talk) 02:00, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Generally, I think we need to change our approach to which people we include. Giuliani is not one of the most influential 15,000 humans ever to live. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:57, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Neutral. I don't see him as several people we've removed from VA5, such as John Kerry. If we had a level with 200 American politicians, he'd probably be one of them, but IDK about he at the approximate number of American VA5 politicians. _pbp 00:23, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Actor removals

Remove John Cazale 5

Appeared in only five films and won no personal awards. _pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support all per nom. We have too many American supporting actors. Makkool (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:21, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Jackie Coogan 5

Lot of credits, but mostly as a child or supporting actor. Known for playing a supporting role in The Addams Family 5. I have a hard time saying he's one of the 100 most influential American male actors ever.

Support

_pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

By impact on law and the development of child actors rights - he's important to acting history, California Child Actor's Bill aka "Coogan Bill". By that measure, he's the most notable male child actor (and if we list Shirley Temple at level 4, 5 is good enough for Coogan). Macaulay Culkin should be removed first. GuzzyG (talk) 23:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per GuzzyG. λ NegativeMP1 18:53, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

The first major Hollywood child star, according to Britannica ([15]). --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:27, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove James Dunn (actor) 5

Is a Supporting Actor win enough to get him on the list? Largely undistinguished otherwise. Had a few periods of brilliance and long periods of unemployment. _pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:14, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Richard Farnsworth 5

Never won any Academy Awards or anything like that. _pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:14, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Carl "Alfalfa" Switzer 5

17 interwikis is low for an actor. No critical acclaim, mostly known for playing Alfalfa in Our Gang/Little Rascals, which is a better VA5 candidate than he himself _pbp 19:38, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:38, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:14, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Thomas Meighan 5

Doesn't feel like his legacy from the silent era has stood the test of time

Support

_pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Macaulay Culkin 5

Mentioned above as a potential removal candidate. Doesn't have much of a legacy aside from the Home Alone movies; very little awards _pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I would be willing to consider adding Home Alone, but I support a straight removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose simple removal, would support removing him if we add Home Alone. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:44, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Roy Scheider 5

Ain't won shit. _pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Jaws (film) 5 seems to be his main claim to fame, and that's already V5. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:49, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Not just "Jaws", "All That Jazz (film)" is very famous as well. And "The French Connection (film)". --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Charles "Buddy" Rogers 5

Just hasn't stood the test of time. Was in Wings (1927 film), and while that won Best Picture, he wasn't even nominated for best Actor. _pbp 01:42, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 01:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:10, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:30, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Starring in one Oscar-winning film isn't enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove James Charles

PASSED

Removed 6-0 per WP:AVALANCHE. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:07, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

His prominence only came about in 2016, and quickly came to a halt around 2021-2022 save for his attempt to start releasing music. Sure, during that time he became a queer icon of sorts and was noteworthy for his internet makeup work, but that is less than a decade worth of a career to assess. And ever since those allegations came out about him, I don't think anyone has really viewed him in a similar way since and he has, in a way, been swept under the rug by modern pop culture and media. So that narrows down any possible years of vitality for him to about 5-7. Did he do anything particularly exceptional in those 5 to 7 years? No, not really. He only has 25 interwikis. Sure, as I said earlier he may have been a queer icon of sorts for a while and he won some lower-level awards, but I feel that his infamy more or less boils down to only his big controversies.

I cannot imagine any way he would be one of the 15,000 most important people to ever live. I don't even think he'd make a V6. It's purely recentist Ameri-centric pop culture bias. We seriously need to reconsider what makes contemporary celebrities like this worthy of being considered "vital".

Support

As nom. λ NegativeMP1 19:57, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 12:17, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:00, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Recentism.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 16:02, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:00, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Ralph Fiennes

Seems like a pretty obvious oversight. Acclaimed four-decade career. British Academy Award win. Three Academy Award nominations. Major roles in Schindler's List 5 and the Harry Potter (film series) 5.

