Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard

Welcome to the Christianity Noticeboard This page serves to coordinate the various discussions taking place throughout the Christianity-related project talkpages. Even though , there are numerous Christianity-related projects, with many different conversations going on at the same time. This Noticeboard hopes to achieve some kind of order in keeping track of the various goings-on. You are welcome to add to the discussion.

Recent changes of Christianity-related talkpages

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D: Edit made at Wikidata
r: Edit flagged by ORES
N: New page
m: Minor edit
b: Bot edit
(±123): Page byte size change

29 July 2025

diffhist Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Methodism work group 15:38 +546 TarnishedPath talk contribs (Notifying of requested move using MovePlus)

25 July 2025

diffhist Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bible 07:33 +2 Doric Loon talk contribs (→2 Thessalonians 3:10: Clarify)
diffhist Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bible 07:32 +503 Doric Loon talk contribs (2 Thessalonians 3:10)

Alerts for Christianity-related articles

Did you know

28 Jul 2025 – Vidal (martyr) (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Kingsif (t · c); see discussion
20 Jul 2025 – Hermitage and chapel of Saint-Thibaut (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Yakikaki (t · c); see discussion

Articles for deletion

30 Jul 2025 – Cashibo (mission) (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by JMWt (t · c); see discussion (0 participants)
29 Jul 2025 – Louton family (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Jahaza (t · c); see discussion (0 participants)
28 Jul 2025 – St John's Wood Road Baptist Church (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Mad Jim Bey (t · c); see discussion (2 participants)
28 Jul 2025 – Edgar M. Louton (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Oaktree b (t · c); see discussion (4 participants)
28 Jul 2025 – A. G. Louton (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Oaktree b (t · c); see discussion (4 participants)
26 Jul 2025 – The Small One (book) (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Go D. Usopp (t · c); see discussion (5 participants)
26 Jul 2025 – Atlanta Interfaith Broadcasters (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Mvcg66b3r (t · c); see discussion (2 participants)
22 Jul 2025 – Shirt of Flame (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by PanagiotisZois (t · c); see discussion (4 participants; relisted)
22 Jul 2025 – Jeff Grant (attorney) (talk · edit · hist) AfDed by Some1 (t · c) was closed as keep by Jolielover (t · c) on 29 Jul 2025; see discussion (9 participants)
22 Jul 2025 – Genetics and the Book of Mormon (talk · edit · hist) AfDed by Bluethricecreamman (t · c) was closed as delete by Liz (t · c) on 29 Jul 2025; see discussion (14 participants)

(5 more...)

Proposed deletions

29 Jul 2025 – Curelom and cumom (talk · edit · hist) was PRODed by 12.75.41.70 (t · c): Does not meet notability criteria as there are no independent reliable sources
22 Jul 2025 – National Union of Baptist Churches Costa Rica (talk · edit · hist) PRODed by JoeNMLC (t · c) and endorsed by Bearian (t · c) on 22 Jul 2025 was deleted

Categories for discussion

20 Jul 2025 – Category:Mars Hill Church buildings (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Numbermaniac (t · c); see discussion
20 Jul 2025 – Category:Mars Hill Church people (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Numbermaniac (t · c); see discussion

Templates for discussion

21 Jul 2025 – Template:Rectors and sub-deans of St George's Cathedral, Georgetown (talk · edit · hist) TfDed by Jonesey95 (t · c) was closed; see discussion

Redirects for discussion

23 Jul 2025 – Apocryphal (talk · edit · hist) →Apocrypha was RfDed by Oiyarbepsy (t · c); see discussion
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26 Jul 2025 – File:Sam Kinison & Rodney Dangerfield.jpg (talk · edit · hist) (on Sam Kinison) was FfDed by JayCubby (t · c); see discussion

Christianity

Erika D. Crawford

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Lacks notability, there are no sources in the article about her which aren't from her church or from her university. Looking for better sources only gives passing mentions like this or this. A redirect to African Methodist Episcopal Church#Bishops might be an WP:ATD. Fram (talk) 07:39, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Religion, Christianity, and United States of America. Fram (talk) 07:39, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Connecticut, Mississippi, New York, and South Carolina. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:47, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: No proven notability in reliable sources. At very least the article should be draftified as it's obviously not ready for primetime, with placeholder text and external links in the article body. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 13:48, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Religion News Service is a reliable source for her election as bishop in a church with episcopal polity.[1] --Jahaza (talk) 18:12, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Either Redirect or Draftify at Mahal AU's option. --Jahaza (talk) 18:23, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cashibo (mission)

