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A1: The current title reflects the consensus established in the most recent move discussion (22 January 2024). Two previous widely attended move discussions (30 June 2020 and 1 April 2021) had resulted in this page being titled Uyghur genocide. Please see Logs and discussions below for the full list of move discussions. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the first two times establishing an affirmative consensus that the title "Uyghur genocide" is an appropriate name for the article. The third debate, immediately following a 12 January 2024 discussion that was closed as "not moved", citing WP:NCENPOV as the naming convention guideline justifying a shift to the new name.
Persecution of Uyghurs in China was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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The estimated number of victims detained in this Wikipedia article currently reads: "est. ≥1 million detained". I am proposing that we remove this estimate, and replace it with the actual number of Uyghurs which we know are detained.
The methodology for coming to this "1 million detained" number is extremely faulty, and I do not believe it lives up to Wikipedia's standards to warrant it being used as the official Wikipedia estimate.
"Analysis of data contained in the latest police documents, called the Xinjiang Police Files, showed that almost 23,000 residents - or more than 12% of the adult population of one county - were in a camp or prison in the years 2017 and 2018. If applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean the detention of more than 1.2 million Uyghur and other Turkic minority adults."
To illustrate how faulty this methodology is, let's apply this methodology to the United States, I could say, "well 10% of the black population in one county (i.e.: the south side of Chicago, Compton, etc.) is currently imprisoned. If applied to the United States as a whole, the figures would mean the imprisonment of more than 4.2 million black Americans."
This estimate would be off by a factor of 10x. You cannot simply take one county, which likely has a much higher black incarceration rate in this example, and state that the entire United States has this incarceration rate.
Similarly, we do not know if that one particular county that the BBC cited has a much higher Uyghur incarceration rate than the rest of Xinjiang.
I am proposing that we remove this "est. ≥1 million detained" figure, and replace it with the actual number of Uyghurs which we know to be imprisoned, such as "almost 23,000".
You have a point. The source says, "if applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean the detention of more than 1.2 million Uyghur and other Turkic minority adults." It doesn't actually claim this is an estimate. I suggest we remove the field. TFD (talk) 18:38, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I could support the removal of the field and covering the 'numbers' issue in text as the source does ("if applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean …). I think Classicace's suggestion of using the 'known' figure (almost 23,000), would be wholly the wrong approach. To use his own analogy, this would be like presenting the 'South Side' black Americans as being the only US blacks incarcerated. Pincrete (talk) 05:20, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because, per policy, articles cannot make statements of fact unless there is consensus in reliable sources. We had the same discussion for Gaza. TFD (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Uyghur genocide isn't real. Anyone can just walk around Xinjiang and see that there's Uyghurs everywhere and they're just fine. No one who goes to Xinjiang comes back thinking that there's a Uyghur genocide. It's entirely a western propaganda invention for the low-IQ diabetic fox news watchers.
The Gaza genocide, on the other hand, is real (albeit incomplete). If you walk around Gaza (note you'll need to be an aid worker to get in), you'll see dead bodies and starving children everywhere. You'll see lots of destroyed buildings and people with horrible injuries from the mass bombing campaign. 2600:4041:4234:C600:CC48:17F9:254E:527D (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This conversation is beginning to get a bit forumy. the decision not to call the persecution of Uyghurs in China genocide is derived from the inconsistency of the appellation within academic best sources. This is in part because there is disagreement with academics as to what constitutes genocide. There are certainly broader genocide definitions that would include the actions of China. These are unpopular with international organizations largely because the same definitions would describe current actions of several western Liberal Democracies as genocide too. When there is a dispute among otherwise reliable sources Wikipedia describes the dispute, we don't take sides. That is what this article should do. Simonm223 (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah they claim that there isn't a consensus on the subject, but checking all the other language Wikipedia pages on the subject shows that most them call it a genocide. Languages that seem to not describe it as a genocide such as Hebrew, Korean and German are clearly in the minority here.
Also many sources on this very article descibe it as such. As you said there is clearly something suspicious going on in here. Chelk (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not it is a conventional genocide is a debate that is ongoing, but that is a separate matter from the article title. We document the genocide terminology in the body, and the subject is the persecution of Uyghurs in any case, culminating in what some have described as a genocide. The article is more than just the terminology. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:02, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The closer of that discussion summarises the title issue well: "if there is no common name for the event and no generally accepted descriptive word, use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications". It was demonstrated with evidence that although some independent reliable sources use the term genocide, many others describe the matter … without ever using that word. As such, the use of genocide here isn't yet generally accepted, and the alternative of persecution, which I think all agree has fewer POV implications, is what the guideline instructs us to do. That Uyghurs have been/are being persecuted is fairly universally agreed, whether that persecution is properly characterised as a 'genocide' is not. Nothing in the article itself diminishes what is/has been happening to the Uyghurs but it isn't part of our task to adopt condemnatory language before most of the world has done so.Pincrete (talk) 05:04, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the issue here is that the persecution of Uyghurs does meet some definitions of genocide (notably the Raphael Lemkin definition) but many international bodies do not prefer those definitions as they are quite broad and would likely lead to the actions of many other major states (like Canada) being described as genocide too. This has led to an unclear situation in the literature. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the