Support

As nom. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:19, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Too many actors as is. _pbp 00:04, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Yes, Ralph Fiennes fundamentally changed the entire world and James Bevel didn't (insert gif of Homer Simpson backing into the bushes here). Randy Kryn (talk) 13:37, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I support listing him but with how many actors we have I'm not sure a straight add will pass, you should probably propose a swap with someone else. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:19, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, not feeling as strong in this proposal as I was before. I don't really care to continue updating this proposal. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 23:46, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cosmetics people cleanup

The cosmetics subsection is very 20th century Amero-centric. In many cases the look is in higher renown than the person who created it _pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Kevyn Aucoin 5

We're poised to remove James Charles and this guy has 20 FEWER interwikis (only five total) _pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose; light on wiki stats because make up isn't a predominantly big field for wiki enthusiasts, but Face Forward is widely considered to have introduced Contouring to the general public and Aucoin's probably the most defining modern make up person. Cosmetics isn't a wiki heavy field but one that has a larger in world impact, it deserves a couple names and this guy is the big modern name (Max Factor's the old one). Here's a ChatGPT check that articulates it better; [16]. GuzzyG (talk) 03:07, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Remove Raymond Bessone 5

0 interwikis. ZERO. Not even one in French. Greatly eclipsed by Vidal Sassoon 5, who I think stays. _pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Zero interwikis should be an automatic removal IMO. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:18, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article does not make any claims to vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Mr. Kenneth 5

2 interwikis. Bouffant hairstyles MIGHT be VA5 but Kenneth, I don't think so. _pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 16:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose, "world's first celebrity hairdresser" means something in fashion history. The section isn't Americo-centric. Cosmetics has 10 people, for a centuries long industry that affects and influences a large proportion of the world and has massive impact on society, a large proportion of people it impacts however does not edit wikipedia, which reflects these wiki stats (it'd be different if a video games or cricket guy has low stats as these are two wikipedia enthusiast types of fields). I don't think large, very influential industries that are covered very little should be cut when there's much larger problems out there. These fields are just easy to cut because they're not wikipedia enthusiast type fields and the importance is harder to articulate. This manifests on the level 4 list with heaps of athletes with many individual sports having more than the 2 fashion designers we list. (despite fashion names being known globally to a larger proportion of the population). The cosmetics field section should be merged with a fashion one however, with models, designers and cosmetics all in one place to be accurate to the industry. Here's a ChatGPT influence check that can explain his impact better [17], "the first hairstylist to be widely recognized by name" plus his impact on the three most stylish women of the 20th century (Jackie Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, Audrey Hepburn) ensures his place in cosmetics history (and in larger history with those 3). GuzzyG (talk) 03:34, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Remove Zachary Taylor

Served a brief presidency, nothing special that makes him vital. Similar to William Henry Harrison and James A. Garfield.

Support

Interstellarity (talk) 20:19, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Questions? four Olliefant (she/her) 16:10, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:59, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Was also a significant general in the Mexican-American War _pbp 20:47, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above, and I would also support adding Garfield, we should cut the failed candidates like Thomas E. Dewey 5 and Walter Mondale 5 instead. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Ictinus

This architect is pretty obscure, despite the sum of his works, and doesnt really have a long enough legacy to say he is one of the most notable people. There's a reason his page is still a stub despite 20 years.

Support

As nom. -1ctinus📝🗨 22:11, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. @User:1ctinus, is youre user name related to this fellow? Just curious. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:07, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add James A. Garfield

Someone mentioned this as a possible addition. Had a more important presidency than William Henry Harrison.

Support

Interstellarity (talk) 11:52, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per my own comment above, we should cut the failed candidates instead of presidents that served. Kevinishere15 (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
IDK if he should've been removed _pbp 18:30, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He was barely even president for six months and his legacy section does not suggest to me that he left a significant enough impact within those six months. I doubt him being among the 50,000 most important subjects of all time solely because of the fact he was president and outlived another president who only served thirty days. He needed to have actually accomplished something important during his tenure. Also, according to his article, his time spent as president was so short he is frequently left out of presidential rankings. We should probably go by that as well since he seemed to have accomplished nearly nothing to earn him a spot here. I'd say that this proposal probably comes off as Ameri-centric, but I'm not sure if the U.S history classes I actually took even mentioned or discussed him beyond a brief footnote. I could potentially be swayed if there's something I'm missing but I'm leaning towards him being near completely irrelevant. λ NegativeMP1 18:48, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per NegativeMP1. This man is a footnote. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:46, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Would support cutting U.S. presidents dramatically before adding more. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:59, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Replace Dong Biwu with Chen Yun

Acting chairman of the People's Republic of China (a symbolic office) for a brief period that was relatively inconsequential compared to a man who a very sigificant role in the era of reform and opening up and was seen as only second to Deng Xiaoping, not to mention the key role he played in the economy of the early Mao Zedong era.