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No refs on the page for many years. Nothing much else found to consider against the notability standards for inclusion JMWt (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity, Switzerland, and Peru. JMWt (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The only inbound link is from the DAB page. The Spanish article seems to be a direct translation of this one. The original author is Olinadnegrab (talk · contribs), who has no other contributions other than the aerial photo of the site, which has been transferred to Commons and appears in the Spanish article. Also, since it's not in the history of the page in the edit summary anymore, here's the 18-year-old edit I made when splitting this article.—Ketil Trout (^<><!) 07:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've got 5 hits on Swissdox for "Cashibo" and 53 for "Indicamino"; most results for both seem to be about this topic. It might be a few days before I can analyze the sources or expand the article, but I believe the topic is notable. Toadspike [Talk] 12:49, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Looked through the Cashibo results. Sigcov: [2], plus "Landwirtschaftshilfe in Peru leisten" in the St. Galler Tagblatt of 19.11.2004. Not sigcov: [3] and another offline-only article. Leaning weak keep; if this is kept I'd it move to Indicamino. Toadspike [Talk] 13:16, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Louton family

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I've been unable to find any SIGCOV other than Rollin Grams's book Stewards of Grace, which is not an independent source, as he is a member of the family. Jahaza (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Academics and educators, Lists of people, Christianity, South Africa, and United States of America. Jahaza (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Not seeing any independent WP:SIGCOV to support an article on this topic. Even if Stewards of Grace were independent, I would want to see evidence of other sources discussing the "Louton family" as a topic on its own, similar to other "known" families like the Kennedy family (for example). I was hoping that Stewards of Grace would cite works we could use to establish notability, but from a quick skim of the footnotes I don't see anything promising. Cheers, Suriname0 (talk) 16:12, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: The only RS identified by Cite Highlighter are 12 and 13... 12 is listed as a blog, so not helpful. 13 is an article about after-hours stock trading, not about a religious missionary family... This is a walled garden, we've already deleted a few members and few if any of the individuals are notable. As I said elsewhere, a bunch of non-notable individuals lumped together doesn't make them notable. Oaktree b (talk) 20:05, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

St John's Wood Road Baptist Church

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The article is short, sourced only from the subject's website, and has at times been edited to read as a website for the church. I don't believe the article establishes notoriety (e.g., 50 members, lacking secondary sources). Mad Jim Bey talk 22:43, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture, Organizations, Christianity, and England. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:48, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
delete not seeing the notability. Mangoe (talk) 02:48, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A. G. Louton

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Appears to be a non-notable religious person, coverage is limited to a description of events attended or handled by the individual. Nothing found outside of the obituary. Oaktree b (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Oaktree b (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Christianity, and Arkansas. Shellwood (talk) 14:18, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not only do I doubt this person would satisfy GNG, but I also have concerns that the use of obituaries as sources may run afoul of WP:OBITUARIES, namely: they are often not intended to be neutral, but to eulogize (or, in more rare cases, actively condemn) the subject [...] [O]bituaries may emphasize aspects of a subject's life that are not particularly significant otherwise, such as philanthropy or charitable donations Gommeh 🎮 17:55, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge This person is not independently notable, but the family has been the subject of some books and articles. Merge into the louton family page of which he is the patriarch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fredthefighter (talk • contribs)

Edgar M. Louton

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Subject appears non-notable. Zero sources found to show notability, Gbooks has nothing. Gsearch only brings up this Wiki page or mirrors, then peters off. No lasting notability found. Oaktree b (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Oaktree b (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Christianity, and Michigan. Shellwood (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I am not sure why you say zero sources to show notability as there are sources in the article. I also used WP:TWL to check newspaper archive and there any several mentions of this guy from the 1960s. However, it appears to me to be routine coverage as it is just announcements of his talk in the various towns he saw in his speaking tour. The talk appears to be basically that he went to africa and is going to tell people about it. I don't really think that makes him notable. I say routine coverage as they were not presented as reported stories with by-line but more like guest speaker announcements by the churches he was visiting. I don't really see stuff from the 80s to show that his beliefs were notable outside of the church he practiced in. Czarking0 (talk) 15:27, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in the article don't show notability, they describe a pastor doing church things, that's rather routine. Oaktree b (talk) 15:56, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Unfortunately this looks like a bit of a walled garden. That will need some more cleanup. I'm going to see what I can prod. Jahaza (talk) 19:44, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge I propose this is merged into the Louton family article. The family biographer, Rollin G. Grams (also a family member), conducted an in-depth study of the family's influence as one of his academic projects, and the book very clearly documents the family's influence as a missionary power bloc in South Africa. However, agree with nom that the subject is not notable independent of his family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fredthefighter (talk • contribs) 16:18, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I'm not even sure the family is notable. A bunch of non-notable people lumped together doesn't make notability. Oaktree b (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Small One (book)

