Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism

Diocese page titles

I am quite a bit annoyed by the unnecessarily long page titles such as Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Paris, etc. These should obviously be at Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Archdiocese of Paris. Is there a guideline somewhere that prescribes this preemptive disambiguation? If so, why does it seemingly target only Catholic dioceses? Compare Roman Catholic Diocese of Westminster with Diocese of Canterbury. Surtsicna (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

The Catholic Diocese of Rome is also without a prefix. The reason it's on most dioceses is consistency. It's the same for Anglican and Episcopal dioceses. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 04:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Consistency between which pages? These examples seem to point to an inconsistency. Surtsicna (talk) 10:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Other than the primary dioceses, that is, Rome and Canterbury, all dioceses have their denominational prefix.

I imagine that many years ago there was a discussion and consensus on this. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 17:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

But that is not correct. Check Category:Dioceses of the Church of England. The pages are titled Diocese of Oxford, Diocese of Chester, Diocese of Gloucester, and so on. The denominational prefix is exceptional. I would like to know if there is a guideline or a naming convention, and where the appropriate venue for a naming convention discussion would be. Surtsicna (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I wonder what WikiProject Anglicanism thinks about that; per WP:RCC and other sources, the "Roman Catholic Diocese of..." convention is 18 years old, and was decided on for consistency among page names even for when there is not necessarily ambiguity. I think we'd need some massive consensus to change roughly 3000 page names. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 23:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I imagined that would be the reason. Interestingly, WP:CONSISTENT addresses this situation: we have Georgia (country) because of ambiguity, but we do not have Spain (country) for consistency with Georgia (country). Apparently, the Anglican dioceses do not need these appendages while the Catholic diocese pages have unnecessarily long and unnecessarily complicated names. We should discuss it. Surtsicna (talk) 23:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In the case of Philadelphia, there is both a Roman/Latin Rite Catholic jurisdiction along with a Ukrainian Catholic one. Dcheney (talk) 04:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, no, there's only one Archdiocese of Philadelphia, as there's a Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Philadelphia. I'm firmly for DarthStabro's proposal. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The proposal to discuss this with WikiProject Anglicanism as well, Pbritti? Surtsicna (talk) 10:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I meant to add you. We should have consistency, and your proposal is wise. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Providence College

Providence College has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 03:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Antiqua et Nova

I just created Antiqua et Nova which was just issued by the Vatican. It addresses "the anthropological and ethical challenges raised by AI." Thriley (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Joseph Cucchiara

This stub has been tagged as unreferenced for 15 years. I'm not clear as to why this priest was notable. Is he a servant of God? Bearian (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

@Bearian: I'm getting good hits searching the Chinese version of his name. There's a hospital named for him Hong Kong and it looks like he's pretty well-documented for his mission activity there. CCing Uriel1022 to ask if there's enough to establish notability. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Can one of you please add in those sources? Bearian (talk) 06:37, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

@Bearian: @Pbritti: Let me do some digging. Uriel1022 (talk) 14:59, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I see the work. Bearian (talk) 17:58, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

RfC on dropping preemptive disambiguation

Should we drop the prefix "Roman Catholic" (or "Catholic") from the diocese and archdiocese pages where no disambiguation is needed? 11:08, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Survey

• Yes, because unnecessary disambiguation is contrary to WP:CONSISTENT and of no help to anyone. In a vast majority of cases, the Catholic diocese is the only diocese so named. We can also see Anglican dioceses without the denominational prefix in categories Dioceses of the Church of England, Church of Ireland dioceses, Dioceses of the Scottish Episcopal Church, etc. Dropping the unnecessary prefix also spares us the constant "Catholic" vs "Roman Catholic" discussions. Surtsicna (talk) 11:08, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
• Agree. It is mostly clear enough in most instances I’m aware of. But my only little gripe would be if there is a distinction between i.e. a Catholic of similar diocese that also leans Anglican, Orthodox or Protestant (or whatever branch of Christianity there be). IMO, that would need a brief clarification at the lead. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 18:07, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
• Agree: See my thoughts in a somewhat dated note on my user page. For cases requiring disambiguation, we should use a parenthetical. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:45, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) Yes. If there is no disambiguation needed, because a page is already WP:PRECISE enough without it, then adding it just because it might not be in the future is unnecessary. Times where it is necessary can be handled on a case-by-case basis with a hatnote or disambiguator if needed. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 06:17, 7 February 2025 (UTC)
• Agree per the reasoning above; the term "Roman" is completely superfluous in most cases and may cause confusion as denoting the Latin Church (or the Roman Rite) rather than expressing a communion of churches (i.e., the Eastern Catholic Churches). We may consider drafting an essay or guidance piece to cite when removing superfluous "Roman" usage. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2025 (UTC)
• No. AIUI the point here is that Anglican Diocese of Portsmouth and Roman Catholic Diocese of Portsmouth are fine (Diocese of Portsmouth is a WP:DAB page listing both), but if one of them has a unique name, then the preferred article title should be "Diocese of", and good luck to you if you're looking at search results and don't know which denomination that is. For example, there is no Roman Catholic Diocese of Oxford, but there is an Anglican Diocese of Oxford. (The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Birmingham includes the city of Oxford.) According to this, the preferred article title might be "Diocese of Oxford" and "Archdiocese of Birmingham"? And we wish you lots of luck if you're in Birmingham and didn't know that the "Archdiocese" is the Catholic one and the ordinary Diocese of Birmingham is the Anglican one. I'm inclined to go the other way: Maybe we should require all of them to be WP:PRECISE enough that the title "unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects". Adding "Anglican" or "Roman Catholic" to the front "distinguishes it from other subjects" very effectively. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:19, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  "Archdiocese of Birmingham" already "unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects" because there is no other archdiocese of Birmingham besides the Roman Catholic one. That is WP:PRECISE. We already have short descriptions telling us which denomination any particular diocese is. As it stands now, when the reader types in "Archdiocese of Birmingham" (which is obviously what anyone familiar with it would type, rather than "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Birmingham") Wikipedia suggests an article titled "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Birmingham" with the short description "Catholic diocese in England". Obviously the page title should be what the reader types in and then the short description would be provide further information (rather than repeat information). Surtsicna (talk) 20:47, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