Support

As nom. The Account 2 (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Makes a lot of sense to me. Being the acting state representative during a time period such as the Cultural Revolution almost speaks more about how irrelevant Dong was during that time. OrientalTraveller (talk) 20:09, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move or remove Margo St. James

If Margo St. James 5 should be listed it's as an activist. It has been said that Americal activists are overrepresented, but I can't judge if she is important enough.

Move to activists

As nom Lophotrochozoa (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove

_pbp 11:53, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

Discussion

Lophotrochozoa (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove most of the failed presidential candidates

Remove Ross Perot 5

A businessman who ran twice as a third party candidate, he didn't win a single state either time and he didn't crack the two party system like he wanted.

If anyone wants to argue he's vital as a businessman, I've left an option to move to businesspeople. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:58, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Most third-party candidates are not vital at this level, but I think Perot is vital because he had the second strongest performance of a third-party candidate in the 20th century. No third-party candidate after him came close to his margins. Interstellarity (talk) 00:28, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, it somewhat helped that no 3rd-party candidate since had his checkbook. _pbp 16:57, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably the most significant recent third party candidate. Questions? four Olliefant (she/her) 16:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Businesspeople

Discuss

Remove Thomas E. Dewey 5

Governor of New York who ran for president twice and lost both times, I'm not sure he passes the bar, he doesn't seem much more important than say, Alf Landon, another governor who ran and lost, unless you want to argue his work as a prosecutor is important enough? Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:24, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:24, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:58, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Dewey defeats Truman. He is vital enough to include. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per QuicoleJR. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above Questions? four Olliefant (she/her) 16:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Previously nominated for removal in late 2023 _pbp 23:43, 27 March 2025 (UTC) Gotta ask: is Governor of New York (or California or other large states) considered chop liver? _pbp 23:45, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Walter Mondale 5

Jimmy Carter's vice president, who ran for president and lost in a landslide against Reagan, he doesn't seem any more vital than Hubert Humphrey, another vice president who ran and lost by a lot. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:33, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:33, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:58, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I think listing most/all of the failed major party candidates for president is sufficient. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Mondale was also a senator and ambassador Questions? four Olliefant (she/her) 16:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Article was Removed from VA5 in late 2023 but added back in late 2024. Is it a good idea to discuss him for the third time in a year and a half, the second time in six months? _pbp 00:04, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Of all the ones to compare to Alf Landon, this might be the most apt. _pbp 00:20, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Al Gore 5

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawing this one, I stand by the rest though. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bill Clinton's vice president, he very narrowly lost to George Bush in the 2000 election, the closeness of the election and the Bush v Gore decision pushes him above Mondale but he doesn't seem more vital than Samuel J. Tilden, another one who narrowly lost and had his election decided in a different way than usual. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:43, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:43, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Most vital out of all those you listed, after losing the election he was notable for his environmental activism for which he won a Nobel Peace Prize whereas Tilden retired and died soon after. Sahaib (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also oppose here. He is more than just a VP who failed at running for the presidency as Sahaib pointed out. GauchoDude (talk) 23:08, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lost by as close as it gets, then won a Nobel Peace Prize _pbp 23:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per discussion above. It's as clear as it gets. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Mitt Romney 5

Governor of Massachusetts who ran against Barack Obama for president and lost, not much more vital than Alf Landon, who did the same thing and who we don't list, his party also went in a completely different direction so he didn't have much influence. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:57, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Simply because we've been here twice before in a year and a half and he was retained both times. _pbp 00:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think listing most/all of the failed major party candidates for president is sufficient. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above Questions? four Olliefant (she/her) 16:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Article was proposed for removal in late 2023 and proposed again in late 2024, with the two previous proposals both failing. _pbp 00:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

I don't like the Alf Landon analogy. Alf Landon was the Governor of a fairly small state who got eight total electoral votes. Two of the guys up for removal lost very very close elections (so close that major media outlets declared them the winner before declaring them the loser). One of them won a Nobel Prize. One of them organized an Olympics. _pbp 23:43, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would also note the amount of American bloat we have in actors, activists, and several other sections. I again suggest we address that before culling more American politicians. _pbp 00:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this is only "most" of the post-1944 losers. There are pre-1944 losers, such as Lewis Cass