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Lack of notability outside of being adapted into the titular Disney short film. Could not verify with more sources. Go D. Usopp (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature, Disney, Christianity, and United States of America. Go D. Usopp (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak redirect to The Small One. A bit of a strange one — there are a ton of sources on Newspapers.com that predate the Disney short film, but they are almost all about the radio adaptations or albums that were based on the story, and none provide any real reception or analysis (e.g. [4] [5] [6] [7]). It does seem to have been a popular story even before the Disney adaptation, but there's almost nothing I can find about the original book itself, and I'm not really seeing anything that couldn't easily be covered within a "Background" or "Original story" section in The Small One. MCE89 (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This seems like it was apparently quite a popular book back then, but coverage is weirdly hard to find. Kirkus Reviews apparently had a review of this book per their index. I don't have access to it unfortunately, but I asked over at RX, and hopefully someone'll be able to get it. Found quite a bit of those very short reviews, [8], but I wouldn't count them towards NBOOK. This also had an entry in The Christmas Encyclopedia. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 19:43, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Another short one in Booklist: [9] and Library Journal [10] ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 20:00, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kirkus review is here. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:53, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per the multiple reliable sources coverage identified in this discussion but not opposed to a merge and redirect to The Small One, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria says:
A book is presumed notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria:
1. The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.
Sources
1. Crump, William D. (2001). The Christmas Encyclopedia. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland & Company. pp. 262–263. ISBN 0-7864-1034-5. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Internet Archive.
  The book notes: "Classic children's book written by American author Charles Tazewell (1900-1972), published in 1947. The setting is Old Mexico a few days before Christmas. ... Bing Crosby provided a narrative recording of the story for Decca Records in 1947. The Walt Disney Company adapted the story as an animated cartoon short, The Small One (1978), which centered only around the Judean boy and Small One. ... Disney subsequently published a book version of the cartoon under the same title in 1995, written by Alex Walsh with a foreword by television celebrity Kathie Lee Gifford."
2. Abernethy, Cecil E. (1947-11-29). "The World of Books". The Birmingham News. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The review notes: "This tale is told by a Mexican padre to a little boy. Pablo, who is having trouble with his stubborn donkey. The padre says it is pride, not stubbornness, and he tells the boy about Small One, a lame and worn-out donkey who is sent by a wood-cutter to be sold to the tanner. The wood-cutter's son thinks this an unworthy destiny for so good a friend. He tries to sell him at the horse-auction and about town, but he has no success until evening, when as he is about to submit Small One to the tanner, a man named Joseph buys the donkey to carry his wife Mary to Bethlehem, and Small One earns his destiny and his pride. The story is beautifully managed; the illustrations by Franklin Whitman are good. This will be a nice gift for a nephew or niece between the ages of 6 and 9."
3. H. H. L. (1947-12-10). "The Small One, By Charles Tazewell, Sketches and color painting by Franklin Whitman". Columbia Missourian. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The article notes: "Mr. Tazewell's book takes an indirect approach to the Christmas story A donkey is his central char-acter, and around this scourged, slow-footed beast is woven as tender a short tale as has warmed the heart since "A Christmas Carol." Like the Dickens classic, its appeal embraces all ages. Following on the heels of "The Littlest Angel," the cherub darling who fluttered into national heroism, this intimate defense of donkey stubbornness took on the mellow glow of legend after Bing Crosby gave a radio dramatization of it. Now vividly illustrated by Franklin Whitman, it has been copyrighted in Great Britain, the British Dominions, and in the Republic of the Philippines."
4. N. T. R. (1947-12-14). "The Small One". The News & Observer. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The article notes: ""The Small One" is the name of a donkey whose fond young master tries hard to save from the tanner. He finally finds a purchaser who will use the donkey to transport his wife to Bethlehem. The man's name is Joseph, the woman's name is Mary, and the events of the night make "The Small One" the most celebrated donkey in the kingdom. The little book is colorfully illustrated and should make an appealing gift for 10-year-olds."
5. "Book Reviews". Oklahoma City Star. 1947-12-14. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The article notes: "This story for those who like Christmas and small donkeys concerns the reasons for the frequently observed aloofness of the donkey tribe-an aloofness which is by no means stubbornness or laziness, but proper pride which is also a shield against all adversities. There is beauty, tenderness, and love in the account of the donkey a small boy loved, but had to sell, of the kind man who bought him, and of the important burden he carried to Bethlehem, where his tired old eyes were among the first to see the King born to reign over men, and centuries, life and death. His tired feet had carried him straight into a miracle and all the small donkeys since then have taken time to stand and dream of the Small One."
6. Falanga, Jean Brehmer (1947-12-23). "Books for Vermonters". Rutland Daily Herald. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The article notes: "For reading aloud to the younger generation on Christmas Eve, there is a nice little book called The Small One, big Charles Tazewell, Illustrated in colors by Franklin Whitman (Wineton, $1), The Small One was a donkey whose master decided to sell him to the tannery because he was no longer able to do heavy work, but the tale of how the master's son found a new owner for the faithful little animal is a-new interpretation of the Christmas story that will appeal to children."
7. "Children's Books". The Buffalo News. 1947-12-20. Archived from the original on 2025-07-28. Retrieved 2025-07-28 – via Newspapers.com.
  The review notes: "Countless parents who have heard this beautiful story on a Decca recording by Bing Crosby will be delighted to find this small volume. It is the story of a small boy who found out why donkeys are not really stubborn, as people say, but proud, because one donkey long ago was chosen to go with Mary and Joseph into Bethlehem. Illuminated initial letters, readable type and delightful illustrations."
8. The sources found by MCE89 and ARandomName123.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow The Small One to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good finds. I think this is really more of a WP:PAGEDECIDE question. We have a fair number of short reviews, which I agree is enough for a weak pass of WP:NBOOK, but is there really enough to say about the book on its own to warrant a separate page? I’m still leaning towards thinking this is better covered in a section of The Small One describing the original story. MCE89 (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The very detailed encyclopedia entry about the book in Crump 2001 is a particularly strong source. I think there is enough coverage in the many reviews to support a detailed "Reception" section and a standalone article such that a merge to the featurette article The Small One would be undue weight. Cunard (talk) 07:20, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Atlanta Interfaith Broadcasters