• yes, per above. i see no reason for this extra clutter in article titles. ... sawyer * any/all * talk 21:30, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

Ok, we have a six-to-one consensus in favor of this. Does anyone know how we should go about implementing this? There are two considerations: 1.) when disambiguation is necessary, should it be done by parenthetical and 2.) should it be phrased as "Latin Church", "Latin Catholic" (like the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions), or "Roman Catholic" (like now)? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that we start by moving articles with the unnecessary prefixes and then deal with cases where disambiguation is necessary. Surtsicna (talk) 07:48, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

RFC on merger between 'Misa de gallo' and 'Midnight mass'

Other than the Spanish name, there is no significant difference between Misa de Gallo and Midnight Mass. There is considerable overlap between both articles.

Please discuss the merger proposal in Talk:Midnight_Mass#Merger_Discussion. Itzcuauhtli11 (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

New article Theology of the Priesthood (Catholic Church)

Hi all,

I just created a new article that was in the list of recommendations. Theology of the Priesthood (Catholic Church).

Check it out and let me know what you think.

Peace, Thorn6130✝ (talk, ask questions, dispute) 23:10, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Its a very nice article by the way I fixed a red link for you. Roc1233 (Talk | Edits) 22:40, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Extra Eyes on Pope Francis Please

H.H. is currently hospitalized with a "complex polymicrobial infection." The Vatican has just announced that in addition to the aforementioned medical condition, he now has pneumonia in both lungs. Not trying to be alarmist, and it's entirely possible that this will blow over. That said, it never hurts to lean forward a bit. The page is indefinitely semi-protected but a few more editors adding it to their watchlist won't hurt. Thanks... -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:31, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

watchlisted. Hail Mary... ... sawyer * any/all * talk 01:10, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

It's been on mine but I'll make a point of showing the flag a bit. If the worst does come, a 1RR might be worth considering? ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:17, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I would support that. Clearly a page that would warrant that if it came to be. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:26, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Except in subject areas specifically authorized either by ARBCOM or the community, editing restrictions and page protections are not imposed preemptively. So we can cross that bridge if/when necessary. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:59, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

A just released medical bulletin reports the Pope's medical condition has taken a serious turn for the worse. [1] -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

WikiProject Catholicism Discord server

For greater collaboration: https://discord.gg/bAqTPgCBec ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 23:47, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Archbishops

Why do we use terminology like "Archbishop-elect", if they're not elected? Also, does the suffix mean, they've not yet assumed their position? Example Richard W. Smith, recently appointed Archbishop of Vancouver. GoodDay (talk) 03:29, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Election can refer both to being chosen by a large group of people or a singular person. Canon law uses this term; see canon 1014. It refers to someone who has been chosen to be a bishop but has not yet been ordained. -designate is commonly used for someone who is already a bishop and has been named to a different see but has not yet taken posession. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 03:37, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

So... Smith hasn't yet become Archbishop of Vancouver? GoodDay (talk) 03:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Not until his official installation. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 03:47, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

The term "elect" is used in circumstances even where there are no votes cast in an election (i.e. Order of Christian Initiation of Adults, where the catechumens are also known as the elect and participate in the Rite of Election, which welcomes those seeking to be baptized/confirmed into the Church at Easter without entailing an election). —Bloom6132 (talk) 04:03, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

@Bloom6132:, I've sought more clarification here. GoodDay (talk) 03:44, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Discord Link

Hey everyone, looks like the Discord invite link is not working, can someone update it and/or send it to me? FarmerUpbeat (talk) 19:57, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

Whoops. Updating. https://discord.gg/bAqTPgCBec ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 20:15, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

@Darth Stabro Application submitted! Benedictions, FarmerUpbeat (talk) 03:43, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Vatican journalists

I have created drafts for two journalists who specialize in Vatican reporting: Andreas Englisch and Gerard O'Connell. They may be of interest to members of this project. Thriley (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! It's good to know about these journalists.

I'm curious if there are AfC reviewers in this project. What are the pros and cons of being an AfC reviewer? I have submitted two drafts for review, so I was thinking of a "fairness" arrangement where I would review a couple of drafts in the AfC backlog for each of my drafts that are reviewed.  Spes  21:19, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Good article nomination for Classical theism

Hello, everyone! I have recently nominated the classical theism article for a "good article" title. I am currently looking for a person willing to perform a review. The article is very polished and should pass the review without any hurdles. Brent Silby (talk) 20:41, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Only "The Most Reverend" in infobox?

Quizical has been deleting prefixes such as "His Excellency" and "His Grace" from infoboxes of bishops/archbishops bios, asserting that these are "not used in info boxes". He also claims that this is "not just my preference", but cannot/will not cite anything in MOS:INFOBOX (or any other part of MOS) that supports his changes. Thoughts? —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

It's definitely appropriate to include them. They're an honorific prefix. Why wouldn't it be? ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 10:53, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

It's not appropriate. Not everything is or needs to be explicitly stated in any part of the MOS, there are style principles which also exist by an established custom which is a form of consensus. We don't overcomplicate info boxes and it's the established custom to only use the relevant "Reverend" clerical style as the "honorary prefix" in the info boxes for clergy and bishops who aren't also cardinals. Just because other honorary prefixes may sometimes be used within the church doesn't mean that we should also include them here. "His Reverence" also exists as an honorary prefix for clergy who aren't bishops, but we would never also include that in info boxes. Same principle applies for bishops except for those that are cardinals or popes as they are no longer normally styled as "The Most Reverend". You may also care to check out the articles about particular popes, such as Pope Francis, as you will notice that "His Holiness" is not used in the info boxes for them. Quizical (talk) 12:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Now that I'm looking at what's actually being argued about, I agree. "Most Reverend" is sufficient for bishops, adding "His Grace" or "His Excellency" before it in addition is unnecessary. At a glance I originally thought this was about including anything at all, which I see is not the case. I apologize for misreading.Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 12:26, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree that it is unnecessary in the info box and it is also very definitely not the established custom. Consistency across articles is also a style principle. Many articles on bishops include "His Grace" etc in a separate "style box". That is where it belongs, not at the top of the info box. Quizical (talk) 12:42, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

"Not everything is or needs to be explicitly stated in any part of the MOS" – what a nice cop out to ignore WP policy/guidelines and consensus. Diffs please re. your nebulous concept of "established custom" or it didn't happen. And just to be clear – you scrubbing "His Excellency" and "His Grace" from multiple articles does not create an "established custom". —Bloom6132 (talk) 12:39, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

If you are going to comment in an offensive manner that is your problem and won't achieve anything. There already is an established consensus in practice on this matter which you are ignoring due to your own personal preference. Quizical (talk) 12:51, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Feel free to take offence at comments where no offence was intended – be my guest. The fact that you had to remove "His Excellency"/"His Grace" from the infoboxes of four articles[2][3][4][5] demonstrate that your stylistic preference is far from "established consensus". For you to peddle such nonsense as established consensus is laughable at best. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:49, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

No offence may be intended, but your tone is very aggressive and confrontational. WP:AGF. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 23:55, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't the one who made this pointed edit summary: "If you're concerned about personal preferences you should be concerned with your own rather than mine." It really puts the "personal" in no personal attacks. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:19, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pudencio Andaya Jr.#Requested move 22 March 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pudencio Andaya Jr.#Requested move 22 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 10:28, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Roman Catholic bias in the articles on pre-Schism popes (and elsewhere)

Firstly, I would like to say that I have a bias towards Eastern Orthodoxy (even if I currently do not believe in it) which is my primary motivation for bringing this to attention.

I've noticed whilst hopping from wikilink to wikilink of the popes in chronological order that the vast majority of popes beginning from Pope Anacletus (Pope #3) all the way until Pope Damasus II (#151) have the "Church" section of their infoboxes labelled "Catholic Church". There are a few exceptions, St Peter is labelled with a "See" not "Church" and is simply called first Bishop of Rome and Antioch; Pope Linus (#2) and Pope Julius I (#35) are simply left without a "Church" or "See" in their infoboxes; then there are 2 popes labelled "Catholic Church Orthodox Church" (see 1 and 2) and the popes from Silverius (#58) to Gregory I (#64) "Chalcedonian Christianity", one pope whose name I forgot has "Church of Rome", linking to the Diocese of Rome. There could be more exceptions but I do not have the time to search for them.

Clearly, the editors of the St. Peter and St. Gregory articles realised at some point that (indirectly) calling Peter and Gregory "Catholics" would be anachronistic and biased towards the RC POV. So what then is the difference between them and the other pre-schism Popes?

It seems all popes beginning from Linus are given the anachronistic short description "Head of the Catholic Church from ... to ...". As well, I have consistently noticed throughout the biographies of the pre-schism Popes (and MANY pre-schism Christian saints) that the word "Catholic", referring to the RCC (not catholic, one of the marks of the Church) is often misused (e.g. "the Arian bishop received the letter of the Catholic bishop") when clearly the terms "orthodox" (the academic term, not directly referring to Eastern Orthodoxy) or at least "Chalcedonian" or "Nicene" (depending on the time period) should be used for neutrality. The theological/ecclesial deviations between what is now the RCC and EOC only began to sprout circa AD 600, and they would not begin to manifest greatly until the years 800-1000, finally schisming in 1054.

Another clear example of the RC POV in these articles is that of Pope Liberius, a saint in the EOC, but not in the RCC. The honorific prefix "Pope Saint" was missing from Liberius' infobox for the longest time until I recently edited it to be included, since the WP practice for people venerated as such in any major Christian confession is for "Saint" or an equivalent to be included, even if they are considered heretics by most other Christians. Even now, the list of Popes refrains from adding "St" from Liberius' entry, unlike other papal saints.

Now, regarding which Church the popes led from 33 to 1054 seems to be a matter of bias and clearly the RC POV has come out on top, for the most part; not that it's particularly shocking (popes are of the greatest interest to Roman Catholics, after all). Personally, I suggest replacing the "Church" section in the infoboxes on the popes from Linus to Damasus II to state either Early Christianity, Nicene Christianity, or Chalcedonian Christianity, depending on their time period, and "(Church of Rome)" added afterwards, linking to Roman Catholic Church, for clarification. A footnote could also be added, stating something along the lines that the Pope lived before the Great Schism (exact wording or the footnote's usefulness can be discussed later).

Regarding the short description, a clear choice would be "Bishop of Rome from ... to ...", perhaps with an ordinal added before, since "Bishop of Rome" is 13 characters shorter than "Head of the Catholic Church" and is neutral as can be. This is what is done on Pope Gregory I's short description, although combined with "Head of the Catholic Church".

Overall, I hope these changes can be carried out in due time to make the pope articles better than they were before; clearly they still have room for improvement, not just in this aspect of bias.

𝔅𝔦𝔰-𝔖𝔢𝔯𝔧𝔢𝔱𝔞? 19:34, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

RfC on new non-contemporary images of popes

Firstly, I would like to state that I am of the belief that articles are boring without images, which is what motivated me to bring this up. As well, I'm bringing this up as I would like some help cropping all the images, even if they are not used for the pope article themselves.

Recently, as I was adding images for papal saints as part of a revamp of the List of Eastern Orthodox saints, I noticed time and time again that there would always be 3 types of images always available for every pope on Wikimedia Commons: the Round Portraits in Saint Paul Outside the Walls, the portraits from the 1842 publication The Lives and Times of the Popes and the Portraits from Biblioteca comunale di Trento. During a 2020 RfC, the former two categories of images were discounted from use, primarily due to consensus that the images were of low artistic and pixel quality. The issue that they are imaginary images was also brought up, however it was correctly pointed out that the lead image does not have to be an actual realistic representation of the figure, merely of some notability. This brings up the latter category of images (uploaded in their entirety in 2021?) into question for their potential usage on many obscure popes (practically all from after the 1st century and before 1054).

The Portraits from Biblioteca comunale di Trento (henceforth Trento Portraits) are 1. of high pixel quality and 2. of arguably much better artistic quality compared to the remaining options (the aforesaid forbidden Round Portraits and 1842 portraits, or else no image). The only issue with them is that they need to be cropped, as they are nearly all scans of book pages (although a few are already cropped).

Currently, the only pope article using an image from the Trento Portraits is that of Pope Caius, and I believe it demonstrates that these images can be used appropriately for just about the rest of the obscure popes without lead images (or any images). It is cropped well, still retaining a high pixel quality and most importantly, displays the subject person in their notable attributes (pallium, early papal vestments, and halo if the pope is canonised).

Hope this contributes to making the pope articles even better!

𝔅𝔦𝔰-𝔖𝔢𝔯𝔧𝔢𝔱𝔞? 20:06, 1 April 2025 (UTC)