5 and John C. Breckinridge

5, that have not been nominated _pbp 23:49, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I second this. Politicians usually have more influence and importance than celebrities (actors, musicians, activists, and more). Pop culture is usually contemporary and the celebrities that are focused on at one point will likely not be relevant in 10 years save for some truly exceptional instances. While removing some politicians is likely inevitable at one point in an effort to reduce this bias, recent celebrities should be cleaned out first. λ NegativeMP1 00:25, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely think we could stand to cut more American celebrities, and I also think we could cut a few more American authors. Politicians aren't what we should be concerned about right now, because, as far as people go, it is one of the most important careers. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:36, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Sam Altman

This may be a case of recentism, but since we list both the AI boom 5 and ChatGPT 5, then this is worth a shot. Altman is currently the most prominent figure in the AI industry. His company, OpenAI, has developed ChatGPT, as well as DALL-E and Sora (text-to-video model).

Support

As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)
Per nom Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose. I think we need to set very strict standards for including BLPs. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:57, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

On one hand, he objectively meets the standards of what we typically look for at present when listing businesspeople ("Altman is considered to be one of the leading figures of the AI boom.", CEO of the company that made a highly important product, etc.). But on the other hand, I feel like we're cracking down more on the people we list as vital, and that includes businesspeople. So depending on what our standards are or are not, I could be swayed either way. Don't know right now. Note that I'm not taking recentism into account here as even in the few years these subjects have been vital they've left a enough of an impact for V5. λ NegativeMP1 23:12, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Shehbaz Sharif

Prime minister of Pakistan from 2022–2023 and 2024–present. He is the brother of Nawaz Sharif 5 and was the longest-serving Chief Minister of Punjab (the country's most populated province).

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 20:13, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Demetrius I Poliorcetes

Ancient military leader, person of Plutarch`s "Parallel Lives", famous for his life and inventions in siege' tactic Ibidem (talk) 00:07, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibidem (talk • contribs) 00:08, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Min Aung Hlaing

Has led the country since the 2021 Myanmar coup d'état 5.

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Responsible for 2021 Myanmar coup d'état 5, Myanmar civil war (2021–present) 5, as well as a significant driver of Rohingya genocide 5. The Account 2 (talk) 18:01, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lophotrochozoa (talk) 20:15, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Wang Jingwei

Significant figure in 20th century Chinese history. longtime and main interparty rival to Chiang Kai-Shek, and led the Japanese puppet Wang Jingwei regime during WW2.

Support

As nom. Zinderboff (talk) 22:34, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Tony Scott

Brother of Ridley Scott 5 and the director of Top Gun 5. Many of his other films have been successes at the box office.

Support

As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)

Oppose

Too many American directors as is _pbp 16:44, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Swap Peter Thomas (announcer) with Tom Kenny

Kenny is the voice of SpongeBob SquarePants (character) 5 in SpongeBob SquarePants 5, the Ice King in Adventure Time 5, the Narrator and Mayor in The Powerpuff Girls (recently removed from the vital articles list) and Heffer Wolfe in Rocko's Modern Life. He also voiced major characters in Johnny Bravo, CatDog, Transformers: Animated and Talking Tom & Friends. Thomas is mainly known for narrating Forensic Files (which is not vital).

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 20:20, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:32, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal, weak support addition. We need to cut down the number of actors, but I think SpongeBob's voice actor is one of the ones that could remain. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:43, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:03, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose Addition. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:03, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Support remove, oppose add. We have too many actors as is _pbp 20:51, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: the voice actor section is relatively small and Kenny seems to have a similar level (or above level) of vitalness compared to those already listed like Charles Martinet 5, Christine Cavanaugh 5, Rob Paulsen 5, Tara Strong 5 and Veronica Taylor 5. Sahaib (talk) 21:39, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Ravachol

Pulling from the article's lede, Ravachol is the cultural archetype of the anarchist terrorist and his attacks are widely regarded as (a) ushering in the 1890s European terror wave with which anarchism would be long associated, and (b) associating terrorism with symbolic gestures (like attacking a place or cultural symbol). He is a major figure in European history.