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Hasn't been updated in a long time aside from templates; mainly promotional. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 04:27, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television, Christianity, and Georgia (U.S. state). Mvcg66b3r (talk) 04:27, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Google shows a lack of reliable independent sources. As for presumed notability, the fact that it is only locally broadcasted high channel makes me say no.

Czarking0 (talk) 05:30, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep significant coverage here, also some of their programming is being preserved in a museum collection as shown here, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:27, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 21:43, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Shirt of Flame

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Firstly, the page can't seem to decide of the phrase "Shirt of Flame" refers to a poison dress as it appears in mythology and folklore, or clothing worn by people burned at the stake. Secondly, regardless of which direction the article were to lean in, it fails notability. If one is to view Shift of Flame as referring to a poison dress, said content can be simply placed in the poison dress article. If the article is instead to focus solely on the Christian usage of it being the clothing worn by burned martyrs, then it simply fails notability. Most of the sections are unsourced, with no indication that "Shirt of Flame" is a major concept in discussions concerning Christianity. PanagiotisZois (talk) 23:12, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Mythology and Christianity. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:36, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the "clothing that sets its wearer on fire" being ported into its own section under poison dress, as it's essentially another variation of the same literary trope and I believe the prevailing interpretation of the term "Shirt of Flame". I don't think the concept of "what someone was wearing when burnt at the stake" has much connection to the term "Shirt of Flame", I couldn't find many references from several Google searches, it was always the Arthurian-style Shirt of Flame popping up. --Aabicus (talk) 01:54, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep The term "Shirt of Flame" is ambiguous and could refer to various unrelated concepts e.g. metaphorical usage, fantasy items, songs, or poetry. Without a clear, primary topic or sufficient navigational utility, it might be confusing or unhelpful.--Policking (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
~~Merge and disambiguate~~: I don't really have a good overview, but judging from the comments above I assume the different uses are somewhat disparate. So I think it would be best to cover the respective uses of the term in their respective contexts, Poison dress, Tunica molesta and Death by burning, and the make this a disambiguation page refering to those very loosely connected subjects. Daranios (talk) 11:08, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Is there more support for a Merge and, if so, please identify ONE target article. On the other hand, if there is support for disambiguation, make that clear. Thank you.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:02, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't want to put one merge-and-redirect target forward, because the content refers to these different loosely related topics without one clearly preferred one in my view. So I guess I should modify my !vote:

Keep for now, as it contains worthwhile content, with the goal of making this a disambiguation page and splitting and merging said worthwhile content to the three articles Poison dress, Tunica molesta and Death by burning, respectively. All of which are editorial steps and can be done after and independent of the deletion discussion. Daranios (talk) 09:53, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity Proposed deletions (WP:PROD)

CFSO-TV (via WP:PROD on 14 May 2025)

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Christian religious leaders: further follow-up required, see Category talk:Religious leaders#Clergy categories

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References

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