Support

As nom czar 02:51, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I support that choice too. (Note that I wrote some of the page kinda fast and there is a lot more to say for example in the legacy subsection, there is much more to say and I didn't do all the sources about the influence of Ravachol - far from that) Aristoxène (talk) 06:21, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Opening sentence clearly mentions his influence on anarchism. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Martin Balsam 5

We have too many American film actors, and I don't think this guy makes the cut. One Tony and one Oscar isn't enough for vitality, especially when the Oscar is for best supporting actor. He also doesn't seem like a particularly important or influential actor.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:56, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 13:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 14:58, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, weak because I disagree that awards are the best metric for judging whether an actor is vital, I'd put more weight on things like being in large amounts of movies or having an iconic role/roles Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:22, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Junji Ito

The lead states that "Ito's work has developed a substantial cult following, and Ito has been called an iconic horror manga artist." He is best known for manga such as Uzumaki and Tomie, which have been adapted into an anime and film series respectively.

Support

As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)
Per nom. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 04:07, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. A very recognizable name in the field of horror manga. Dillbobther (talk) 19:32, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove M.I.A._(rapper)

Despite an immensely successful single and additional success on other releases, has won very few music awards and is more of a political/conspiracy activist through music and various other mediums. Would not consider her a VA for Hip-hop/Rap.

Support

As nom. Dillbobther (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 23:01, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 00:39, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Sahaib (talk) 09:12, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I don't think people understand how much her two first albums changed the hip-hop game. Both Kala (album) and Arular are considered some of the greatest and influential albums of the 21st century so her success is not just limited to one single. She is even included on Esquire's list of the top 75 most influential people of the 21st century. Not rappers, not even musicians, but people in general. I don't particularly like her music and I lost a lot of respect for her in the last few years but it's impossible to deny the effect she's had on society and music this century. We have much better contenders to remove from the recent hip-hop era. On top of the Skepta 5 and Wiley (musician) 5 proposal below, we can remove Lil Jon 5 who arguably has less critical awards and less interwikis and just has a few popular singles that people can recognize (but so do hundreds of other recent musicians we don't list). Aurangzebra (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per above - and also I don't think making the hip hop section more US-biased is a particulrly useful thing to do Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per Aurangzebra. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:49, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Skepta and Wiley (musician)

Grime music 5 doesn't necessarily need people to represent it. Whilst Wiley is known as the "Godfather of Grime", there is quite a lot of non-vital people with honorific nicknames in popular music. See also pageviews compared to other British rappers such as Central Cee and Stormzy (who are too recent to be added).

Support

As nom. Sahaib (talk) 10:30, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
support Carlwev 10:53, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:02, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:53, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose without any potential swap - not into the idea of cutting influential figures in hip hop outside the US Iostn (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To add - in the hip hop section currently, literally the only non-Americans other than these two are Drake (musician) 5 and M.I.A. (rapper) 5 - the former of him currently has a majority in favour of removal right above this. Iostn (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Iostn: there is others already listed that could be considered hip-hop artists/rappers (some more than others): BTS 5, Wizkid 5, Blackpink 5, KSI 5, Stromae 5, Psy 5, DAM (band) 5, Yo Yo Honey Singh 5, Arashi 5, Agnez Mo 5, Falco (musician) 5 and Gorillaz 5. Also Bad Bunny 5 and Daddy Yankee 5 from Puerto Rico which is part of the US. Sahaib (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Add Travis Scott

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I believe that the rapper Travis Scott should be added to the Level-5 Vital Article List on Wikipedia. I believe that he should be added due to his various award wins and nominations from various different outlets, his critically and commercially-acclaimed third and fourth studio albums: Astroworld and Utopia, his well-known collaborations with the organizations Nike, Dior, and McDonald's—among others. Aside from the previously noted facts about Travis Scott, additional reasons I believe he should be added are how he gained notoriety for concert safety, mainly due to the Astroworld Festival crowd crush—Scott has also had various fashion ventures, multiple notable sneaker collaborations, Fortnite collaborations, and has made contributions to the film-industry. Due to these reasons and his partnerships with the respective companies, I believe that Travis Scott should be added to the Level-5 Vital Article List on Wikipedia. Sincerely, JustTryingToBeSmart (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Nom JustTryingToBeSmart (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Not without a swap. Too many American musicians as is _pbp 16:36, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Contemporary pop culture musician. I don't think he's done nearly enough for the music industry besides just be popular. λ NegativeMP1 20:36, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While he is popular, I wouldn't say vital or impactful to the same degree as the other Lv.5s. The collaborations mentioned don't speak much to the importance of him as a Hip-hop/Rap VA. It's like adding Shaq based on his brand collabs and not his basketball career. Dillbobther (talk) 13:07, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion