Talk:Northern Ireland/Archive 12

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Guff about economic growth since 90s

To read some of the stuff, you'd swear the "Peace Process" or "Peace Dividend" no less was responsible for most economic growth since the 90s. Get a grip! No one would say that was why the economy of Ireland boomed during that period. NI is on the same island...Much the same reasons helped its economy grow too...Boring economic reasons. The closing down of police stations, army barracks etc. and reduction in police overtime and army spending in the Region were not drivers of growth though tourism probably helped make up for much of that. Frenchmalawi (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Well I can agree with you to some extent but not overall. I fully expected Northern Ireland to become a bit poorer with the end of the troubles even if there would be more industry eventually because the UK would stop pouring billions into it whatever about the promises of keeping it going for a while. But surely it is better to have people working an doing things for themselves rather than depending on handouts from Britain? All that money was coming in at the cost of peoples' lives. As for ROI it has definitely gained from the peace, even though it didn't have to deal with all that terrorism it was spending proportionally more than the UK because of it as far as I can see with its extra troops and security measures and suchlike money sinks. So you can't really talk about it being growth in the region independent of the peace dividend. Dmcq (talk) 09:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the guff in the article completely obscures the real position. Ireland proper experienced huge economic growth during that period. I doubt 2 per cent of that growth was due to peace coming to the jurisdiction bordering it. As for NI, the percentage might be a tad higher or might not given barracks closures etc. The growth in the services sector, FDI, demographics, global economic growth and things like that explain by far the vast majority of the growth but to read the guff, you'd think it was down to the peace process. It's a problem for NI that it is so often seen through the narrow prism of its political divide. In this case, it's really silly. I'm not going to edit that stuff out because it would probably be reverted but any one who does care more about the article should give it a go. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Well you might feel that it would only make a 2% difference if the businesses were still being bombed and businessmen being kidnapped or having to pay protection money and Americans being afraid to visit the place but I certainly think it all put a bit more of a dampener on business. Even with billions being spent on the place every year things like that silly DeLorean venture were as much as could be hoped for. You can only talk about the peace dividend being small if you include all that security spending and extra other spending by the UK during the troubles as an asset NI gained from people killing each other. Yes Britain is even now reducing the amount it pays, personally I'm happy about that given how the alternative was achieved. Dmcq (talk) 09:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Any way, the guff is all unsourced; what's needed is statistical analysis of the source of economic growth in the period...not guff about peace diVidend and what we "think". Frenchmalawi (talk) 02:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Well then the thing to do is stick {{cn}} beside the bits you dispute and see if anyone comes up with something, or better yet look around for stuff on the subject. Please try and write it up neutrally with due weight rather than just trying to find stuff that backs up what you think. Dmcq (talk) 09:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll put in a couple of those. Frenchmalawi (talk) 22:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I just did it but please could you fix the template for me as I don't know that it looks right and I am not sure how to do it. Thanks, Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. The t| in what I wrote was to produce a display of what should be written as I didn't want to actually say a citation was needed in my text. It wasn't my raw input that was to be copied. Dmcq (talk) 00:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; if no one bothers to add sources, we can delete the guff in a while. Frenchmalawi (talk) 12:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, well didn't know there was an edit war on "terrorist attacks from both sides of the Northern Irish ranks (ie Protestants and Catholics or any other way you'd like to describe them) causing economic troubles as sane people flee taking their companies with them" was something anyone with a brain couldn't figure out as common sense. So, I added a citation. The only book I have handy on the subject. Anyway, forgive my Irish wit here. Now to my question. This same book goes on to talk about the boom in the 1990s when Ireland (as a whole) was being called the Celtic Tiger. He speaks of double digit growth of the economy and a dropping of the unemployment rate. This is in general respect to all of Ireland, as near as I can tell. It does not attribute any of this to the Peace Accord. Although it should be a bit of common sense that "peace" pays a dividend in economy. That the removal of barricaded and heavily armed checkpoints encourage, rather than discourage tourism and so on. But he doesn't come out and attribute any of that to the Peace Accord. So, I'm guessing this book would not be a suitable source as a citation for the rest of the, what are we calling it, "guff"? The citation I did add was specifically for the fall in the economy, which he directly addressed. Celtic hackr (talk) 00:31, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Here is a few references I got from a quick look on the web

Can the peace dividend and devolution transform business in Northern Ireland?. This gives a few papers which have been written on the subject and says

"In the case of Northern Ireland, there are myriad reports and academic papers examining this question (Gudgin et al, 1998; Muckley, 2011 ; Portland Trust, 2007; Besley and Mueller, 2012) among many others. In the case of Muckley, and Besley and Mueller, they investigate the impact of a peace dividend on tourism and investment; and house prices, respectively, for which they find positive effects. In the late 1990s, the level of public sector employment rose to 39% and public subsidies rising to a third of GDP in 1995 (Goreki, 1995). In essence, the economy was sustained by the state as a result of conflict. "

"It is apparent that there are production, income and consumption effects from a peace dividend, but they are variable and the time lags to return to pre-conflict trend can be considerable. "

basically what I was saying about that Britain poured in billions because people killed each other and are now slashing the budgets whatever about their promises of money if there was peace. But overall it is good for the economy. And the study of house prices shows a clear negative correlation between people being killed and house prices.

The housing one is at [1] but the others would need some academic access.

[2] has a quote from Canning Moores and Rhodes in 1987 saying

"while the troubles have led to a loss of manufacturing jobs, the net effect on the regional economy has been positive, due to the induced expansion of public sector expenditure and employment". It also has another bit where it is estimated that peace means an additional 1400 jobs per year extra. Basically it takes time, you don't the benefits overnight, whereas There is a strong incentive in Britain to reduce the subsidies as quickly as possible.

Anyway see what you think or you might spot something better. That last quote has been the closest I've seen to anything supporting your idea that there isn't a peace dividend, overall it seems the statistics since then seem to show a definite benefit. Dmcq (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

"the closest I've seen to anything supporting your idea that there isn't a peace dividend"...I'm not sure if there was or was not a peace dividend. What I am sure of is that if there was one, it was not the key driver of growth. The NI economy grew hugely during the late 60s, most years in the 70s and 80s. It also grew in the early 90s. In short, it grew throughout "the Troubles". The "peace dividend" if there was one, was not the key to growth since then...There were many keys; mostly the same keys as applied throughout "the troubles". Remember what I said about the tendency to see things through some prism of "the troubles". It causes distortion. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:35, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

You mean "while the troubles have led to a loss of manufacturing jobs, the net effect on the regional economy has been positive, due to the induced expansion of public sector expenditure and employment"? Dmcq (talk) 13:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I mean that the "troubles" had a marginal, very marginal, role in the NI economy. I meanthe references to a "peace dividend" having driven growth since the 90s is a huge distortion of reality. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

How about following what you said about not guff about peace diVidend and what we "think" and talking about what the citations say. If you are going to dispute that NI was kept together by huge amounts of money from Britain during the troubles and was losing jobs then where is your source? In other words citation needed. Dmcq (talk) 17:55, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I never wanted to redraft the stuff about NI's economy. I made my comments and hope coverage may be improved by other editors. I'm not sure if you agreed with me in the end or not. What I was saying was very simple. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:39, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm don't see how you come to the idea that I might be agreeing with you. Perhaps you better say what your very simple point is again. If you didn't want to change the article what was the point? To ask for citations? Dmcq (talk) 01:34, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I did not want to change the article myself personally. I wanted to flag it as a problem and encourage other editors who have some knowledge in the topic to contribute to enhance it. That is one of the things about me. I accept I don't know a lot about everything. While I detected guff, I don't claim to be an expert on NI economics and amn't interested enough either. I think that's probably a difference between you and me. Judging from the stuff you've contributed here about ".ie", it seems you don't accept any limitations on your knowledge. You seem to think you know as much as anybody and cannot learn anything from another editor. You actually told me that the UK could sue Ireland over use of ".ie". What's more, I think you might actually believe that and are happy to believe, sources or not, familiarity with the law or not, general legal knowledge or not. Given this, you're probably interested in hearing anything further. You beat me hands down. I don't want to discuss things with you going forward. If its just you and me in a discussion, you'll beat me every time. Park reason and logic, sources and thought, at the door. Wear people down....You've beaten me. Congratulations !!! Frenchmalawi (talk) 02:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

So no answer to the question just a personal attack. If you think it is guff find your own sources to counter what the sources I gave said. This discussion isn't about .ie and I've said in that discussion that I'm okay with the entry about internet domains being removed from the infobox. I was answering a follow on question there on how I view its status. There's no need for you to go on about being worn down and being beaten when the article is being changed to what you want. Dmcq (talk) 23:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry if my tone was a bit harsh and caused any offence. You seem like a nice guy like I've said before. All the best. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Northern Ireland in Ireland

It's inaccurate to describe Northern Ireland as in Ireland because Northern Ireland includes other islands such as Rathlin Island. Rathlin Island isn't in Ireland. You could change it to something like:

“ Northern Ireland (Irish: Tuaisceart Éireann [ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ] ^ⓘ; Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann or Norlin Airlan) is a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland covering about one-sixth of the island of Ireland. ”

Thoughts?
Rob (talk | contribs) 17:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a limitation of English. It's about as close as you can get given the limitations of the language without losing information ("north-east"). It doesn't appear to prevent others from saying the same thing. --Tóraí (talk) 18:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a strange argument Rob is making. Rathlin Island is historically a part of Ireland. The argument being made is like saying The Republic of Irelend is not "in the north-west and south of the island of Ireland" because there are islands off the coast. I'll add this, that saying Northern Ireland is "in Ireland", it is sure to be a battle cry for debate by Unionists in Northern Ireland, and thus has deep political intonations and should be avoided. But that is not what is being said. The solution below is also inaccurate, as it still fails the point made above (i.e. that there are islands off the coast of both political entities). Indeed even Rob's own suggested fix fails of his own criteria. I see nothing wrong with the wording as it is. It clearly marks Northern Ireland as part of Great Britain, while factually indicating its overwhelming presence being in the north-east corner of the "island of Ireland". We are talking about 7 square miles of islands in total compared to almost 5400 square miles. Even this other wiki page, List of islands of Ireland, indicates the little islands all around Ireland as part of "Ireland". Ireland is an island which has always included the little offshore islands. Rathlin Island is part of County Antrim. Rathlin Island's history as part of Ireland pre-dates the Viking invasions, to state it is not part of "Ireland" is really reaching, in my opinion. Now, I'm as pedantic as the next geek, but this is pedantic even to me. Well at least on a good day, no promises on a bad day. ;) However, he has a valid point considering the article for the Republic of Ireland states "occupying about five-sixths of the island of Ireland". Hence an equal treatment is implied for this page, and I suggest the following change:

from "in the north-east of the island of Ireland" to "occupying about one-sixth of the island of Ireland". Celtic hackr (talk) 18:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Rathlin Island may be "part of Ireland", but it's definitely not "in the island of Ireland". "island of" preceding "Ireland" implies we are referring to the geographic island, not a cultural entity. I have objected to the title of List of islands of Ireland at it's talk page here. "occupying" has negative connotations in my opinion. The Germans occupied France. Israel occupies the Golan Heights. Northern Ireland is not an occupation. Not sure that term is appropriate to describe the extent of a polity. I'm not clear on what the problem with my proposed wording is? Rob984 (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

What about: "Northern Ireland is one of four constituent countries which collectively makes one sovereign state, the UK.. . It is located on the north/east of the island of Ireland and is about one-sixth of the islands' total land mass." Cbowsie (talk) 17:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Overly technical but 100% factual. Rob984 does raise a good point. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:54, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2014

Hello,

I was wondering if it would be more helpful to use an up-to-date value for Northern Irish GDP, while also displaying the value in USD. This would allow international comparison of N.I.'s GDP, bringing it into line with the United Kingdom, Scottish and Welsh Wikipedia page.

The article currently is as follows:

GDP (nominal) 2002 estimate

- 	Total	€37.33 billion
- 	Per capita	€19,603[4]

Currency Pound sterling (GBP)

I would therefore suggest the following:

GDP (PPP) 2011 estimate

- 	Total	$45.22 billion [4][5] 
- 	Per capita	$25197[4][5] 

GDP (nominal) 2011 estimate

- 	Total	$48.36 billion [4][5]
- 	Per capita	$26859[4][5] 

Currency Pound sterling (GBP)

The references used for this change are the Eurostat News Release "Regional GDP - GDP per capita in the EU in 2011, found at, and the OEDC statextracts table 4. "PPPs and exchange rates", found at.

Using the national currency of the Euro per USD (in 2011 $1 is worth €0.781835), the conversion of the Eurostat data is possible.

I hope this request has been well enough laid out as this is my first article change request.

Many thanks,

Gbrown782 (talk) 00:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 06:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the GDP given in the infobox should be changed to USD and updated. All the other UK articles give it in dollars, as does the Republic of Ireland article and all the other European countries I looked at (France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Finland, Sweden). Sarahj2107 (talk) 08:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Agree USD seems to be standard for GDP so the change seems reasonable. Dmcq (talk) 10:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can see the 2002 figures from Eurostat are being used not the 2011 ones at http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STAT-14-29_en.htm. I'll have a better check and see what should really be there and what are the latest available figures. Dmcq (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Just the citation pointed to the wrong place, will fix. Seems to be the latest figures. Dmcq (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Power-sharing: First Minister and deputy First Minister in Infobox

My reversion to the established position was itself reverted, as “unexplained”. This should not need explanation. However, since it has been challenged and clearly, no attempt was made to understand why that edit was reverted, here goes. Northern Ireland has a different system of government to Scotland or Wales. In this case, Northern Ireland operates a system of power-sharing, and the First Minister and deputy First Minister have equal powers. Consequently, the office and incumbents of First Minister and deputy First Minister should be shown in the Infobox. I did not provide an explanatory edit summary as I did not want to embarrass User:GoodDay by highlighting his ignorance of matters this side of the pond. The reason given for his edit (“Matching with infoboxes at Wales & Scotland, neither of wich show their deputy ministers [sic].”) is sufficiently eloquent. Some basic understanding of a subject would be useful before editing articles (or indeed, reverting) from an established consensus. As this page has 1RR editing restrictions, perhaps User:Rob984 would be so good as to self-revert. Daicaregos (talk) 13:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Recognising the edit as made in good faith would have been decent enough. No summary is how we respond to vandalism. I think the structure of the Northern Irish Executive falls a little outside of "basic understanding", and is not a reason to discourage editors. There's more to Northern Ireland then politics I hope. Rob984 (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

If they have equal powers, then they would be Co-First Ministers. Anyways, I won't challenge your revert. GoodDay (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Well it most certainly isn't the same relation as for other deputies! Dmcq (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

GoodDay, please if making contributions to a topic, have a bit of fact about you. They do have equal powers.--Filastin (talk) 12:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2015

I request that under the Northern Ireland page the Union Flag (Flag of the United Kingdom) be added at the top right-hand fact box. If you visit England, Scotland or the Wales page you will notice each has the flag of each region shown. Therefore Northern Ireland should also have their official flag (The Union Flag) displayed.

51wins (talk) 16:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Northern Ireland doesn't have its own flag. Those other flags are of the particular area. This has been debated before but its probably long enough since the last time for it to be debated again I think. Dmcq (talk) 17:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2015

Delete "<tr class="mergedbottomrow">" gibberish from very top of page.

86.152.163.55 (talk) 14:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for bringing this up. Daicaregos (talk) 16:46, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity misuse

In this section, it shows "Ethnic groups" when it should say "Racial groups." An Ethnicity is "pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like." (dicionary.reference.com) A racial is "denoting or relating to the division of the human species into races on grouds of physical characteristics." (dicionary.reference.com) For additional proof, I have provided several links that exemplify correct usage of race and ethnicity.

"Ethnic groups (2011) 98.28% White 1.06% Asian 0.20% Black 0.46% Other[1]"

https://www.census.gov/2010census/news/releases/operations/cb11-cn125.html https://www.census.gov/2010census/news/releases/operations/cb11-cn125.html

I believe that any further proof of the correct usage of race and ethnicity that may be in question could be found easily at several sites, some even in Wikipedia. I feel that this mistake, though common, could be offensive to some. I am extremely sorry if I am mistaken about my correction, but I am completely convinced that I am correct, until told otherwise. Thank you so much!

4885sj (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

We use the terminology "ethnic group" used in the census itself - as in this document - see page 15. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

NI: "largely self-governing"?

Since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, Northern Ireland is largely self-governing.

I don't think the above statement is true. NI can't even set tax rates! Practically all fiscal matters are set by Westminster. All monetary matters are set by Westminster. NI has no control over immigration, foreign affairs, EU matters, defence, passports... In reality, NI enjoys a modest measure of local government. It's not "largely" self-governing. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

What do you want to say instead? It has self government over everything that has caused real trouble and that is what people are interested in. And it is obvious Britain will give it like a shot whatever extra powers they ask for if they present a united front saying they want them so its not really as if Britain is denying it any powers. Dmcq (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I do not think it is accurate. The term is usually used to refer to overseas territories, not to constituent parts of a country. Is Texas largely self-governing? TFD (talk) 16:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe "largely self-administrating" would be better in the context? Murry1975 (talk) 16:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it is largely self-governing. France doesn't control its monetary policy or immigration either. Unified foreign policy and defence define a sovereign state. Not even the "self-governing" Crown dependencies control those. And Northern Ireland is responsible for a number of fiscal matters. Within the budget set by the UK government, Northern Ireland can spend on whatever it likes. That's around 50% of its public spending. Defence and pensions account for the majority of non-devolved spending. Also, Northern Ireland is gaining tax powers, and has had that option for years. Likely the reason it hasn't already is because it would begin to loose some of the £4 billion subsidy from English tax payers every year. Rob984 (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The article for Scotland says limited self-government, I think that's probably the closest to Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with "limited self-government". Britain is not a federation, for heaven's sake, and parliament retains supremacy. RGloucester — ☎ 14:32, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see how that conveys anything. Any area with a local government has limited self-governance. I think somehow explaining that it is largely self governing in regards to internal matters would be better? I'm not sure how to word that well. Rob984 (talk) 20:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not "largely" anything. Any measure of self-government that it has was granted by parliament, the sole and supreme authority. When NI exercises "self-government", it is exercising the will of parliament, not its own will. This is not a federation. RGloucester — ☎ 20:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The UK's unitary structure is irrelevant. The UK government has "supreme authority" over Bermuda, but the territory still has complete internal self-government. Authority and governance are not the same. Even if the Assembly is subordinate to the British Government, it is a separate body, and the British Government has devolved responsibilities to it. The constitutional structure of the UK would not have to change for Northern Ireland to have "complete internal self-government" like Bermuda. Rob984 (talk) 21:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There are two issues. One is whether NI has been provided any powers. Bermuda for example is a non-self-governing territory, so in a sense it would be incorrect to call it self-governing. But devolution is more similar to federalism, where two levels of government have different areas of responsibility. The article devolution provides the examples of U.S., Canada and Australia Internal territoires and districts have devolved governments. They have been provided by statute with powers held under their constitutions by powers exercised by states and provinces. But no one one describe states and provinces as self-governing. There is a division of responsibilities between two levels of government. TFD (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The powers of the assembly have only been devolved, not transferred. I think everybody is clear on that?

In the case of the US, the US Government never devolved or transferred powers to the 13 founding states, they transferred power to the US Government. Some might describe the process by which territories became states after that as "devolution", but the powers were really transferred, not devolved. Anyway, my point is that it's not comparable at all. The US states have a degree of self-governance. As does every area with a local government. Even if the US states have power in there own right, they may have a lesser degree of self-governance than Northern Ireland. It is important to distinguish power/authority from governance.

Bermuda is internally self-governing. The UN doesn't regard territories as "self-governing" until they control there foreign policy, but regardless, the UN's view on what is a "non self-governing territory" is contentious, and the UK Government regards Bermuda as internally self-governing, and Gibraltar as largely internally self-governing. Rob984 (talk) 21:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The UK added Bermuda to the list of non-self-governing states. It is not self-governing in the sense that the UK may legislate for it and law enforcement and courts are still directly controlled by the UK. Regarding Canada, the US and Australia, the correct comparison is the territories which come under direct federal jurisdiction, but the central government has "devolved" powers to them comparable to the powers of states or provinces. But no one calls them "self-governing." The term is generally only used for external territories. Since NI unlike Bermuda is part of the UK, the term "self-governing" seems unusual. TFD (talk) 01:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to simply rein the discussion back to Northern Ireland. I don't think any one here think's it is "largely self governing". Is there consensus to align its description with Scotland - "limited self-government"? Frenchmalawi (talk) 13:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

What about "has devolved powers?" TFD (talk) 15:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I like "has a devolved government with power to legislate in essential areas", or something like that. RGloucester — ☎ 16:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"essential areas", as oppose to? The majority of internal matters are the responsibility of the Assembly, so something like "...Northern Ireland is largely responsible for its own internal affairs" is more specific and factual. Rob984 (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I prefer "executive" and "assembly." "Government" is ambiguous. Does anyone know if judges (not JPs) are appointed by NI or the UK?

The assembly has no responsibilities that are not given to it by the British parliament. It is merely a servant of the British government, no different from a county council in England. I'm fine with "has a devolved executive and assembly with powers to legislate in certain essential areas". RGloucester — ☎ 18:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

While you are correct, that puts them in the same class as British Overseas Territories. But they do not even have that degree of independence, since NI remains part of the UK. They do not for example control their borders or issue their own currency. TFD (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm wary of the following things. For one, Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom, as you say. This must be made clear. Secondly, the NI devolved authorities has many competencies, but these are not inherent to NI. They delegated these responsibilities by the British parliament. I believe that I like the Wales article's solution best, if we're going down this line: "Established under the Government of Wales Act 1998, the National Assembly for Wales holds responsibility for a range of devolved policy matters". Likewise, "Established by the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, the Northern Ireland Assembly holds responsibility for a range of devolved policy matters". Something along those lines. The present wording is absolutely horrid. NI is not "largely self-governing" in any respect, and the following sentence is even worse "according to the agreement, Northern Ireland co-operates with the Republic of Ireland on some policy areas, while other areas are reserved for the British Government, though the Republic of Ireland "may put forward views and proposals" with "determined efforts to resolve disagreements between [the two governments]". This seems to imply that the Republic is on the same level as the British government, when this is obviously not the case. That's not even a comparison that should be made. It should read something like "Established by the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, the Northern Ireland Assembly holds responsibility for a range of devolved policy matters, while other areas are reserved for the British government". RGloucester — ☎ 19:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That sounds good. BTW do you know if there is any legal opinion that the UK Parliament may have actually irrevocably ceded power? There was some writing on that subject after Australia, Canada and NZ's constitutions were changed in the 1980s. TFD (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I've implemented the above wording. Feel free to tweak it. Insofar as parliament ceding power, I do not know of anyone significant that holds that viewpoint. I suppose one could say that it would be quite hard to revoke devolution, but the British government has done so before with regard to Northern Ireland, and presumably could do so again in future. RGloucester — ☎ 20:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That is an improvement. The Northern Ireland Act 1988 says it "does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Northern Ireland." (section 5(6)) By comparison, the Barbados Independence Act 1966 says, "No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed on or after the appointed day shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to Barbados...." (Section 1(2)) That puts NI in the same category as a municipality. TFD (talk) 07:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Ireland Act "guarantee"

The Ireland Act 1949 gave the first legal guarantee that the region would not cease to be part of the United Kingdom without the consent of the Parliament of Northern Ireland.

I don't think the above is accurate/appropriate. What does it mean? A guarantee? No. The IA 1949 was an act of parliament; the parliament is sovereign; it can change that Act just as it could any other. Indeed, if that was a "guarantee", the "guarantee" has already been broken as the Parliament of Northern Ireland was abolished by an act of Parliament. Also, since when would the UK be giving guarantees to parts of its own territory. Has it ever guaranteed Devon that Devon will remain in the UK? I've heard the above sort of statement before but don't think its correct or proper. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:18, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Confusing phrasing in lede

From the article's current lede (bolding added by me):

Unlike Southern Ireland, which would become the Irish Free State in 1922, the majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists or loyalists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom. Most of these were the Protestant descendants of colonists from Great Britain; however, a significant minority, mostly Catholics, were nationalists or republicans who wanted a united Ireland independent of British rule.

I find this confusing. The end of the first sentence is about the majority of the population being unionist. The second sentence begins "Most of these", which I take to mean "most of the unionists". But the second sentence goes on to refer to "a significant minority", which I would take to mean "a significant minority of the unionists", but it actually seems to mean "a significant minority of the population", referring back to the first sentence, not the first part of the second sentence. A suggested rephrasing (minus the citations) that may clarify my point:

Unlike Southern Ireland, which would become the Irish Free State in 1922, the majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists or loyalists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom. Most of these were the Protestant descendants of colonists from Great Britain. However, a significant minority of Northern Island's population, mostly Catholics, were nationalists or republicans who wanted a united Ireland independent of British rule.

152.121.18.252 (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

References

Citation for Peter Robinson being First Minister and for the Deputy Minister being Martin McGuiness.

That part of the article needs a citation. Here is one,http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/index/your-executive/ministers-and-their-departments.htm. I suggest it be added. PaulBustion88 (talk) 00:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Ireland"

The naming of the article at Ireland and the usage and topic of the pagename "Ireland" are up for discussion, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration#Move "Ireland" to "Ireland (island)" or similar (June 2015) -- 70.51.203.69 (talk) 05:09, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2015

Vandalized page

27Canislupus (talk) 14:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: I don't think adding the term "unitary" is in bad faith. If you want an edit further back undone, you need to be more specific with the request. —C.Fred (talk) 14:24, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

List of books about the Troubles

The article List of books about the Troubles has been nominated for deletion. You may wish to participate in the discussion. IQ125 (talk) 11:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Poor demographics table

The table at "Citizenship and identity" does not add up, or is poorly designed. 79.101.241.105 (talk) 10:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

What's the issue? It doesn't have to add up, people can identify in multiple groups. Canterbury Tail talk 11:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

NI and the Irish Free State in 1922

Did Northern Ireland have to opt out of the Irish Free State or did it have to opt to remain in the United Kingdom when the Irish Free State was created on 6 December 1922? There appears to be some dispute. Also if all Ireland had left the United Kingdom would that not have meant that the United Kingdom would have ceased to exist as there would no longer have been a union between Great Britain and Ireland? AlwynJPie (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

NI-related AFD (2nd nomination) pending

Hard to believe only two editors (including nominator) had anything to say, during 1st nomination, which resulted in non admin closure due to lack of consensus, which is an intolerable and inexplicable outcome. See here. Quis separabit? 15:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica displays Unionist flag for Northern Ireland article.

The flag in detail. The article.

Is this a reliable source to display on the Wiki page as the flag? EB isn't known to mess up on things like this.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 03:33, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It just lists it as an image, it does not identify it as the flag ----Snowded ^TALK 04:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It's the Ulster Banner. It has no official status and therefore we should not use it. TFD (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Unionist POV

Snowded, why do you use derogatory language for nationalist descriptions of the polity that you leave absent from unionist descriptions? Gob Lofa (talk) 18:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not aware that I used any derogatory language - sorry you will have to elaborate ----Snowded ^TALK 18:51, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Why is it Irish nationalist terminology alone that has an implication? Gob Lofa (talk) 01:12, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you will have to make a clear statement about the changes you made and why you think they are justified then I am happy to respond, Neither of the questions you have asked (or maybe it is one question in different form) make sense and in one case fail WP:AGF ----Snowded ^TALK 03:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Why do you say nationalist terminology has an implication? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

For the last time: "you will have to make a clear statement about the changes you made and why you think they are justified then I am happy to respond". Vague insinuations and statements that seem unconnected to any change to the article are not only unhelpful they are disruptive. If you can't be bothered to respond otherwise expect further comments to be ignored. ----Snowded ^TALK 13:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

It's a simple question that's directly related to your recent edit, I don't see anything unclear or vague about it. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

See previous comment ----Snowded ^TALK 14:30, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. It's difficult to avoid the impression you're now being obtuse; exactly what part of my question is unclear? Gob Lofa (talk) 14:43, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

You made a contested edit. If you want to restore it then you have to make a case here and I will respond. Instead of doing you are asking generic questions which in effect make statements I don't recognise. So it is very simple; make a case for your proposed changes or shut up. If you think I am being evasive then take it to ANI ----Snowded ^TALK 15:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Try to stay civil old bean, and allow me to retort. Your version says "North of Ireland (Tuaisceart na hÉireann) or North-East Ireland (Oirthuaisceart Éireann) - to emphasise the link of Northern Ireland to the rest of the island, and so by implication playing down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain." I'm now contesting your edit; how do you justify that "implication"? Gob Lofa (talk) 20:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Snowded - you need to be much clearer about what you are saying. Are you saying what is there is actually wrong or are you asking for a citation or are you trying to say something else? Dmcq (talk) 23:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

It's wrong, yes; how does it play "down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain"? It's also introducing an unhelpful theme of ascribing intent that is noticeably absent from the previous section, on unionist terminology. Gob Lofa (talk) 00:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

The section is on language used within Nationalist communities so it is right to use language in conformance with that community. I suppose we should be grateful that you finally outlined your actual question, more or less a first so well done. ----Snowded ^TALK 04:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by "language in conformance with that community"? Gob Lofa (talk) 09:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Language in conformity with that communities use; does that make it any easier for you to understand? ----Snowded ^TALK 09:49, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Can we get back to basics? If the statement that it "emphasise[s] the link of Northern Ireland to the rest of the island, and so by implication play[s] down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain" can be supported by reliable sources, it should stay in, with a citation. Otherwise, even if appears to some to be an obvious and helpful clarification, it is essentially original research, and so should not be stated. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any sources for Gob Lofa's disputed change. The nationalist community emphasise language which plays down the GB links and emphasises those to Ireland (the state). So this section will reflect that. Similarly the Unionist section will reverse that. We are talking here about sections on the use of language by different communities, not the main body of the article. I'm sure we can find references to support all types of language use :-) ----Snowded ^TALK 10:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Works for me, Ghmyrtle. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm more than open to changing the explanatory statement by the way, but there needs to be an explanation. The use of sectarian language in the republican community is designed to reject the existence of Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom (the most basic of searches on google scholar provides multiple references to support that). So we have to help other editors understand the use of various terms. Six Counties, because there are nine in Ulster, North or North-East makes a clear geographical point. Personally I think the current wording is fine and not original research. A change to say it involves a rejection of the existing of Northern Ireland as a separate body could get direct citation but would not be as helpful. None of the language there is derogatory by the way (to return the the opening phrase of his exchange) ----Snowded ^TALK 12:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

That's not wholly inaccurate, but the converse is that "use of sectarian language in the" loyalist "community is designed to" emphasise "the existence of Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom", and I don't see you helping "other editors understand" this in the section on unionist terminology. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm dealing with a change you made (well three in this case we are only talking about one of them). I'm open to changes in other sections ----Snowded ^TALK 12:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I reckon my way's easier but if you believe you can do it, get to work and I'll have a look after you're done. If you don't, the current loaded version can't stand. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Its not loaded Gog Lofa, there is an explanation which can change. If you want to make other balancing changes fine ----Snowded ^TALK 12:54, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I've no intention of balancing bias with more of the same, and happily it looks like you're coming round to see that for the dead-end it is too. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Bias? honestly, an explanation is not bias. The use of 'North-East' is not obvious to a reader without local knowledge to say it relates to either a focus on Ireland or a rejection of Northern Ireland is not to comment on the validity or otherwise of such use. The current form is more explanatory. I'm less sure an explanation is needed in the other section as it is pretty self-evident from the text but if someone felt strongly I would be open.----Snowded ^TALK 13:10, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm totally confused here. The section is about a bias. Is the objection that the language describing the bias is biased? Or that we shouldn't describe the bias? Or what exactly? Dmcq (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was just me... Catfish Jim and the slapdash 17:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I've got no idea why the word bias has been introduced. All we have is a sensible description which helps readers which for some reason Gob Lofa has taken objection to ----Snowded ^TALK 20:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Here's my answer to your original question again: It's wrong, yes; how does it play "down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain"? It's also introducing an unhelpful theme of ascribing intent that is noticeably absent from the previous section, on unionist terminology. Gob Lofa (talk) 01:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

If you think that it is unlikely to be true or cannot be cited then put a {{cn}} citation needed tag on it challenging its WP:Verifiability. As to arguing that there is a POV because one section explains something and another doesn't, that is irrelevant as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Please see WP:NPOV. Neutral point of view is not about balancing things like some American chat show, it is about reporting straightforwardly what is the sources. Citation needed is what one puts in to say that something does not reflect the sources. Helpful is also an irrelevant notion in Wikipedia, see WP:NOTCENSORED. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, it here to disseminate knowledge, not to patch up the ills of the world. Dmcq (talk) 10:23, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. See my "I've no intention of balancing bias with more of the same" comment above. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Then what was the relevance to what you are saying of pointing to what unionists call Northern Ireland? I read your comment as saying you wanted to remove what you saw as bias in the description of what nationalists say so that neither would have this bias you perceive. Dmcq (talk) 11:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I want. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Then WP:NOTCENSORED is applicable. Dmcq (talk) 12:36, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Anyways, it's not just loaded, it's also wrong; how does "North of Ireland (Tuaisceart na hÉireann) or North-East Ireland (Oirthuaisceart Éireann)...emphasise the link of Northern Ireland to the rest of the island" and "by implication" play "down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain."? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:43, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Those may not be the best words, but "North-East", "Six Counties" etc. need some explanation if readers not familiar with The Troubles are to understand their significance. A refusal to acceptance to existence of Northern Ireland as a legislature might be an alternative wording. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:56, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I haven't the foggiest where the idea that it is wrong comes from. Republicans have stated quite clearly for instance that they refer to Northern Ireland as the six counties and the Republic as the 26 counties because they don't recognize the states and that they consider the areas to be part of a 32 county Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 13:16, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

That wasn't my question. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let's break down the sentence that Gob Lofa has a problem with:

• North of Ireland (Tuaisceart na hÉireann) or North-East Ireland (Oirthuaisceart Éireann) - to emphasise the link of Northern Ireland to the rest of the island, and so by implication playing down Northern Ireland's links with Great Britain.[82]

There are a number of claims here:

1. Northern Ireland is sometimes called North of Ireland
2. Northern Ireland is sometimes called Tuaisceart na hÉireann which is Irish for North of Ireland
3. Northern Ireland is sometimes called North-East Ireland
4. Northern Ireland is sometimes called Oirthuaisceart Éireann which is Irish for North-East Ireland
5. These four terms emphasise Northern Ireland's geographical status as a part of the island of Ireland.
6. These four terms de-emphasise Northern Ireland's status as a constituent unit of the United Kingdom.

Are these six claims correct? My feeling is that if 1, 2, 3 and 4 are accurate, then it probably is because of 5 and 6. However, we should only voice this in the article if we can reference it, otherwise we fall foul of WP:OR.

Is the current reference sufficient to cover the six claims? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

1-4 are definitely correct; 5 and 6 are dubious. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll expand; 5 is definitely out. Whether it's 'Northern', 'North of', or 'Northeastern', all of these terms reference Ireland and Northern Ireland's geographical position within it. None emphasise it. 6 has slightly more going for it but is still wrong. It'd be more accurate to say that they're used in defiance of a perceived British right to decide what a part of Ireland ought to be called. 'Northeastern' is also for the more geographically-inclined. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I think we're getting somewhere. Catfish Jim and the slapdash 14:38, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

The point is that they emphasise the geographical position within Ireland, to emphasis a view that Ireland as an island should be entire as a state. So I can't see how 5&6 are in any way dubious, but they could without a doubt be better phrased. ----Snowded ^TALK 15:24, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

How, exactly? Unless you believe that the term 'Northern Ireland' does the same, I don't see how you can argue that. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is the British (UK) name for the country/province comprising the six counties of Ulster that are not part of Ireland (the state). It is now accepted as a name by the Irish Government as well, but was controversial. So over the years multiple ways have evolved of avoiding the controversial name. I'm surprised I have to explain that ----Snowded ^TALK 15:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you believe you've explained, but you certainly haven't answered my question. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Well given I am not the only one who is having a problem understanding just what question you are asking maybe you should try again? I'd recommend formulating a question related to content as well, not a request to confirm or deny some view that you have ascribed to other editors. It might help ----Snowded ^TALK 15:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Put into another context, do you believe there is no difference between saying the north of Korea and North Korea? And are you saying because you believe there is no difference other people think the same as you and see no difference? Dmcq (talk) 16:03, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Snowded, my question is at 15:31. Dmcq, I believe there's a difference. One refers to a state, one refers to the north of a peninsula. Now if I thought that Korean nationalists used 'North of Korea' to refer to the state, I'd give you a different answer. But if someone asserted that one of those terms emphasised Korea rather than 'North of' or 'North', I'd have to ask; how? And how would 'North of' play down North Korea's links with, say, China? Gob Lofa (talk) 16:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Your 15:31 questions was answered above. You may not accept the answer, but that is not the same thing as it not being answered. Interesting as you say (in respect of Korea) one refers to the state the other to geography. That is the point ----Snowded ^TALK 16:16, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

What time was it answered? My answer was qualified. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

1524, clarified 1534. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:20, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Not very well, I'm afraid. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Irish nationalists are referring to the northern part of an area of what they think should be the state. It coincides with the area known to others as Northern Ireland but they are not referring to the state as such. It is not a name of the state Northern Ireland in their minds - it is a reference to that part of Ireland which is currently occupied by a foreign power. They are denying the legitimacy of the state or any possibility of it being a part of the UK. As one Sinn Féin TD said "In the republican political tradition, to which I belong, the State is often referred to as the 26-County State. This is a conscious response to the partitionist view, prevalent for so long and still sadly widespread, that Ireland stops at the Border. The Constitution says that the name of the State is Ireland, and Éire in the Irish language. Quite against the intentions of the framers of the Constitution, this has led to an identification of Ireland with only 26 of our 32 counties in the minds of many people". Dmcq (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about "...denying...any possibility of it being a part of the UK" - most Irish nationalists mightn't like the situation but they don't pretend it doesn't exist. But the rest is a fair enough summary. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

So what is it you think is wrong with the wording in the article? Dmcq (talk) 08:26, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I think we're actually all broadly on the same page. Would changing the wording slightly help matters?

• North of Ireland (Tuaisceart na hÉireann) or North-East Ireland (Oirthuaisceart Éireann) - subsituting alternative geographical descriptions, disacknowledging Northern Ireland's political status as a constituent unit of the United Kingdom.

Something like that? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Remember the Scots translations.Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 13:58, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok with me ----Snowded ^TALK 20:52, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Fine by me Dmcq (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Me too. I'd like to lose the hyphen in northeast, though. Gob Lofa (talk) 03:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, I don't see the need for the Irish translations; while it literally means 'North of Ireland' and not 'Northern Ireland', 'Tuaisceart na hÉireann' is the offical Irish translation for the polity (on both sides of the border), even though the British term is always used in English. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Coming late to the party

Coming late to the party, but it would not be true to say that "Northeast Ireland" is used to any significant extent to refer to the state of Northern Ireland. I've heard Sinn Féiners say "the six northeastern counties of Ireland" all right, but never "Northeast Ireland" on its own. A Google search gives me nearly 6,000 results, but out of the top 40, only one – "six counties in Northeast Ireland" on the IRSP website – refers to NI. Googling "Oirthuaisceart Éireann" mostly directs me to a book by Nollaig Ó Gadhra: Guth an phobail: teip an daonlathais ar oirthuaisceart Éireann, which may or may not refer to NI (I'd never heard of it before) but certainly doesn't count as significant use.
As for "north of Ireland", my understanding is that it is not used to "emphasise" a geographical link, but merely to indicate a refusal to use the name "Northern Ireland", i.e. a refusal to recognise its existence as a separate entity.
Whenever somebody says "this needs to be supported by reliable sources", it needs to be supported by reliable sources. In this case Ghmyrtle said it, but nobody seems to have even tried to find the sources, instead relying on a Wayback archive of a dead larkspirit.com page that happened to be headed "History of the North of Ireland" (and doesn't say "northeast" anywhere). What's needed here is not to tweak the wording, but to do the research, see what has been published in reliable sources on names and their meaning, and summarise it in the article. Failing that, "north of Ireland" should be left on its own, without "northeast Ireland" and without unsourced commentary. A third alternative is to do away with all of those sub-sub-sections, which are without exception OR, the only "citation" being "see here for an example of its use". Scolaire (talk) 13:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I've changed the wording for the moment, but it needs RS. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 15:06, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Mostly covered at Alternative names for Northern Ireland anyways. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

And I've removed "North-East Ireland". I still have a problem with the wording, though. "North of Ireland" doesn't "substitute alternative geographical descriptions" any more than "the Six Counties" or "Ulster" do. And maybe it's just me, but I find "disacknowledging" a really ugly word. Scolaire (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not wild about it, 'thus not acknowledging' might be better. Maybe make the explanation once for all those names? ----Snowded ^TALK 16:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Well Ulster doesn't substitute a geographical description but the other two do even if North isn't exactly accurate. Ulster would include nine counties. Ulster and the Province are what are used by unionists to claim a historical separate identity from the rest of Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 18:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course "Ulster" is a geographical description. The provinces of Ireland is part of geography. Unionists use the geographical term "Ulster" the way nationalists use the geographical terms "six counties" and "north". Scolaire (talk) 23:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Well Ulster is political as well as geographical, but we can still cover the explanation that way ----Snowded ^TALK 07:54, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I've made some changes - Tuaisceart na hÉireann is the sole Irish language term for the polity used by the British government (not all of whose members are Irish nationalist), and na Sé Chontae is the most common term for the polity in Irish language broadcast media, not all of whose broadcasters are republicans. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:55, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

We should only stick in Irish language terms when they are quite commonly used in English language documents. Being commonly used in English language Sinn Féin documents for instance would be good enough for that I think. Dmcq (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Language map colours

@Thisisnotatest: I agree that the previous wording of light blue and green for the map colours is not the best, but I think the new caption is a bit long and awkward. Would you be open to a shorter alternative? The actual image description is:

A map showing the English and Scots dialects spoken in Ulster.

• Turquoise: Ulster Scots
• Light blue: Mid-Ulster English
• Purple: South-Ulster English
• Pink: Southern Hiberno-English

I wouldn't call Mid-Ulster English light blue though; maybe light purple. Sarah-Jane (talk) 11:51, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107: I've just now made it less wordy in response to your comment. I'm in agreement with you on the colours. On the other hand, making the description spatial makes the map accessible to those who with colour-blindness, so I'm a bit biased toward a colourless solution. If you are familiar with the subject matter, please be so kind as to see that I haven't destroyed the meaning in the process. Thisisnotatest (talk) 12:15, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I think it has made it meaningless in places. "In three areas, Ulster Scots is no longer spoken in those entire areas" makes no sense whatsoever to me. Scolaire (talk) 12:20, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

It's better now it has been shortened but I agree that the Ulster Scots part doesn't make sense. What about "and the three traditional Ulster Scots areas", which is similar to the wording in the caption of the same image on the Ulster Scots dialects page. I don't think it should say Ulster Scots is no longer spoken in these areas as this contradicts what is written in the Ulster Scots section. Sarah-Jane (talk) 13:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. Scolaire (talk) 14:19, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107 and Scolaire: Thank you for your review. I was afraid of that. Here's the not-my-wording prior to my edits:

Ulster Scots (green) is no longer spoken in that entire area.

What does that even mean? Ulster Scots once covered that area but has been eliminated from that area? Ulster Scots was used to cover that entire area but now it's spotty? Was that sentence incorrect before my edit? Thisisnotatest (talk) 07:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure but it might mean that it was once spoken by everyone in that area but now only a small number of people speak it. This is supported by the data on %speakers. The original wording was added with the image in 2012 by Tóraí, maybe they could take a look to make sure the original meaning isn't being lost if it's changed. Sarah-Jane (talk) 10:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all very woolly. That's why I didn't either revert or re-phrase. It says in the Ulster Scots dialects article that the map is based on a 1972 book, so it was already out of date when that article was created. As far as I can see, what the caption is trying to say is that the turquoise area is where Ulster Scots is to be found, but that the majority language there is English, and has been for centuries. "Spotty" is probably a good, if unencyclopaedic, way of saying it. That's why I favour Sarah-Jane's "three traditional Ulster Scots areas". It's suitably vague, but less confusing. Scolaire (talk) 11:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Sarah-Jane's proposal is good for me too. The starting point, unfortunately, was the map (which is from more than 40 years ago and I suspect imprecise even then) and the label work backwards (or forwards?) from there. --Tóraí (talk) 09:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

NOI

Murry, what POV are you referring to? Gob Lofa (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Your North of Ireland in Irish edit, it is already source in the lede. Murry1975 (talk) 21:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

That's not a POV. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Is there a working link? What do the European Union translators use? BushelCandle (talk) 21:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Links dead :( New link coming. Murry1975 (talk) 21:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

In an EU report if that is good/better. Murry1975 (talk) 21:20, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/c%C3%B3ras-oifi-gi%C3%BAil-na-sl%C3%A1nr%C3%B3da%C3%ADochta-do-thuaisceart-%C3%A9irann spells it "Thuaisceart Éirann" (with an h) so things seem complex. Presumably the Irish spelling changes according to grammar? BushelCandle (talk) 21:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

The h adding is explained here if that helps. Of or the being place before the article would be examples of what can add this. I hope I have help there. Murry1975 (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Indeed that does help, Murry1975 - thank you!

[Your helpful link explained that the additional aitch is there because of lenition - "a fancy way of talking about aspiration of consonants. The H is used in modern Irish spelling" whereas "in older Irish (called Ogham script), the same effect was noted by putting a dot over the letter." since otherwise, writing with all sorts of lines and dots and acute accents over the letters might get confusing to read. Consequently, modern written Irish uses the convention of using H to show aspiration.] BushelCandle (talk) 22:10, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be an impression that one of these Irish language terms means 'Northern Ireland' and another means 'North of Ireland'. That's not the case; both translate to 'North of Ireland'. The literal translation of Northern Ireland would be 'Éire Thuaidh'. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Well Lapsed Pacifist, you can talk to the DFA about that. Murry1975 (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Please strike this comment if it is unwittingly provocative or denigratory: I'm curious, Murry1975; why do you call Gob Lofa "Lapsed Pacifist"? Was this a former account name of Gob Lofa or is User:Lapsed Pacifist an omission from Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Gob Lofa ?

Is LP an omission from GL? Maybe it's the other way around... Mabuska ^(talk) 21:39, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

The DFA is the governmental organisation I linked as a reference. Murry1975 (talk) 22:57, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

And thats Ireland North literally. Murry1975 (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not. You're using 'North' as an adjective, when in the Irish you're purporting to translate, it's a noun. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Ireland, North sounds like a very good translation to me, the sort of thing one would put on one of the maps in an atlas like Europe, East as opposed to Eastern Europe which was part of the Soviet bloc. Anyway we're supposed to go by sources rather than by editors own thoughts and the cite above to nidirect.gov.uk sounds good to me it just is in the genitive case. There's variations like Tuaisceart na hÉireann which might have an even better claim as it is used by the NI Assembly in various laws. Dmcq (talk)

Why do you believe it's good to translate nouns as adjectives? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:05, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Eh? Wouldn't it be more that I was treating an adjective as a noun if anything in saying Éire Thuaidh sounds more like Ireland, North to me? Anyway that is irrelevant to the article. Dmcq (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

In Irish, the noun precedes the adjective. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Notice the little comma I stuck in. And as I said before Wikipedia goes by sources so this is irrelevant. Dmcq (talk) 13:04, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Status of NI

The status of Northern Ireland in the infobox reads 'constituent part' and 'jurisdiction'. Could 'constituent part' be changed to 'constituent country', and could 'province' be added? Based on this and this. Thanks. 86.162.161.144 (talk) 17:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I removed http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/ from the first link as it messed it up. Not certain what this was supposed to be about.

I'm a bit pro this this but I think I'll leave it to see if there is a bit more support as the terminology is disputed. Dmcq (talk) 00:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The terminology isn't overly disputed. Northern Ireland's status as a country has been established in UK law since it came into existence (i.e. by the Government of Ireland Act 1920), the qualifier of 'constituent country' is widely understood to differentiate it from sovereign states. The title 'province' is established officially by the ISO standard, and popularly recognised as an appropriate descriptor for Northern Ireland, arising from its conflation with the historical Irish province of Ulster. The only disputes I can imagine which anyone could put to this would be politically motivated in nature. 86.148.31.168 (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I've changed it to 'constituent country'. The descriptions section of the article has a ton of citations for the various descriptions so we can't make a definitive decision, constituent country seems a description that someone new to the topic might understand. If you stick in province as well you really have to put in everything. Dmcq (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

It was Constituent Country for a long time, didn't notice it getting changed to Part. Canterbury Tail talk 15:37, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

We did this to death years ago, initially in the context of Wales, but then it extended to all four countries of the UK. Links is here. The pipe link takes people to an elaborate description of what is to say the least a complex issue. I'd argue for consistency on the treatment of Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. ----Snowded ^TALK 17:41, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I just looked at what you pointed to and it was about how to phrase the start of the Wales article. I really don't see what it has to do with the contents of the infobox in the Northern Ireland article. Nor in fact do I see any requirement for consistency if even different parts of the goovernment call it different things and call the different pparts oof the uK differentt things. Where is the place where it was extended in a talk about United Kindom articles thanks? Dmcq (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

It says "It also provides 72 such references for England, Northern Ireland and Scotland." and in the table itself you would see that constituent country is hardly ever used in the sources for any of the four. Although the dispute on title started in Wales the mediation (and the prior edit warring) extended to all four country articles). I am not sure what has happened to that table (it is now a red link) but the administrator who mediated the whole process is still active so could be invited to comment. It ended a very long running series of edit wars and a devious cause of many a sock puppet creation. ----Snowded ^TALK 03:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

It was a discussion about the start of the article, not about the infobox. The start of the article has more words to describe more exactly whaqt it is talking about.. In the infobox just relying on a blue link is not informative for someone new coming along to the subject. Please address the issue rather than just pointing to a heavily contested consensus about a different matter affecting a different subject. Dmcq (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't heavily contested once it was mediated as the overwhelming evidence was for country rather than constituent country. In the case of Northern Ireland the evidence for Country was weaker, but even weaker for constituent country. Given that reference to the four countries of the UK is common this is not just a one article issue. it is neither a different matter, a different subject. ----Snowded ^TALK 11:43, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Dare I mention it again. Constituent country, should be used in the intro & infobox of this article, as well as the intros & infoboxes of England, Scotland & Wales. Why? Because it's the most accurate description for those 4 parts of the UK. The definition of Constituent country, is a -country, within a country-. GoodDay (talk) 12:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not too worried about the lead as there's more room to explain there, so I'm sure there's other ways to put the information over as well. The problem with the infobox is it is supposed to be a short summary, and saying country there without mentioning the UK there or beforehand can give the wrong idea to people. In most lists of countries of the world Northern Ireland is not mentioned, only the UK, so saying country is wrong in the open context where it is. It would be okay if the infobox had a title like 'Countries of the UK', but it doesn't. I'm sorry that Snowded just wants to quote some consensus without showing where this consensus was achieved or the evidence for it or explaining why what was pointed at is relevant and in that situation. Without a bit more evidence of a consensus on the infobox or even any need for one or for consistency or anybody else asking for it I think we should just wait to see if more evidence is produced and if not just change it to constituent country. The alternative I can see is to put a list of common descriptions there. Dmcq (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

GoodDay you argued this before the the citation evidence did not support you. Continued attempts to insert your preference was one the factors in your enforced absence. Once something is resolved on the basis of evidence then changing it without evidence is just to open a can of worms long closed. Dmcc If you check out you will find the EU designates as country (and that came after the original work on all available citations). I've linked to the page and offered to pull in the admin who managed the process if you really think this is important enough so please don't say that I haven't created the link. Further the points you raise above were raised by other editors in the previous mediated process. The solution of that created long term stability on several articles. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:01, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I haven't been attempting to edit constituent country into this article or the other 3 articles, for quite a long time. This topic always has & always will come down to editors choice. If enough editors show up & support using constituent country, then it will be implemented. Otherwise, it won't be. GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Evidence of majority use in citations GoodDay, please ----Snowded ^TALK 16:49, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

It comes down to editors choice, in this matter. AFAIK, a majority still prefer to use country, for the 4 articles-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 16:52, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

It is not a matter of preference it is a matter of sourcing. Sorry but you were involved and you know how much effort went into resolving this and things like the naming convention for Ireland, I was happy with one, unhappy with the other but we eventually resolved the issues and created a stable state on the BI articles which has stood for some time. If you or another editor wants to raise that issue again then it is beholden on them to look at the evidence base not just say "I prefer this". That sort of comment got you into trouble before, its disruptive. ----Snowded ^TALK 17:05, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, can decide for himself on what course he chooses to take, if any. GoodDay (talk) 17:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I choose to change it to constituent country. This consensus about the infobox may be obvious to Snowded but it most definitely is not to me from what I've seen. No relevance to the infobox has been shown and I'm not sure what all these references that are talked about are supposed to show. It would have been nice if there had been some talk about the actual problem but this might bring along someone who can actually describe the reasoning or citation support for this 'consensus' or point to where it is written down. Dmcq (talk) 17:58, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I just had a look at some of the other articles about semi-autonomous parts of sovereign states. Aruba, Faroe Isles, Cook Islands, Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic and many others simply leave out the status field, in fact the UK countries seem the odd ones out. I'll see if it is possible to simply leave out the field though it would have been nice to have something meaningful there. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Total removal is acceptable. Would also recommend it for the infoboxes at Wales, England & Scotland. GoodDay (talk) 18:22, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

If you want to change a long established consensus (and you have been given the link) then raise it and put a notice on all four country pages. If there is a agreement from all involved editors fine. Per the sources (including the EU) the four countries of the UK are called countries not semi-automimous parts ----Snowded ^TALK 19:40, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry you can't be bothered to engage properly in a discussion, and I find now you never bothered to figure out what this 'status' you are so interested was in aid of. The documentation says it means 'status of a country, particularly useful for micronations'. Not too informative so I looked up a list of micronations including various fantasy ones. Most of them even didn't use it but of the few hat did I found the values 'active', 'current', and 'government in exile'. Now can you tell us a good reason to stick 'country' in as status of country? Dmcq (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I engaged fully in the extensive discussion on this matter years ago, along with other related ones, to stop the edit warring and constant disputes. ----Snowded ^TALK 05:44, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you go and get someone who actually can make a good case to come instead of engaging in this stupidity please. Otherwise I'm afraid this is going to be an edit war with you saying no reason but reverting a good edit. Dmcq (talk) 08:43, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the status field in the Wales infobox in the hope that someone there can give some actual reasoning since the lead of that article is what the debate pointed at above was about. Dmcq (talk) 10:15, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

The stupidity if any is to raise a long settled issue then extend your personal preference to another article. I've reverted you there and you need to respect WP:BRD. See if others agree with you.----Snowded ^TALK 14:38, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

At this point, it's likely best that we await further input from other editors :) GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Yep I'm mainly waiting there as it was where this discussion Snowded pointed at was about, but I reverted Snowded as no reason was given besides this old dispute that never mentioned infobox or the status field in it. I put a note at the UK Project page but there's just crickets so far.. Dmcq (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

the note on the talk page of the Wales page makes it clear that there should be no change to the country status without consensus on the talk page. You've done the right thing in posting a notice for more editors to get involved. But you can't decide if another editors reasons are adequate or not. Your own opinion does not justify you in removing long standing text when that removal has been disputed. ----Snowded ^TALK 18:03, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no dispute if no reason is given for a dispute. There is simply someone troublemaking without reason. Dmcq (talk) 18:07, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Cities and towns by population

Us second class citizens can't edit everything so can some remove the Londonderry link from the subheading "Cities and towns by population" as per WP:DERRY. Can't imagine a link lasting that long for County Derry..................Thanks. 88.202.171.146 (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

No takers? 88.202.171.146 (talk) 18:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I've asked Canterbury Tail to sort this and I'm sure it will be done in line with guidelines ASAP. 213.106.57.162 (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

This is the last place that incorrectly links to L'Derry. FIX IT..... 213.106.57.162 (talk) 22:23, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I've just corrected that. The problem with Londonderry to Derry for the city is that it's actually difficult to identify cases where it's been changed, whereas finding references to County Derry is pretty easy. It's a limitation and complication of searching unfortunately. However it's been corrected now that it's been pointed out. Canterbury Tail talk 11:21, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

IRA terror campaigns against Northern Ireland prior to 1960s

It is rather odd that these events are not to be mentioned on any summary of Northern Ireland history. The narrative simply skips over these and give no context at all to the security situation faced by the Northern Ireland state. Namely the attacks during the Irish War of Independence#North-east, Northern Campaign (Irish Republican Army) and Border Campaign (Irish Republican Army).

Apparently even mentioning these warrants a "PoV edit" by the dominant Irish Nationalist contributors here (and the bias in the narrative in any of the historical sections really shows). IrishBriton (talk) 19:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Very true. BushelCandle (talk) 13:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Very good points, and events that truly do need detailed as they threatened the security and foundations of the state. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:13, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Odd edit

Mabuska, why have you piped the soccer team? What's the point? Gob Lofa (talk) 16:56, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The only edit that is odd and defies Wikipedia standards is your own Gob Lofa. You reverted my alterations to your subtle POV pushing, as well as my removal of tautology which you seem happy to insist enforcing on the article. It is no skin off my nose so I have made no fuss about my alterations being reverted, however I reverted your imposition of your alterations as you have no agreement for them and are simply POV pushing and slow edit-warring.

On those points, the very basis of this topic is redundant and utterly pointless and serves no purpose. Maybe discuss your own odd edit... Mabuska ^(talk) 11:23, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

You didn't answer my questions. What point of view do you believe I pushed? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:28, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Your job to make the case for change Gob Lofa ----Snowded ^TALK 12:55, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

OK. I'd like to unpipe the link to the soccer team. I can't see why it ought to be piped. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

You'd like to, Mabuska prefers the existing wording and on the face of it so do I. But I'm open to an argument to change it. ----Snowded ^TALK 14:31, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I support the pipe linking. We don't need to mention Northern Ireland more than once in a sentence. The full team article title feels clunky when used in the sentence, the piped version flows better and doesn't feel like it's an easter egg link as it's obvious what it's discussing. Canterbury Tail talk 15:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Why describe Best as a Northern Irish footballer rather than a Northern Ireland footballer? Many Northern Irish footballers play for the Republic, so I find your wording confusing. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Redundant argument. The few not many Northern Irish footballers that play for the Republic have chosen Irish as they identity and nationality. All that is needed to state for them is that they are Irish footballers from Northern Ireland. Northern Irish clearly suggests Northern Ireland. Simple. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:10, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Neither of you seems to have thought this through. Try to avoid this next time. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:57, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually Gob Lofa it is you who hasn't thought this through. My original edit which you reverted with your spurious "?" edit summary, a revert where you restored your edit that was objected to and duly reverted again by myself by restoring the article to the stable version before yours or my contested version. I never yapped or complained about your revert, and my original post in this topic stands as true as the day I typed it.

But seeing as we're here "discussing", clearly explain what was wrong with my original edit? Where are the exact problems? Or was it simply as always... a knee-jerk revert hoping to entice an adverse reaction? You claimed the edit was odd yet the edit smmary for it is as descriptive as you'll get for most edits on this site by many editors. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Why not just 'Northern Ireland', then there's no confusion? Your opposition seems unusually staunch. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

If there is confusion prove it. Your bias and POV on the issue of the term Northern Irish amongst other terms describing Northern Ireland is well known and only detracts from your arguments.

Also you have failed to respond to the question I posed... what was wrong with my edit? Nothing. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:19, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2016

I am requesting that the following be changed:
People born in Northern Ireland are, with some exceptions, deemed by UK law to be citizens of the United Kingdom.
to
People born in Northern Ireland are eligible to become British citizens, subject to British nationality law.

The current wording is extremely unclear. British nationality law is strict and simply being born in Northern Ireland does not grant you British citizenship. It depends on your parents and their nationality or residency status. 'With some exceptions' is extremely vague and this should be amended. Most people in Northern Ireland who claim a British passport are entitled to one because their parents have the legal right of abode there or are permanent residents.

159.92.238.60 (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

The next paragraph explains the exceptions pretty clearly - "Neither government, however, extends its citizenship to all persons born in Northern Ireland. Both governments exclude some people born in Northern Ireland, in particular persons born without one parent who is a British or Irish citizen. " The current wording is fine, I don't think it needs to be changed. I'm also not sure about the phrase "eligible to become"; as someone born in Northern Ireland, to Northern Irish parents, I am a British citizen, I'm not "eligible to become" one. Sarahj2107 (talk) 17:56, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

The problem with both the current and suggested replacement wording is that they imply that the place of birth is a highly relevant factor. But this is not true, because the majority of people born in NI have two UK citizen parents and would therefore be UK citizens no matter where they were born in the world. – Smyth\^talk 20:28, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2016

2A02:C7F:8616:7300:915D:4C45:5A04:DA28 (talk) 00:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

 Not done No is not protected, you're asking for a request on the wrong article, and the request is blank. —MRD2014 (talk • contribs) 00:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Maps

Doesn't this article need both a political map, as well as a topographic map? The current map shows only the location of Northern Ireland within its position in Europe - nothing more. Wouldn't it be useful to have a map that is informative of the towns and political subdivisions that comprise the political construction of "Northern Ireland." Also, is Northern Ireland simply a flat land with no bodies of water? If it is then, of course, there would be little use in a topographic illustration of any sort, however, if that is not the case, than it may be informative for those perusing the article to see an illustration of its surface or terrain...Just a thought. Regards. Stevenmitchell (talk) 16:01, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Euro

in the infobox. NI uses the £, so why is the Euro being used?  — Calvin999 11:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Probably to give an easy point of comparison between other countries. Canterbury Tail talk 13:24, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Unless I'm going mad, the infobox says NI's currency is the pound sterling. Mooretwin (talk) 13:38, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I believe they mean for the GDPs. Those values come from an EU source so the values are in Euros, which is the reasoning there. Canterbury Tail talk 13:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I see. I had a look at Wales it uses £. The England and Scotland articles use $. Not sure what to make of that. Mooretwin (talk) 13:54, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

They are British subject articles so all of them should be using the £. The Euro and Dollar should be stated in brackets if necessary. I can't imagine United States having the Euro or £ in its infobox. Someone would probably say there should be a protest march lol  — Calvin999 11:02, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Well you'll need a source that quotes the figures in £s then. Canterbury Tail talk 13:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Political point of view?

It says in the lede that "Ireland was partitioned". Isn't this statement a political viewpoint? An alternative viewpoint (and no less a fact) would be that the United Kingdom was partitioned. A more neutral viewpoint would perhaps be that Southern Ireland sought independence, which it eventually gained in stages when it created its parliament, created its constitution in 1937, and became a Republic in 1948/9. --24.182.92.247 (talk) 15:10, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

A fair point. For good or ill the term 'partition' tends to be used in a pejorative sense. That said, I suspect 'partition' is a term used by most secondary sources, and I think it will be difficult to come up with an alternative form of words that avoids the term while maintaining brevity. Mooretwin (talk) 15:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

It is accurate in the sense that it refers to the island of Ireland. Any island with more than one country can be refered to as partitioned without any POV on whether it should be or not. Perhaps adding in the words 'island of' could help clarify. Eckerslike (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

"Top-level constituent unit"

What happened to "part"? Way to confuse everyone before they've even reached the second sentence. — Jon C.^ॐ 13:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

That is the technical and best possible neutral legal term given historical context. "Part" can be perceived as Unionist or Nationalist depending on the reader. Not the best solution, but we're talking about a territory without a flag or currently even an assembly--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 16:48, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

"Top-level constituent unit" is an horrendous phrase which confuses rather than clarifies. It does not help non-native speakers and those just learning about Northern Ireland's status. Yes, "part" can be "perceived as Unionist or Nationalist" but "part" is also true. The debate is not whether Northern Ireland is part of or a country of the U.K. (Does anyone dispute that? Please provide the WP:Third party source.) but whether it should be. The current confusing euphemism should be replaced with either "part", which is the term that the citation uses, or with "country of the United Kingdom" which is the title of the linked article and which is the term in the infobox. "Top-level constituent unit" is a phrase that only a bureaucrat can love. --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 03:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

"part" is the most neutral whilst factual way of putting it. It is also a country/nation of the UK as the UK government frequently refer to it as such but "part" saves arguments with those that can't accept that fact. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@Iloilo Wanderer: and @Mabuska:, I agree that the phrase is clunky and weird and smugly bureaucratic. The citation for it is the Encyclopedia Britannia page which is the subtitle of the page, although it also describes NI as "part" of the UK. Is there any document by Her Majesty's Government or otherwise on what NI is specifically designated as? Otherwise yeah, part is fine.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 14:59, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The online version of Britannica leaves a lot to be desired and even calls its own integrity into question. In all technicality Northern Ireland is designated as a province of the United Kingdom, however it is often called/referred to as a region and country as well as other terms. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:25, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I see....gah, this is annoying, I hope there is a clarification soon when/if the Assembly finally gets in order. Thanks for the edit.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 17:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The term "part of..", should be used in the intros of England, Wales & Scotland as well. Good luck with that. GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The long standing agreed text was " It is variously described as a country, province, region, or "part" of the United Kingdom, amongst other terms." which was informative, accurate and pretty neutral. I don't see any real consensus or discussion to change that other than a legitimate horror of "Top-level constituent unit" There is no question that country, province and region are all supported by citation. ----Snowded ^TALK 05:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

That's correct and so it should be returned to. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:10, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Just looking and what you say Snowded is still there in the following sentence. I have also fixed the text in question to what it was before silly addition of top-level, I.e. "constituent unit", which also matches what the infobox uses for "type". Mabuska ^(talk) 18:17, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I've restored "part" & made adjustments to following sentence. GoodDay (talk) 19:25, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

My initial change to part was based on a misunderstanding of what used to be there. The long standing term used is constituent unit not part as I assumed and thus fixed it. Also as Snowded said their is also no concensus to change the following sentence. I expect you to not reimpose the change once I revert it, but instead discuss it. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:11, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

How about using "constituent part"? GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

That's simply splitting hairs. There is no need for stating anything other than constituent if we wanted. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:36, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Irish

please change ((Irish)) to ((Irish language|Irish)) contribs (talk)

Already done by BD2412 (talk). regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:10, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Status and type

It seems a bit pointless to have a Status and type parameter saying Country and constituent unit in the info box?  — Calvin999 11:25, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Flag Issue ----- Proposal

The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag and the Ulster Banner flag is consistently used to represents Northern Ireland.

Could we perhaps follow the New New Caledonia format: showing the Official flag of France and then the Independence (though not official) flag of New Caledonia.

In following this format, this article can show the official flag of Northern Ireland (Being the Union Flag) and then showing the Ulster Banner next to it. I suggest this because despite it not being the official flag, it 'represents' Northern Ireland in sports and so on, as stated in the "Flag of Northern Ireland" article.

Could this be possible? Dean Frankling (talk) 11:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

What's the point of showing a flag if it doesn't have its own flag and showing one will just cause a dispute? The article Flag of Northern Ireland covers the topic adequately if people want to know about it. Or you could try and get the people there or at Northern Ireland flags issue to come around to your point of view :) Dmcq (talk) 11:49, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Considering the Union Flag is the official flag for Northern Ireland disregarding sport and non-official use, it could hardly cause a dispute on its own. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:13, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd support this. The Ulster banner is easily as official as the flag of New Caledonia, as well as lots of other territories' articles: cf. Labrador, Benelux, Wake Island, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, etc., etc. — Jon C.^ॐ 13:37, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd also support this as per the reasoning above. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Support. I think it's due time that this article show some sort of flag, and the de facto usage right now is the Union Jack, and the Ulster banner should be added below. @Jon C.:'s examples also reinforce this, and for my own recent work I would like to point out Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Although the situation is slightly different and doesn't necessitate putting that militaric territory's unofficial flag below the Jack, the UK flag is the de facto banner of the Sovereign Base Areas. I would support using the Union Jack and Ulster Banner for NI with a sufficient note or clarification added to bolster NPOV.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 14:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

How about just the Union flag then if you're really desperate to show a flag? That might about work but putting in the Ulster banner is just asking for sectarian trouble on the page. Dmcq (talk) 14:13, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Enyclopedia Britannica and Google (search Northern Ireland and see box on right) officially use the Union Jack and the Ulster Banner respectively to represent NI. Although they aren't government institutions, hey are more than respectable enough as internet titans (and appeared to not have caused any notable controversy against them over the years) to further bolster the case for using both flags in the infobox. Although if the Ulster Banner is that controversial (though controversy shouldn't be an argument, see WP:CENSOR), I suppose just the Jack would be sufficient. Something is better than nothing.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 14:17, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Revert @Sigehelmus: I checked Encyclopaedia Britannica, and unlike their articles on England, Wales and Scotland, their article on Northern Ireland does not include a flag in the infobox. Also, Google does not 'officially' use the Ulster Banner; the Google Knowledge Graph uses data automatically collected from many internet sources, and sometimes this data is inaccurate.--Coyotecymraeg (talk) 01:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

It's there, look at the bottom of the article and you'll see a big Union Jack. As for Google, it's been there a long time and not a single user seems to have complained about it from my searches. You don't think at least one ardent Nationalist would have seen the Banner when searching for his homeland on the universal search engine? And Google is known for being *remarkably* PC, if there was so much polemic potential it would have been removed a long time ago.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 02:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica has claims to be a reliable source while a Google info box doesn't. The fact that the Union Jack is at the bottom of the EB article is irrelevant - it is another media resource. Both the Union Jack (possibly) and the Ulster Banner (certainly) should appear in the body of the article with proper context ----Snowded ^TALK 07:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I have edited in both the Union Jack and the Ulster Banner in the infobox, with footnote for clarification. Is this design alright? I tried to do the best I could with the infobox template's limitations.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 14:33, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks good.Apollo The Logician (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I've reworded the footnote a bit. I'm not sure "brandished" is a particularly good term here (brings to mind someone waving a knife around) and made clear the banner is especially used in sporting contexts (Fifa, Commonwealth Games, etc.). See what you think. — Jon C.^ॐ 15:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree about the term brandished however disagree with your amendments Jon. It makes it too vague and with the article link provided in the original readers can find out more about who specifically uses the flag. What is there is good now and does the job. Further changes I think should be discussed first. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Had one more go. It was still pretty clunky. If anyone reverts again I'll of course bring it here. Cheers, — Jon C.^ॐ 15:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with it as it over complicates it but will not violate 1rr over it, though in a way you have violated it. Considering three editors like what was there if you ignore the brandished word then you should discuss it first especially after getting reverted. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:18, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Self-rv'd (even the grammatical fixes). — Jon C.^ॐ 15:20, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your revisions @Jon C.: and @Mabuska:, I just have one quarrel: Is the Ulster Banner really the de facto flag? I'm not sure, it seems like its use is scattered among so many things and that term might be contentious suggesting like it is near-universally used in reality. I'm not totally sure insomuch as it's almost like it has a unique status; that's why I just put it as "Ulster Banner". What do you think?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 15:38, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree de facto is not the right description.Apollo The Logician (talk) 15:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted it back to "Ulster Banner" for now to keep NPOV (I think).--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 15:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

It can be considered de facto however there will always be those who disagree because of the de jure or personal antipathy, so best keeping it as neutral as possible to avoid arguments. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:39, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Well they seem to have stayed there for a few days without trouble. It looks like I just drove down Newtownards Road and I'm not keen on it but all that flags business seems to have died down quite a bit now thankfully. Dmcq (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Melodramatic much? Some editors always seem to hype up an edit-warring apocalypse that never materialises. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

It isn't right or logical to have the Ulster Banner where it is. Further down the page where it's controversy can be explain would be more appropriate. Then, there already is an article on that. Articles relating to Northern Ireland should always reach a fair factual consensus; like with the Derry~Londonderry argument. Skyifictionable (talk) 19:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

What constitutes a "fair factual consensus" to you? Do you not see the massive discussion right above your post? The current alignment was agreed upon as the most NPOV configuration; Northern Ireland's flag issue is sui generis and showing the de jure flag alongside the flag that is considered de facto (and is still not called such for neutrality's sake) by a large portion of the population and is dear to them as their identity is what was agreed as optimal. Is it perfect? No, but the same can be said for many other nations and territories. If anything, your suggestion would lean more towards a bias (at least to some groups). The Ulster Banner displayed equally with a sufficient footnote is the best solution that has reached consensus IMO.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 01:13, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I thought we weren't gonna use any flag, like at Countries of the United Kingdom. Anyways, whatever. GoodDay (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Not quite sure about these flag additions. We need some veteran British editors views & I think @Snowded:, @Daicaregos: & @Ghmyrtle: are the ones. GoodDay (talk) 19:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Um I think it's a little bit more than a coincidence that the specific users you invited, at least 2 of them would seem to be against the Ulster Banner displayed looking at their flags and userboxes...I'm not suggesting anything per se and I despise ad hominem attacks, but considering your own page as well I don't think it's fair that you pinged users who will probably decide in a certain position. 99 times out of 100 I would never say something like this but it's in bad taste here. Again, nothing personal but a bit unfair. Please address my and others' points specifically instead of calling in friends because the sight of a neutral infobox irks you so.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 20:17, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

They're the only British editors that I know. I don't presume to know what stance they'll take here. FWIW, I've often been at odds with the 3 individuals-in-question in the past, concerning British articles. GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

What specific problem do you have with the current setup? Every territory — even every unrecognized territory — has a flag of some kind. For all intents and purposes, Northern Ireland's official flag as it stands now is the Union Jack. However, the Ulster Banner has presence and favoritism by many groups, entities and organizations, including groups that aren't even necessarily Unionist. Both are notorious flags and Northern Ireland's political case as it has been for decades and especially in recent weeks has been precarious and unique, and as you see above the present setup doesn't seem to slant bias one way or the other. Having just the Union Jack would appear biased and insufficient if not "home rule-ist", and having the Ulster Banner itself would of course be controversial. The current infobox explains everything there needs to be known fairly efficiently. If you could please show how having no flag whatsoever in the infobox would be optimal, please feel free to explain here. Many sources currently choose one flag or the other, including titans such as the Encyclopedia Britannica and Google (Jack and Banner respectively), and I've seen little to no outcry about it. I don't see how much more neutral we can get without becoming reductionist.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 22:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I had the page under watch anyway but have kept out of the issue for some time having had just about enough of it being raised again and again. But if you want a view then you now have two flags which are liked by one section of the community and largely despised by the other. The note that explains the use of the Ulster Banner mentions no controversy whatsoever. Some recent use is a few sports doesn't justify the use. Also most of the arguments above are synthesis or opinion not based on sources. There are no reliable sources that establish a specific flag and the best solution remains to leave it blank. If you are going on use then you should show three - add in the tricolour. Oh, and GoodDay is allowed to ping editors who have previously taken part in debates and have a longer history of editing it. I've criticised GoodDay enough in the past that supporting him on this one is an exception :-) ----Snowded ^TALK 04:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Culling the use of the Ulster Bannerto "in a few sports" is disingenuous on a good day. There are many organizations and the entities discussed above that use or display it. The controversy is also implicitly directed by linking to the Flag of Northern Ireland article in the footnote. That's not even an issue as it can be easily fixed. The current beauty of the iconic is that it displays the Flags of that as used in official diplomacy and administration, the old Union Jack, and the Flag used many groups and people majorly but not even necessarily Unionist, and even then it is not claimed as the de facto flag. I see absolutely no case for synthesis here, any accusation of that is frivilous. Please tell me how Encyclopedia Britannica and Google are somehow not WP:RS as well. There is no case to be made here except restoring the blank status quo which was needlessly ineffectual and taking neutrality to ridiculous extremes. The Flags must stay.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 05:35, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Revert Why is the flag of the United Kingdom in the infobox of this article? It doesn't appear in the articles on England, Scotland and Wales.

And why is the Ulster Banner shown? Even the accompanying footnote even says that flag has no official status and its use is charged and contentious. The argument that it is used by "some sporting organisations" is immaterial to this article. Many flags are used to represent Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland in sport. During opening ceremony the Olympic Games, for example, Saint Patrick's Saltire was used to represent Northern Ireland. Where sporting organisations use those flags, we use those flags. Where they do not, we do not.

I'm sure the OP was acting in good faith, but everybody here knows about the Northern Ireland flags issue and there's no need to go stirring the pot or stirring up nationalist (British, Irish, or any other) emotions. It doesn't benefit the article. The previous version lasted well enough for years. There's no need to kick that hornets' nest now. --Tóraí (talk) 09:07, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

The fact is that England, Wales and Scotland have their own flags that have been used through custom and historically for years. NI is the only one that had theirs revoked legislatively. Therefore by de jure their flag is the Union Jack, as with the Flag of Akrotiri and Dhekelia where the Union Jack is used by default where there is no other flag used. The Ulster Banner is used in there as per the argument that New Caledonia uses the flag of the parent nation and the flag that is used by the majority of the people as a de facto flag to represent them. Whether its the legal flag or not is not a matter, if by common custom and popular demand it is recognised as their flag by the majority of people there, we should reflect that as such. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:23, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, the flag of the United Kingdom is the flag of the United Kingdom, and not of Northern Ireland, no matter where you are in the UK. If we're not showing it for England, Scotland and Wales then we should not be showing it here.

The fact is that England, Wales and Scotland have their own flags that have been used through custom and historically for years [whereas Northern Ireland does not].
— User:The C of E

...if by common custom and popular demand [the Ulster Banner] is recognised as their flag by the majority of people there, we should reflect that as such.
— User:The C of E

There is a contradiction between these two sentences.

The first says that Northern Ireland does not have a flag through custom and therefore the UK flag should be shown. The second says that the Ulster Banner is the flag of Northern Ireland through custom and therefore it should be shown. It cannot be both. --Tóraí (talk) 11:32, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

agree, both should be removed per long standing consensus, there wasn't really a consensus when they put in with some editors opposed, now more are getting involved. Should be reverted ----Snowded ^TALK 11:45, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

It seems that most of the reasoning behind bringing back the blank infobox relies upon argumentum ad antiquitatem. Just because it's been that way "for years" is a fallacy. So what if it "stirs the pot"? That's hardly with the spirit of Wikipedia. The Union Jack is the flag used to represent NI by law. The Ulster Banner represents NI for many by tradition and usage. Practically every other site besides us acknowledges this reality. Besides perhaps slight revision of the footnote, there is no reason to provide no flag whatsoever.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 13:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Just because a space is blank doesn't mean it has to be filled. That's like the people on Wikipedia who keep sticking in a religion for a person into their infobox even if it has precious little to do with them. The general agreement now is not to stick in fields like that unless they are relevant or notable for them in some way. Perhaps you'd like to put down that it is a protestant country because most of the inhabitants are protestant? Dmcq (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

That's not comparable...what other contemporary territory or state's article lacks a flag?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 16:02, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Northern Ireland has many characteristics not shared by other countries. You seem to want consistency over sources which is really not wikipedia policy. If the Ulster Banner is there then any flag ever used to represent Northern Ireland needs to be, The facts are simple - there is no unique Northern Ireland Flag, unlike the other three countries that make up the UK. That the UK has constituent countries is also pretty unique. Once upon a time there was a flag, but it was sectarian and linked to a particular community. For that reason it is no longer the flag. As far as I can see a majority of editors are for the long standing 'no flag' position, there are insufficient editors for a flag (or flags) to justify a change to a long standing stable aspect of the article ----Snowded ^TALK 16:28, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Just on a point of information, it is not true that there is no longer a flag because 'it was sectarian and linked to a particular community'. The reason that the Ulster Banner no longer has official status is because it represented the Government of Northern Ireland that ceased to exist in 1972. Since that time, the flag has had no official status, though it continues to be used in unofficial and semi-official capacity for some purposes. Mooretwin (talk) 08:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Does Northern Ireland have a flag, in the manner that England , Scotland & Wales does? It appears not. Thus it's best to remove the Union Jack & Ulster Banner. GoodDay (talk) 16:35, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

I see the point of @Snowded: and you. But by law and purpose the Union Jack is used for various purposes when Northern Ireland needs to be represented. Similar for the Banner. Should the visitors to this site just be forsaken the chance to know this without directly searching for it?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 16:52, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

It isn't similar or the Banner, it was used then its use was abandoned as it represented a sectarian perspective. The text of the article has always made this clear so the information is there. But the banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, it does not belong in the information box. The Union Jack is used generically for the United Kingdom so its a fall back - again that can be easily accessible with a proper explanation in the main body of the article Its use in the information box is misleading ----Snowded ^TALK 18:16, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Again on a point of information its used wasn't 'abandoned as it represented a sectarian perspective'. Rather, the Government that the flag represented ceased to exist. Mooretwin (talk) 08:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

The template infobox country has a Religion field. Why should people have to search for the main religion of the population? Why exactly should it not be set but the flag field should be set? Dmcq (talk) 18:20, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Because the lack of a filled religion field implies secularism? That's enough false equivalencies for noe, you're not making a point.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 19:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Not what I meant but good enough. Voting for the DUP or UUP is no more an indication of a majority support for the Ulster Banner than it is evidence that a majority of the population is Protestant. And in fact the article says 41.5% identify with some Protestant denomination as opposed to 41% as Catholic - so neither is an overall majority. And a lot of people [3] are sick and tired of the flags. As to your 'Because the lack of a filled religion field implies secularism?' - what does an empty flags field imply except perhaps an absence of a specific widely supported flag - which is true. Dmcq (talk) 20:42, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner must go, as it's not the flag of Northern Ireland. As for the Union Jack? that's the UK flag & unless we're going to put the Union Jack into the infoboxes at England, Scotland & Wales? then it too must be removed. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

In fairness, Sigehelmus, the argument for inclusion appear to be argumentum ad infobox placeholder.

The reality, complex as it is, is that Northern Ireland doesn't have a definitive or agreed flag at the moment. If it did, the civil administration in Northern Ireland would fly it, just as the civil administrations in England, Scotland and Wales fly their respective flags. And just as the civil administration in New Caledonia does.

Northern Ireland is not unique in this. The island of Ireland doesn't have a definitive or agreed flag either at the moment, despite it also having sporting teams that are represented by various flags, just like Northern Ireland teams are.

This is why the placeholder was left empty for so long, not argumentum ad antiquitatem.

As for the Union Flag, do you have a reliable source to say that it is the flag of Northern Ireland? Because as we all know, even its flying is restricted by the civil administration in Northern Ireland. And it would seem strange that the civil administration in Northern Ireland would restrict display of the flag of Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland. --Tóraí (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

As there have been claims about the de jure and customary practice of flags in Northern Ireland, here is the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000: http://legislation.data.gov.uk/nisr/2000/347/made/data.htm?wrap=true

The regulations describe the days on which the Union flag, Royal Standard and European flag (only) may be flown at government buildings in Northern Ireland. "Except as provided by these Regulations, no flag shall be flown at any government building at any time." --Tóraí (talk) 20:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

I see, after reading these and quickly skimming your links but I will look more deeply right after...what you are saying is the reality is by both law and practice there is effectively no vexillogical standard for Northern Ireland? I would be open to this, but I just can't get over the old blank infobox. Is there anything at all that can be put in its place to direct and clarify readers?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 20:54, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

We can simply put in text to the effect that following the GFA the Flag Regulations Act states that .... ----Snowded ^TALK 03:24, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

As you say, the reality is that there is no "vexillogical standard for Northern Ireland" so I've restored the long standing position that reflects that position. Change requires consensus ----Snowded ^TALK 07:53, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

There is also nothing in law to say the St George's Cross is the flag of England, or indeed any legislation cementing the Union flag as that of the UK.

However, as Tóraí has pointed about above there are flag regulations as regards NI, which state that only the Union flag may be flown (as well as the EU flag on Europe Day). So we need to decide what criteria we're using here – if we want the de jure flag to represent Northern Ireland it's the Union flag, and so should be shown in the infobox.

If, however, we want the de facto flag almost universally used to represent NI when a unique flag is needed, it's undoubtedly the Ulster Banner – see for example Northern Ireland's team bus from Euro 2016…

So which is it to be? — Jon C.^ॐ 09:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Firstly there was clearly no real consensus to put flags in there and most editors are opposed so I think you were wrong to reinstate a very recent change, but 1rr applies to this article. The Flag regulations are very specific and create a different context from the St George's Cross - there is not the same history, Ignoring original research or synthesis of selected sources what evidence do you have that the Ulster Banner is the "de jure" position? ----Snowded ^TALK 09:17, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think most editors are opposed. I count you, Tóraí and GoodDay.

It's not the de jure flag – it isn't official – but its use as the only flag to represent Northern Ireland when one is needed is ample evidence of its status de facto. Failing that, we stick the Union flag in there on its own as the only 'official' flag for NI. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

And three for inclusion with Sigehelmus starting to look at the evidence. You know that is not sufficient to change a long standing position on a controversial subject. Otherwise I am more than happy to accept that you believe that there is more than amble evidence, unfortunately in wikipedia such a view from an editor is insufficient without sources. If you are right then reliable sources should make the claim. ----Snowded ^TALK 09:24, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Is the Royal Mint a reliable source? — Jon C.^ॐ 09:35, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Please see multiple points made above. There is no dispute that it has been used in some cases, as has St Patrick's Saltire. The point is if it represents Northern Ireland. For that you need a reliable third party source. 101 Wikipedia ----Snowded ^TALK 09:38, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Let's have both in the infobox then, with explanations. St Patrick's saltire was used for the Diamond Jubilee. Maybe you could also see multiple points above how officialdom isn't necessary to have a flag in an infobox on Wikipedia, merely common use. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:40, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Starting to think we're going to need an RfC on this one. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:41, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

They should all be in the body of the article with explanations as to their use, but you have to have a third party source or two to put it int he info box as representing Northern Ireland. We've been through this on Wales, Scotland and England and sources could be found. So why not here? ----Snowded ^TALK 09:43, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have had it all from canvassing to trolling to outright hypocrisy and closet bigotry. Firstly GoodDay is simply a troll in this discussion who blatantly canvassed 3 of the most nationalist editors they could under the claim they where the only 3 British editors he knew which is complete balderdash. 3 editors who he knew would back up the against view if they all responded. Secondly the hypocrisy of editors who cite flag legislation to state there is officially no NI flag yet at the Londonderry article ignore officialdom when giving their undivided support to Derry. Snowdeds entire argument about needing sources on Wikipedia is completely at odds with the fact there is no sources that state that the official name of Londonderry is anything other yet look at the article title. Then you have editors who are simply objecting because of their own personal ideology. Next you have the red herring of long standing consensus, which is pointless as we all know consensus can change and is a cop out for those scared it might change. The entire discussion is a mess and a joke, just like the recent addition of "dubious" tags. Sky is blue anyone? Mabuska ^(talk) 10:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

In fact we could even put (1953 to 1972) under the Ulster Banner to state when it was official, which sorts out the entire issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:08, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps I should say 'Melodramatic much?' about all that like you said to me above. How about just notifying people in the relevant projects if you want less biased canvassing? Or raise an RfC like Jon C said? Dmcq (talk) 11:17, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Difference is at least what I said has substance and is pretty evident unlike your continued expectations of an edit warring apocalypse which have still failed to materialise. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:22, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

A requirement for sources is standard in Wikipedia Mabuska and we went through this (as i said) when flags were dispute in Wales and England. If you are right on the subject then there will be sources, find them and please stop the personal attacks it really doesn't help ----Snowded ^TALK 11:47, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Me a troll? Mabuska, I'd throw Northern Ireland's flag at you for that personal attack, if they had their own flag, but they don't. It does indeed appear as though an Rfc will be required. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Not a personal attack if true and you are being a troll in this discussion. And NI does have its own flag, just because its not official in government and opposed by a minority doesn't mean it doesn't have one per common usage, unless hundreds of thousands of people who use it in Northern Ireland as well as various organisations don't exist. Keep telling yourself that. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:23, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Open an Rfc on this topic, please. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding flags as far as I am aware the only constituent country flag that is officially adopted is that of Scotland, with Wales I don't think the Welsh flag has officially been adopted although I may be wrong and the England flag has definitely not been adopted as the official flag of England. Nevertheless all of them are featured in their respective articles at their flags admittedly its much less controversial than Northern Ireland however I would still say that the Ulster Banner is what most people would associate with being the flag of Northern Ireland. C. 22468 Talk to me 23:10, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Those questions were asked on the Wales and England pages and sources were found which established their status - de facto in the case of England and official in the case of Wales. The simple question here is to ask for similar sources. If as advocates claim the Ulster Banner (despite its historical associates with one side of the conflict) is the de facto flag then it will be fine to include it. Without such sources it is just the opinion of editors and/or original research and synthesis. It is a very simple request ----Snowded ^TALK 06:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree about the point about the Union Flag being unsuitable as it is the flag of the United Kingdom as a whole not Northern Ireland as a regional entity. Northern Ireland does have no de jure regional flag at present, even though the Ulster Banner more than qualifies due to wide common usage within Northern Ireland if you ignore the complaints of a minority. If it was a sectarian banner then why does Rory McIlroy a Catholic drape himself in it? May as well state the Irish tricolour as being the bloody flag of terrorists due to the IRA.

Having said that there is a place for the Ulster Banner in the infobox if we simply add in the years it was Northern Ireland's de jure flag as I suggested above but everyone seems to have willingly glanced over. Here's how it looks on my sandbox. Maybe make the text bigger if possible or whatever but there is nothing inaccurate or controversial about it as it is the only specific distinct regional flag Northern Ireland has ever had so there can be no arguments over what historical NI flag to use. It is a perfectly reasonable compromise. Though as the flag was granted in 1924 it maybe should be used instead of 1953?

Just a pity [4] is no longer up due to copyright violation. From 59m:50s onwards what do we see at the Queen's official 90th birthday celebrations on 15th May 2016 broadcast live on TV? On that's right the Ulster Banner flown on horseback alongside the flags of England, Scotland and Wales. Good enough for the head of state of the UK to use it to represent NI.... Mabuska ^(talk) 14:23, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, the Union Jack should be deleted as it is the UK flag. We don't have it in the infoboxes of England, Scotland & Wales, therefore it shouldn't be in this infobox. There's no Canadian flag in the Canadian provinces/territories infoboxes or American flag in the American states infoboxes, etc etc. As for the Ulster Banner, it does appear to be the main issue here. Again best we have an Rfc. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I must commend @Mabuska: for his idea of showing the Ulster Banner itself with proper note and clarification...perhaps the Jack is a bit extraneous.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 17:56, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Sigehelmus. At GoodDay, what's the point of a RfC if editors already involved don't bother responding to arguments and compromise solutions? Not once in your reply did you even make mention of what you thought of the compromise so what was the worth of the response? RfC's aren't to help create for or against headcounts, its for external views from hopefully NPOV editors but at the end of the day it is still up for consensus to move forward and that means the editors who are contributing before the RfC such as yourself needing to find some form of compromise or agreement. But if you aren't even willing to discuss or give a view on a compromise or possible solution but just continually provide virtually bare objections then what's the point. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

No sources then Mabuska? You observe that the Ulster Banner is used at a historical pageant - I doubt the Queen designed that and you have no idea of context of use. You are observing a couple of uses and from that drawing conclusions - original research or synthesis We don't respond to arguments we respond to sources, especially when the use of the Ulster Banner is considered sectarian by a substantial proportion of the Northern Ireland population. Sources can be found for Wales and England and state their flags are official or de defect. If the Ulster banner is to have either status it must be sourced, not just based on synthesis Time we got objective I will make an attempt below ----Snowded ^TALK 20:47, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

The British flag should not be in the infobox, for the reasons I gave in my 'edit summary'. As for the Ulster Banner? if the required sources are presented, then have it. Remember though: We shouldn't have any flag in the infobox, just for the sake of having a flag in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree no flag, but having the Ulster Banner on its own implies it has status which it doesn't. Of course neither flag should be there pending agreement but wee have few edit barriers here ----Snowded ^TALK 06:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Flags would it be a good idea to do a similar thing to do what happens with Akrotiri and Dhekelia and previously Ascension Island where neither of them had an official flag so the flag that is used to represent the territory is used which in both cases was the United Kingdom flag. C. 22468 Talk to me 09:33, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Seems quite clear some editors don't want to seek a compromise solution. That's two objectors (GoodDay twice and Snowded) who clearly failed to once remark on my compromise solution, which can be easily sourced fulfilling Snowded's precondition. Need I say anymore about editors intentions but then again a look through the archives at Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland shows Snowded to be one of the biggest objectors to the Ulster Banner on any grounds possible. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:01, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

When did you get so fired up about adding the UB? GoodDay (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@Coolguy22468: I'm unfamiliar with the example of Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Can I ask, is the flying of the UK flag from government buildings restricted in Akrotiri and Dhekelia as it is in Northern Ireland? --Tóraí (talk) 14:58, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd be happy to follow the example of Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Dmcq (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

It does seem strange, however, if the Union flag is the flag of Northern Ireland, that its display from government buildings in Norhern Ireland would be restricted to a set number of days under Northern Ireland law. And is there any source that says the Union Flag is used to represent Northern Ireland, as opposed to the UK? --Tóraí (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Akrotiri and Dhekelia and Ascension Island (2010) what I was on about was as neither had an officially sanctioned flag they just used flag used for official purposes within the territory as the flag for the infobox rather like how Johnston Atoll uses the United States flag as that is the official flag of the territory. Regardless of regulations and how controversial it is in Northern Ireland though the flag of the United Kingdom is still the official flag. C. 22468 Talk to me 16:23, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of regulations and how controversial it is in Northern Ireland though the flag of the United Kingdom is still the official flag.

Of the United Kingdom. But this article is about Northern Ireland. And the prohibitions on the display of even the United Kingdom flag on government buildings in Northern Ireland should rings bells that this is not a situation like others.

The previous situation was to show no flags on this article. That would appear to be closer to the official position also. --Tóraí (talk) 18:59, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposed compromise

Considering Snowded and GoodDay are intent on ignoring my requests for views on a potential compromise solution, and other objectors in the same discussion overlooking it or intentionally not commenting on it I am reposting it here in its own section so that it can be easily seen by all and discussed if anyone wishes too.

As the main sticking point for the objectors is the fact the Ulster Banner is no longer de jure and thus in their eyes invalid for use, then why not simply provide the date that it was de jure such as I have done in an example in my User:Mabuska/sandbox. Maybe make the years bigger and add the hatnote that was added to the Ulster Banner at the start of this discussion and what complaints can you have? Its easy to reference that this was the de jure flag between those years so there can be no sourcing issues either.

Most of us seem to agree that there is no need for the Union Flag as that is the flag of the UK as a whole not for a specific region, and removing it and only using the Ulster Banner keeps it consistent with the other three UK constituent country articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree with leaving out the UK flag. @Banner: it has its place in an article about flags in Northern Ireland, but as it is not the official flag of N.I., I would keep the situation without flags in the infobox. Cuoregr (talk) 10:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with using the Ulster Banner in the infobox with annotations as it makes it clear. However I wouldn't rule out the Union Flag if we continuously have biased objections as that is the default flag in the absence of one as we do it for Akrotiri and Dhekelia. It should be one or the other but it would be better if we use the Ulster Banner. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Cuoregr: @The C of E: - just to point out in case it was missed, the main point of the compromise is the addition of when the flag was official. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The point wasn't missed, but IMHO it's better to have no flag as long as there is no official flag. I do like the efforts to reach a compromise, but I fail to see why a flag that is forbidden to be flown from (some/all?) NI official buildings should be on this prominent spot on Wikipedia. In case you're wondering: this has nothing to do with taking sides. I love my own flag, but I would also like to see it removed from places where it doesn't belong. Cuoregr (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not opposing the compromise, I support it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The British flag should be excluded from infobox. This isn't the article United Kingdom. As for the Ulster Banner? Either it presently is the flag of Northern Ireland or it is not. If it is, put in the infobox, otherwise leave it out. GoodDay (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

By that rationale we should then follow the example of Akrotiri and Dhekelia and use the Union Flag as they use it by default owing to the lack of an official individual flag. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

My concern is the UK constituent countries. The Union Jack isn't in the infoboxes of England, Scotland & Wales, therefore it shouldn't be the infobox of Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 14:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

In the body of the article but not the information box is the most sensible, However the whole idea is to assemble all the sources, get a neutral admin to manage the agreement of a text for an RFI then see. Show some patience ----Snowded ^TALK 18:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There is no real compromise between having the Ulster Banner in the infobox and not having the Ulster Banner in the infobox. Saying it is de facto or whatever is not a compromise, one might as well say putting the text in a different font or size is a compromise. It used to be the flag of Northern Ireland and it is still referred to that because nothing better has been substituted, but it is not the flag of Northern Ireland and it does not enjoy general support as the flag of Northern Ireland. I am not convinced even Unionists in general are happy with it being waved around in their name.

I would be happy with either no flag or the Union Flag being in the box. There was a referendum and the majority supported the Union. There is an argument about it not being specific but until an actual flag of Northern Ireland comes along I think that is a reasonable choice. Dmcq (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Not sure. I support either the Jack or the Banner being displayed, depending on whether we consider de iure or de facto to be superior for representation of administrative entities.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 17:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

There is a symbols section in the article. It has the flax plant (a relatively new symbol) but not the Ulster Banner. I would support the inclusion of the Ulster Banner in that section given its frequent use to represent Northern Ireland in sport. But not any other flag. And I'd remove the coat of arms from the history section, as its inclusion there could be perceived as pointed.

I don't think it's possible to have the Ulster Banner in the infobox so long as it remains prohibited from being display on government buildings in Northern Ireland. Its prohibition makes clear that it is not a de jure flag of Northern Ireland - and if a flag is prohibited from display on government buildings in a territory then it's pretty hard to claim with confidence that it is the de facto flag of that territory either.

I think the most sensible position is to recognise that at this time Northern Ireland has no flag (no more or less than the island of Ireland has sporting teams, but, at this time, no flag). --Tóraí (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Geographic areas normally don't have their own flags though.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 20:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

They also don't normally have sporting organisation either. In both cases, Ireland and Northern Ireland, we're dealing with exceptional examples.

The reason I mentioned it is because a/the main argument in favour of adding the Ulster Banner to the infobox here appears to be that some sporting organisations use it to represent Northern Ireland. Likewise, all-island sporting organisations (e.g. GAA, IRFU, Golfing Union of Ireland, Irish Amateur Boxing Association, etc.) have used the Four Provinces Flag, so the same argument would apparently apply.

I'm not convinced in either case. We use those flags in articles relating to those specific sports and organisations. But where it is not specific, such as here, we don't. --Tóraí (talk) 08:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I take it you are talking about the 2000 Flag Regulations. Could you give the extract that references the Ulster Banner? Eckerslike (talk) 20:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The relevant section is "Prohibition on the flying of flags other than in accordance with the Regulations. 9. Except as provided by these Regulations, no flag shall be flown at any government building at any time." The flags that may be flown on various occasions are: the Union Flag, the Royal Standard, the European Flag, and the national flag of the country of a visiting head of state. Dmcq (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So there is no reference. An accurate description is not that the UB is prohibited but that it is not one of the flags mentioned as allowed to be flown from a Britsh government building. The relevance of this to the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland is therefore pure speculation by the editor. Eckerslike (talk) 23:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Plus it is allowed to be flown over local government buildings, and indeed it is done so by a number. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Eckerslike, flags not provided for by the regulations are prohibited under section 9 of the UK regulations ("Prohibition on the flying of flags..."). The Ulster Banner is not one of these provided for and is therefore prohibited. --Tóraí (talk) 07:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

You can read the PDF attached to [5] for the current government interpretation of the various flags regulations in the UK. That explicitly mentions all the other flags allowed around the UK like Saint Georges flag or flags of some counties - but no Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 08:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for providing that document. I have been searching for it without sucess. In regards to the flying of consituent country flags it states the following

"St George’s Day takes place on 23 April each year, and under the current guidance, the cross of St George may be flown from UK Government buildings ... The Union Flag takes precedence over all national flags and the cross of St George is not flown on any other days"

"St Andrew’s Day takes place on 30 November each year and under the current guidance, the cross of St Andrew may be flown from UK Government buildings on St Andrew’s Day"

"St David’s Day takes place on 1 March each year and under the current guidance, the Red Dragon may be flown from UK Government buildings on St David’s Day"

Thus the national flags of England, Scotland and Wales are prohibited from flying from govenment buildings unless it is a day celabrating the patron saint. Northern Ireland doesn't have a patron saint thus there is no day when the flag is flown. Should we remove the flags from the other constituent countries because of this prohibition? Eckerslike (talk) 17:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I say we should maintain consistency so if no flag here then no flag at those articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Northern Ireland's patron saint is Saint Patrick, hence St. Patrick's Cross. I don't know precisely how that is legislated alongside tradition, but St. Patrick is devoted to NI.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 18:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Neither Saint David's nor Saint Patrick's flags are counted as national flags in the regulations. The national flag of Wales is the Red Dragon, but the Welsh Assembly also flies Saint David's flag on his day. There is no national flag for Northern Ireland and no provision to even fly Saint Patrick's flag. Dmcq (talk) 23:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Nowhere does the guidance document say the flags of England, Scotland and Wales are prohibited from being flown on government buildings. In fact, it says the very opposite:

• "...the cross of St George may be flown from UK Government buildings..."
• "...the cross of St Andrew may be flown from UK Government buildings..."
• "...the Red Dragon may be flown from UK Government buildings..."

In contrast to this, UK law prohibits the Ulster Banner from being flown from UK Government buildings in Northern Ireland at any time. And the guidance document from the UK government on UK flags makes no mention of the Ulster Banner. --Tóraí (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Interestingly the flag of Saint Patrick is allowed to be flown on non-governmental buildings without requiring the consent of the local council. However there is no such provision for the Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

And I went to a wedding recently where they had a big flag with the family crests on a flagpole on the top of the building. So that even followed the regulations about not requiring consent except I'm sure it was more than two square meters in size :) Dmcq (talk) 11:42, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Evidence list in respect of the Ulster Banner

Please provide material in the following lists without argument so we can be objective about this

Third Party Sources

Please list any sources that explicitly state that the Ulster Banner is de facto the flag of Northern Ireland

• Britannica article on "Flag of Northern Ireland": "... when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner." This is consistent with our article on Flag of Northern Ireland.
  • The Britannica article on Northern Ireland does not show any flag for Northern Ireland. The Britannica's articles on England and Scotland do show their respective flags.

• Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: "The flag of the Northern Irish, the unofficial flag of the pronvice, is a white field divided by a centered red cross of St. George, bearing a centered six pointed star with a red hand below a gold crown".
• News Letter "Before his speech accepting victory, Mr Wilson’s party colleagues cheered and waved a flag above his head; apparently a kind of medley of the Northern Irish flag, the Union Flag, and others."
• Belfast Telegraph " Someone in Chicago even managed to conjure up a Northern Ireland flag to enshroud McIlroy."
• Trade Marks Act 1994 - Lists "the flag of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man" under specially protected emblems. Eckerslike (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Dorling Kindersley
• A possible one though not sure if it meets RS
• Scan of quoted pages Smith, Whitney, Flags and Arms Across The World, p226 - Features the flags of the UK subdivisions including the Ulster Flag to represent Northern Ireland
• Scan of quoted pages Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. "Presented here are the flags of the four parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)... England, National Flag, The red cross of St George on a white field... a white saltire of St Andrew has been the Scottish national symbol (since the 15th century on a blue field)... Wales, National Flag, The red dragon (Y Ddraig Goch)... white and green were the livery colours of the Welsh Prince LLewellyn... Northern Ireland, National Flag, The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster." Miles Creagh (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
• Northern Ireland Foundation - Another relatively commonly used flag is the Northern Ireland flag, also referred to as the Ulster Banner.. It then goes into its official status and all but regardless calls it commonly used as well as calls it the Northern Ireland flag. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Uses

Please list examples of its use in representational situations

• FIFA Northern Ireland
• UEFA Northern Ireland
• Commonwealth Games Northern Ireland
• Miss World Northern Ireland
• Flown on horseback alongside the flags of England, Scotland and Wales at the Queen's official 90th birthday celebrations on 15th May 2016 (Source please for the above)
• PGA Tour
• INF
• FIVB

Deprecation

Please list examples where flag is deprecated or not used where use would otherwise be expected.

• [6] Lord Kilclooney advocates the creation of a new flag for Northern Ireland.
• [7] The Queen used St Patrick's Saltire in her Diamond Jubilee Pageant.
• [8] Arlene Foster says she would be happy to use the Saint Patrick's Cross.

Prohibitions

• The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 prohibits the flying of the Ulster Banner from Government Buildings in Northern Ireland.

Parliamentary debates

• 11/12/2012 Lord Kilclooney: "....In the United Kingdom, the union flag is the flag of Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland; but Scotland, Wales and England also have their own local flags. Would it not be a good idea, given that flags are a divisive issue in Northern Ireland, to put our minds together to get a flag—as well as the union jack—to which Roman Catholics and Protestants, unionists and nationalists, and anyone can give joint loyalty? So far, we have no Northern Ireland flag. Is it not time we started to design a flag that would appeal to everyone?"

• 21/11/2000 David Trimble: "Interestingly, in 1922, when the Royal Ulster Constabulary was being formed, the then Unionist Government proposed that there be a new badge, which would have been, one might even say, unambiguously Unionist, as it would have embodied what we call the Northern Ireland flag surmounted with the crown."

Comments on the evidence list or third party sources

• Note: The Flag Regulations 2000 make no reference to the Ulster Banner. The relevance is thus the interpretation of the editor. Eckerslike (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

"Except as provided by these Regulations, no flag shall be flown at any government building at any time." (source) As you say, the regulations make no reference to the Ulster Banner and so under UK law it is prohibited from being flown at any government buildings at any time in Northern Ireland. --Tóraí (talk) 22:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• I still don't see any third party source which says the banner is the def facto flag of Northern Ireland. I see examples of use only ----Snowded ^TALK 17:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Both the first two sources refer to it as the Flag of Northern Ireland Eckerslike (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Not really. The Brittanica does not use it in the article on Northern Ireland, and says it is unofficial in the article on the Flag (which is the reference). The second article says it is the flag of the Northern Irish, and lists other flags in the same paragraph .... ----Snowded ^TALK 18:30, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Except on the second source, the other flags mentioned are not referred to as the Northern Irish flag, only the Ulster Banner is called as such. It says the Ulster Banner is the flag of the Northern Irish and later goes on to talk about the Orange Order as the largest organisation in NI. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:41, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The publication is "Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations" not state or county, and it talks about the "Northern Irish" not "Northern Ireland". Dmcq (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It refers to it as the "unofficial flag of the province" as well. Eckerslike (talk) 20:21, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It does, which is not the same thing as de-facto. The source is a book by an independent researcher which doesn't appear to have any institutional backing but its citations are OK. so in so far as it goes it is useful. However it identifies other flags in use and also places it in the context of the Troubles. In the case of Wales and England there are no competing flags, nor any substantive dispute whereas here there is. To me that says there is support to say that it has been used as an unofficial flag in the body of the article, linked to the Flags order (which says only Union Jack and conspicuously does not allow for the Ulster Banner) but not to place it in the information box. ----Snowded ^TALK 20:44, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

They are not competing in the claim of being the national flag. The Orange order one is just listed as the flag of the largest organisation in NI with no disclaimer as to if this is a government organisation or not; thus the source is not claiming the OO flag is the flag of NI, just that it is that of its largest organisaton by membership. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:15, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Expect the goal posts of what's acceptable to be continually moved as has been happening. Unofficial is as good as de facto especially if it proves common usage and the fact if it was official we wouldn't need sources for de facto. At the end of the day whilst consensus is what is needed it does not need to be universal and if there are onlymone or two left opposing then even the biggest objector can ultimately be ignored at the end of the day if they are being unreasonable. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:15, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Lets focus on the evidence shall we? Once we have that and we AGREE the terms of an RfC we can resolve it, you're commentary on the motivations of other editors is not helpful (or accurate) Mabuska. We can leave it for a few days to see what else is posted by way of evidence and commentary. I think we then need to bring in a neutral Admin to manage agreement on the language of the RfC. ----Snowded ^TALK 06:03, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Plenty of references saying the Ulster Banner is the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland above, along with widespread evidence of its use as such. But support bringing in neutral admin. — Jon C.^ॐ 10:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Snowded: no offence but your personal history on this topic over the years and your highly biased and partisan views on it deny you the right of acting as the self-appointed adjudicator of what is valid or not source wise. After all you called it a sectarian flag (highly dubious, shall we post the picture of Catholic Rory McIlroy draped it in and smiling again?) despite providing no evidence at all other than your own personal viewpoint. In asking for a source for the Queens birthday pageant despite having watched the clip before (as evident by your comments Talk:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland/Archive_3#Video_as_source here) shows a high amount of disingenuity. These are all valid concerns and deny you of your pretense of non-bias on this issue. If anything the Reliable Sources Noticeboard should be asked to debate whether the above are valid or not, not you. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Mabuska:Try not to make false accusations. I didn't ask for a source someone else did. Having said that my having seen it before would not constitute a source anyway. Feel free to either apologise or delete the accusation and this comment if you can't manage that ----Snowded ^TALK 18:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There are many additional sources relevant to this discussion in the prior discussion to be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom#In_support_of_the_flags_of_England.2C_Northern_Ireland.2C_Scotland_and_Wales_to_all_be_displayed_together

Personally, I find two reliable source(reference to Whitney Smith & Znamierowski listed above), authored by preeminent vexillologists, to be quite persuasive:

Miles Creagh (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Miles. Both Smith and Znamierowski are respected vexillologists and therefore reliable sources. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Another one to add to the list of precedents elsewhere on Wikipedia: Réunion, whose official flag is that of France. The unofficial Lö Mahavéli, which is flown by several city councils (as in NI), is shown as the flag of the territory in the absence of an official unique one. — Jon C.^ॐ 12:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Questions and comments

This is a good article. It is well structured and it's informative. I made some improvements and I have a few comments.

1. "In the late 1960s, conflict between state forces and chiefly Protestant unionists on the one hand, and chiefly Catholic nationalists on the other, erupted into three decades of violence known as the Troubles, which claimed over 3,500 lives and caused over 50,000 casualties."

"The Troubles, which started in the late 1960s, consisted of about thirty years of recurring acts of intense violence during which 3,254 people were killed with over 50,000 casualties."

It's not clear to me what "3,500 lives"/"3,254 people" and "50,000 casualties" mean. Aren't claimed lives, killed people and casualties the same thing? There must be some difference I cannot understand.

2. "Following the victory of 1691 ...."

What victory is it? The sentence is not clear. It should be more direct.

3. "While the majority of disenfranchised electors were Protestant, but Catholics were over-represented since they were poorer and had more adults still living in the family home."

This sentence is hanging and it should be fixed.

4. "In 2007, 36% of the population defined themselves as unionist, 24% as nationalist and 40% defined themselves as neither."

Is this in the context of the people living in the 6 counties?

5. "Although some news bulletins since the 1990s have opted to avoid all contentious terms and use the official name, Northern Ireland, the term "the North" remains commonly used by broadcast media in the Republic."

Is the last word referring to the Republic of Ireland?

6. " triple the amount there were in 2001."

What is that "triple" referring to? It sounds ambiguous.

ICE77 (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Religion section

I've reverted an edit which changed:

In the 2011 census, 41.5% of the population identified as belonging to Protestant or other non-Roman Catholic Christian denominations. The biggest of these denominations were the Presbyterian Church (19%), the Church of Ireland (14%) and the Methodist Church (3%).

to:

At the 2011 census, 41.5% of the population identified as Protestant, the biggest denominations being the Presbyterian Church (19%), the Church of Ireland (14%) and the Methodist Church (3%).

The 5.8% that identified as "Christian, other" will be mostly of protestant derivation but also includes non-RC denominations that are not of protestant origin. Obvious examples are Eastern Orthodox and Assyrian Churches that split from the Catholic Church long before the Reformation. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:05, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Good point. My latest edit should have dealt with it. Haldraper (talk) 12:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Wildlife

There is no section on wildlife. Should it be added? Any thoughts?Osborne 17:06, 10 September 2017 (UTC) It has been started now!Osborne 19:46, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The article on the island of Ireland has an entry on flora and fauna and there's also a separate article Fauna of Ireland. I don't think an entry is needed under the constituent countries - they are more political articles and the wildlife doesn't seem to have any great respect for the border. Dmcq (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes I'd move that info you put in to the Ireland or Fauna articles. At the most I'd put a very minimal section here which just refers to them. Dmcq (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Larne Gun Running and links to the Kaiser in 1913-1914

Can someone add in a section on the Larne Gun Running Episode, and expand on the links between the German Kaiser and Unionist Community? 87.224.32.138 (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Why? 1) it's too specific for a general article like this one and 2) it's from before Northern Ireland existed so not in the article's scope from a time perspective. Canterbury Tail talk 15:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2018

Change Secretary of State to Karen Bradley. 94.173.179.46 (talk) 20:05, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Done. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit proposal

In the Symbols section, a paragraph currently reads:

The United Kingdom national anthem of "God Save the Queen" is often played at state events in Northern Ireland. At the Commonwealth Games and some other sporting events, the Northern Ireland team uses the Ulster Banner as its flag—notwithstanding its lack of official status—and the Londonderry Air (usually set to lyrics as Danny Boy), which also has no official status, as its national anthem. The national football team also uses the Ulster Banner as its flag but uses "God Save The Queen" as its anthem. Major Gaelic Athletic Association matches are opened by the Irish national anthem, "Amhrán na bhFiann (The Soldier's Song)", which is also used by most other all-Ireland sporting organisations. Since 1995, the Ireland rugby union team has used a specially commissioned song, "Ireland's Call" as the team's anthem. The Irish national anthem is also played at Dublin home matches, being the anthem of the host country.

My changes are proposed below (in bold):

The United Kingdom national anthem of "God Save the Queen" is often played at state events in Northern Ireland. At the Commonwealth Games and some other sporting events, the Northern Ireland team uses the flag of Northern Ireland as its flag—notwithstanding its lack of official status—and the Londonderry Air (usually set to lyrics as Danny Boy), which also has no official status, as its national anthem. This is in common with the unofficial status of the flags of England and Scotland for those respective countries and with the unofficial statuses of the anthems 'Jerusalem', 'Land of Hope and Glory' for England; "Scotland the Brave", "Flower of Scotland", and "Scots Wha Hae" for Scotland; and 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' for Wales. The Walsh dragon flag and the Union Jack are the only two flags that have any 'official status' in the UK, and 'God Save the Queen' is the only official national anthem. The national football team also uses the flag of Northern Ireland but uses "God Save The Queen" as its anthem. Major Gaelic Athletic Association matches are opened by the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland, "Amhrán na bhFiann (The Soldier's Song)", which is also used by most other all-Ireland sporting organisations. Since 1995, the Ireland rugby union team has used a specially commissioned song, "Ireland's Call" as the team's anthem. The national anthem of the Republic of Ireland is also played at Dublin home matches, being the anthem of the host country.

Rationale: Perspective and context. There is no "official status" for any of the sub-national flags except for the Welsh one, which exists in legislation. The Scottish flag may also have some official status, as it was debated in the Scottish Assembly back in 2000 or so. None of the national anthems have any "official status" either. The way the paragraph read before, seemed to be suggesting that Northern Ireland was somehow unique in this context. It isn't.

Also, I propose a change to the name of the flag of Northern Ireland. It is really only correctly and technically called the Ulster Banner, so far as I'm aware, when it forms part of the Coat of Arms of Northern Ireland. The common name for the flag is the "flag of Northern Ireland", and often "the Northern Irish flag". You may call it a "fleg" if you like! (bad humour!)

I think we need a citation with regard to the statement "most other all-Ireland sporting organisations". I'm not convinced there are that many of them, really. We could probably be specific about them. Golf, for example, is organised on an all-island basis, right? With provincial regional bodies? But international golf has people represent Northern Ireland (and Scotland, England and Wales). Is there any national anthem played at these games? Hockey seems to use a special flag - a shield of the four provinces. Do they play national anthems, and is it specifically the anthem of the Republic if they do? In Judo, the Irish Judo Association seems to organise on an island-wide basis, given that there are a handful of affiliated clubs in Northern Ireland. Meanwhile, the Northern Ireland Judo Federation has many more clubs and Northern Ireland competes in the Commonwealth Games. The NIJF is subsidiary to the British Judo Association. Boxing seems even more complex, and also competes in the Commonwealth Games.

Finally, it will be hard for those who are not aware of a border on the island of Ireland to differentiate between the "Irish anthem" and the other names and nouns involved. I think we should disambiguate the specific political jurisdiction of the Republic to keep the article from being potentially confusing to English speaking non-locals and people whose first language isn't English. --75.177.79.101 (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree it should refer to the Republic when talking about its anthem rather than just saying Irish. Foreigners might get confused otherwise. But I think on the same basis it should refer to the Ulster Banner rather than the Flag of Northern Ireland, that is too confusing too since officially it has no flag. Also there's no need to mention all the songs for other countries of the UK or go into a long explanation. By the way the common name policy is for the title of articles, not for every reference. The stupid business about referring to Derry everywhere rather than just in its article is because of an admin decision over the battles over it, see WP:IMOS. Dmcq (talk) 16:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Can I just point out that England has no "official" flag either. So any argument about Northern Ireland not having a flag is equally valid with regard to the flag of England. The de facto civic flag of Northern Ireland is the flag of Northern Ireland or, as some people possibly incorrectly refer to it, the Ulster Banner. Likewise, the de facto civic flag of England is the flag of England, or St George's Cross.

With regard to Derry versus Londonderry, I am given to believe that plenty of Protestants and unionists from the area call it Derry. It's really a shortening of the full name, in many peoples' eyes. Same with "Carrick" for Carrickfergus. With both names, there are several other towns that have either "Carrick" or "Derry" in them. Londonderry and Carrickfergus are the better known settlements though.

As we seem to have come to the same conclusion at least about being less ambiguous about the Republic, can somebody go ahead and make that change? --75.177.79.101 (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Have put in Republic of Ireland. By the way St George's Cross is recognized as the national flag of England, see [9]. Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Graphics in the Demographics section

The two graphics at the top of this section both cover religion, yet the colour coding is wildly different. Could there not be some changes made to the first one so that it is easy for the reader to grasp information presented in the second? The first would then become of great use as a key to the colour coding of the map graphic. At the moment, the key to the map graphic colour coding is tiny. Boscaswell talk 16:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2018

Fix this blatant typo. Instead of (october1993) it should be (October 1693). the treaty of limerick was not signed in the era of bill clinton!

1693, however, Pope Innocent XII recognised James as continuing King of Great Britain and Ireland in place of William, after reconciliation with Louis. In 1695, and contrary to the terms of the Treaty of Limerick (October 1993), a series of penal laws were passed by the Anglican ruling class in Ireland in intense anger at the Pope's recognition of James over William, which was felt to be a betrayal. The intention of the laws was to materially disadvantage the Catholic community and, to a lesser extent, the Presbyterian community. In the context of open institutional discrimination, the 18th century saw secret, militant societies develop in communities in the region and act on sectarian tensions in violent attacks. T Misterguitar919 (talk) 03:03, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done DannyS712 (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Changed to 1691 per the article at Treaty of Limerick and some other quick sources found online. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 03:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2018

Add the former flag of Northern Ireland still used unofficially today 2A02:C7F:147E:4F00:3076:E0B0:BE10:C797 (talk) 14:34, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Has been discussed before = please check that out -----Snowded ^TALK 14:43, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Like Snowded points out, this was discussed before. The result? Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag of its own (not since 1972) & so shouldn't have one in its box. GoodDay (talk) 14:54, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Although the former flag was removed from the info box, the note (a) associated with it was left in place, and appears at the bottom of the box without a reverse link. Since the information summarized in this note is presented more clearly in the "Culture/Symbols" section, the note should probably be (have been?) deleted. Kelseymh (talk) 20:45, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2019

Ulster Scotts is not a language, it's a glorified accent so it needs to be changed to just Irish (Gaelic) and English. Yehaw69 (talk) 19:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, the Ulster Scots article can be found at Ulster Scots dialects and not this article. Recognised as part of the Good Friday Agreement so feel free to bring it up on those articles and to the governments of the UK and Ireland. Thanks. Canterbury Tail talk 19:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I believe the previous response is a complete on and have marked the request as answered and no change will be made to the article. Dmcq (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

No legal effect

There's a bit of argument about someone saying the Belfast Agreement has no legal effect on citizenship. The link put in was wrong, I believe they meant [10]. However as far as I an make out they are misunderstanding what 'no legal effect' means i that document. If something meant that no change in the law was needed because of the Belfast Agreementthen they said it had no legal effect. In this case RoI already implemented everything needed and as far as British citizens are concerned if they don't get a passport that's their choice. That is entirely different from saying it can have no effect - if one or other country tried to change the law then the change might be invalidated by the Belfast Agreement. For instance if a law was passed so people no longer had a choice that would be in direct violation. Dmcq (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

For reference, I only removed it because it as a sentence fragment that made no contextual sense, and the reference didn't work. Canterbury Tail talk 12:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I though it was clear that the passage quoted immediatly prior has no legal effect. Dcmq is wrong in their interpretation of what "no leagal effect" means. Not least because UK and ROI government don't allow birthright citizenship (that is citizenship for anyone born on the island regardless of the status of their parents). There are multiple references to this passage but perhaps the clearest is on page 128 where it states " ‘recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland [but see Annex 2 to the BIA] to identify themselvesand be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose,’. This text – even in the absence of Annex 2 – can have no legal effect, not even in international law." -- Eckerslike (talk) 18:50, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

What on earth effect would you think it might have on international law? Of course it has 'no legal effect'. And by the way the citizenship laws in Britain are well known to have a number of logical inconsistencies and that has no effect internationally. A country would have to implement its own non--international laws to distinguish people on something other than the passports if for instance Bolivia wanted to distinguish between Irish passports for people from Northern Ireland and people from RoI. Dmcq (talk) 22:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

You would have to ask the author of the legal analysis what effect it might have on international law it might have. I just quoted from him. -- Eckerslike (talk) 00:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

He said in the document it has no legal effect and I agree with that. You seem to be trying to say that means more than it says, that one could remove the stuff and that would have no legal implications in any possible future. Dmcq (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Or to put it another way "can have no legal effect" (p128). You clearly haven't read the paragraph that I initially quoted from (p130) as it makes it blatently clear that the lack of legal effect is due to the subjectivity of the phrase. -- Eckerslike (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I have read it and I have come to quite a different conclusion from you. I think we'd need someone versed in legal jargon to decide. Which is a bit much as we have a legal expert here and they clearly can't express themselves in a satisfactory way for normal people. Dmcq (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I just had a look for other stuff by him and came across a rather silly thing about Brexit and a better reasoned one about why Ulster Scots should be in any language law rather than just Irish. I think lawyers are very liable to interpret things they way they feel. You can see this in America the way the Supreme Court judges' decisions are easily predictable based on whether they are Republicans or Democrats. I don't know where one would get someone who wasn't involved to spend their valuable time as a lawyer on this. What he says is true enough in law terms I think - but it has too much wiggle room and space for misinterpretation. 00:16, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Could you explain to me the difference between the statements "one could remove the stuff and that would have no legal implications in any possible future" and "cannot be provided for legally, in international or municipal law"? -- Eckerslike (talk) 22:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Patriarchalic culture ?

When i stumbled over this senctence: ... Prominent artists and sportspeople from Northern Ireland include Van Morrison, Rory McIlroy, Joey Dunlop, Wayne McCullough and George Best. Some people from Northern Ireland prefer to identify as Irish (e.g., poet Seamus Heaney and actor Liam Neeson) while others prefer to identify as British (e.g. actor Sir Kenneth Branagh). ... i wondered if there are only men living in Northern Ireland. Actually i could not find any woman mentioned at all in the full article. Why is that ?? -- cheers, rosetta 93.214.248.208 (talk) 01:32, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a rather scrappy and not well researched article Women in Northern Ireland. Perhaps you could add to that or put some sources on the talk page if you don't feel confident enough for that. Dmcq (talk) 00:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Statement contradicted by reference

This quote: The first Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Seamus Mallon, was criticised by unionist politicians for calling the region the "North of Ireland" while Sinn Féin has been criticised in a Dublin newspaper for referring to the "Six Counties".[80]

is contradicted by the reference, in which a Dublin paper seems to approve that Mallon actually used the term "Northern Ireland" and does not comment negatively on the normal usage. Can someone who follows things more closely than me please correct this. Chris55 (talk) 22:42, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Algae?

Do we really need the paragraph on the number of species of algae found on the coast of Nortern Ireland? To me it looks absolutely silly. I think it should be removed as having no value for better understanding of any aspect of the rest of the article.

Poihths (talk) 02:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This article is about the political entity. Natural history and similar information belongs at the island article (Ireland). I don't know of any species that stops at the border, whereas there some species that are found in Ireland but not Great Britain and vice versa (shamrock and snakes being the classical examples). --Red King (talk) 10:13, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree too that it should be removed. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Celebrities in the lead dividing two ways but earlier paragraph saying 3 common ways of primary self-identity exist

Who writes this drivel? Surely it is morally wrong to list celebrities and citing, with aplomb, that they split two ways, having earlier said there are at least three ways most people living in Northern Ireland tend to foremost identify themselves with. If you read the last paragraph slowly it actually seems to promote a simple dichotomy which has to be unhelpful to any of those seeing themselves more in the Northern Irish community than any other.- Adam37 Talk 15:15, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This material was just divisive POV (and per WP:LEAD, should never have been there anyway since it did not summarise a major topic in the body), so I have deleted it. I also deleted (from Culture) the wild generalisation that Catholics choose Irish cultural tradition and Protestants choose British (English, Scots, Welsh) traditions. It will come as surprise to no-one that this claim was unsourced. As usual, per WP:BRD, anyone who disagrees is invited to discuss the topic here. --Red King (talk) 10:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

You have my support in all of your deletions here today. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2020

The flag is missing on top of the page. All other European countries have their flag on top of the page. 143.179.39.209 (talk) 12:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Northern Ireland doesn't have its own flag. See Flag of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland flags issue. --Red King (talk) 14:20, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Use of population clock

Although this article has not been updated for a few days, it is citing the population clock on the NISRA home page (according to that the population is 1,900,880 at the time of typing). However as the Find out more link on the page says The population is for the displayed date and time and assumes constant population change throughout the year. It is not intended to be an exact count, as it's assumed deaths, births, immigration and emigration. Is there a 2011 census figure we can use instead, if that's thought to be preferable? FDW777 (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I would prefer actual census figures over ones that are, realistically, guesses. Canterbury Tail talk 21:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

UK Prime Minister - infobox

Has anyone thought about adding the British Prime Minister to the Infobox below Parliament of the UK? I just find it strange that it’s not there already! The office is the head of the central government of a sovereign state that Northern Ireland is currently part of, so why not add it? What’s everyone views on this? Ciaran.london (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

No. I wouldn't add it, for the same reason I wouldn't add the Canadian prime minister to the Alberta infobox. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

National symbols

Why is there no flag or anthem like there is for other constituent countries of the UK. I know this is considered a controversial subject but I think it could be possible to have the symbols here be the same as the Northern Irish sports teams. 20th anniversary (talk) 14:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Northern Ireland does not have an official flag or anthem. FDW777 (talk) 14:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

But Northern Ireland shares its symbols with the UK as a whole, as well as having unofficial symbols, mostly for sports where Northern Ireland competes by its self. 20th anniversary (talk) 14:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Sports teams may do yes, but none of them represent Northern Ireland officially as a constituent country. The closest Northern Ireland has is the Union Flag, but it doesn't represent Northern Ireland but the United Kingdom. NI simply doesn't have an official flag for itself. See talk page archives. Canterbury Tail talk 14:22, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Can someone point me to the piece of legislation that created St. George's cross as the official flag of England? -- Eckerslike (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Good luck trying to add the Union Flag to this page. lmao. --2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:FD0E:5236:34AB:E54B (talk) 18:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Demographics

@Mutt Lunker: you have reverted my edit claiming "Not the same thing", that's precisely why the clarification was needed.

The sentence currently reads In 2011, 88.8% of the population were born in Northern Ireland, with 4.5% born in Britain, and 2.9% born in the Republic of Ireland. 4.3% were born elsewhere. Since Britain is generally taken to mean the United Kingdom, it is not correct. The 4.5% clearly refers to people born in Great Britain, since the 88.8% of the population born in Northern Ireland were also born in Britain. FDW777 (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :"elsewhere in Britain/the UK" then, since some may have been born on Portsea, Anglesey, Benbecula, the Isle of Wight, Shetland. I notice that the ref doesn't appear to support this statistic though, possibly the others too. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The reference is the one at the end of sentence before, the census one. It's supporting the entire section. The BBC ref is only supporting the triple amount of non-UK/ROI residents. Canterbury Tail talk 17:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

And the source that this is being based on says England, Scotland and Wales, which equates to Great Britain. Britain is ambiguous so Great Britain is correct for what the source is telling us. We could also say elsewhere in the United Kingdom if we really wanted. Canterbury Tail talk 16:43, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

As of now the article reads: "Most are from Eastern Europe and Lithuania and Latvia."

This makes no sense since both Lithuania and Latvia are in Eastern Europe. Demography of Northern Ireland#Place of birth claims most immigrants are from Poland. So can the sentence be changed to: "Most are from Eastern Europe (Poland, Lithuania and Latvia)."

Thanks. 2001:569:7DAC:A800:155B:E749:4D7F:653E (talk) 16:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I've tidied that section up a little. Canterbury Tail talk 16:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

For those interested the latest population estimates (xls, 1.2MB) (Tables 1.1 and 1.4) show there are:

• 45,000 Eastern Europeans:
  • 38,000 EU-8:
    • 20,000 Poland
    • 13,000 Lithunia
    • 6,000 the other 6 countries combined
  • 6,000 EU-2
  • 1,000 other EU
• 44,000 from outside EU (half of them from Asia)
• 33,000 from Ireland
• 12,000 from Western European EU countries (EU-14)

207.81.201.171 (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Cities sub-section

I took the liberty of moving this to what I felt was a more appropriate section earlier. It still causes lots of white space in the article, due to the width of the table and the photographs in the article. I tried fiddling about with some of the variables to fix the problem, but I couldn't get it to work so perhaps someone with more knowledge of tables might be able to do something with it please? FDW777 (talk) 22:22, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that the cities table isn't a table, it's misusing the Infobox template and infoboxes auto align to the right. I've converted it. Now we have an issue with the way the images are presenting. Canterbury Tail talk 22:57, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I think I've fixed the image issue, depending on whether we considered the problem to be the same or not. There's probably an argument to be made about whether those thumbnails belong in the table anyway. FDW777 (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I think there was two problems. 1) the infobox style and 2) the Clear that you noticed that kept the bottom of the section free. As for the images, I don't think we need them in there, especially since they appear to be cherry picked rather than obvious. I.e. Newry as the 4th image and not Craigavon? Canterbury Tail talk 23:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Well I'm not entirely sure about the contents of the table anyway, since we're dealing with towns and cities it seems odd to go with the Craigavon Urban Area rather than the individual towns. FDW777 (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Very good point. Though it is normal for country articles to list the largest cities/towns. Maybe another way? Canterbury Tail talk 23:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

And I could be wrong on the Infobox setting on the table as well, it may just have been the Clear that was causing the issue. Wales and Scotland use the same template. Canterbury Tail talk 23:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't mind the largest being listed, it just seems odd to use the Craigavon Urban Area when we're not using the Derry Urban Area or the Belfast metropolitan area. I think it's simplest just to use the biggest cities and towns (even though that currently results in Armagh being excluded, although it is mentioned as being a city elsewhere) rather than a random use of urban and/or metropolitan areas.

Regarding "clear", that was in the article already and I did try and remove it when I moved the section. Only when previewing it the new "Cities" sub-section was completely blank, and the table appeared right at the top of the "Demographics" section straight after the word "The" and leaving the rest of the sentence underneath the table. I assume that was some glitch that was caused by an infobox being used, and the change of coding subsequently allowed the removal of "clear" without breaking the article. FDW777 (talk) 23:32, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

"Citizenship and identity" section

Several studies and surveys carried out between 1971 and 2006 have indicated that, in general, most Protestants in Northern Ireland see themselves primarily as British, whereas a majority of Roman Catholics regard themselves primarily as Irish followed by a whole lot of references.

Would anyone object if this is simplified to something like In general, most Protestants in Northern Ireland see themselves primarily as British, whereas a majority of Roman Catholics regard themselves primarily as Irish and removal of a lot of redundant references? Has anything changed since 2006? I don't think so. FDW777 (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I see no problem with keeping the references, redundant or not. It's something that could potentially be considered controversial enough that having multiple references would be encouraged least we have someone come through and think it's not something that can be measured and is just conjecture. I'd like to see if we have something in the last 15 years though. Canterbury Tail talk 01:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it is controversial though, and although I haven't checked all the surveys cited I doubt it's something that's significantly changed. The wish to see Irish reunification is closely linked, and this may tend to fluctuate based on things like the collapse of the Irish economy. But I honestly don't believe a resident of Northern Ireland who considered themself Irish would turn round and say "Uh-oh, the Irish economy has collapsed. I consider myself British now". FDW777 (talk) 21:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the last point, but I'm actually curious as to how many protestants and British are switching to be Northern Irish or Irish now. My gut tells me it's increased over the last while, especially since the Brexit vote. Canterbury Tail talk 22:19, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Well the section goes on to state A 2008 survey found that 57% of Protestants described themselves as British, while 32% identified as Northern Irish, 6% as Ulster and 4% as Irish. Compared to a similar survey carried out in 1998, this shows a fall in the percentage of Protestants identifying as British and Ulster and a rise in those identifying as Northern Irish. The 2008 survey found that 61% of Catholics described themselves as Irish, with 25% identifying as Northern Irish, 8% as British and 1% as Ulster. These figures were largely unchanged from the 1998 results. People of Northern Ireland details the 2011 census results as finding a majority in each community still identifying as Irish or British respectively. There's also this BBC article from 2018, and the full results are here (page 15), with 82.9% of Protestants identifying as British (it was possible to select more than one identity), and 96.3% of Catholics as Irish. Northern Irish was also popular for Protestants with 81.8%, against a less popular 27.3% for Catholics. So I'm not seeing any evidence that things have changed since 2006, and I believe including wording such as that right at the start risks suggesting that things have changed. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I believe my alternate wording is better, and obviously we could include the 2018 survey as well. FDW777 (talk) 12:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

table in Citizenship and identity section

am I the only one for whom the table in Citizenship and identity section makes no sense at all? I understand nothing of it, percentages do not add up to 100% either in rows or in columns and I am not all sure what the numbers stand for. Maybe (and probably) there is some logic behind this table, but in this case it must come with some info on how to read the figures. rgds, --89.64.68.19 (talk) 12:43, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The figures are from the census where you can select all that apply, which is why they add up to more than 100%. So someone may identify as British or Irish and Nothern Irish in terms of citizenship, or may now be non religous but still idenitify as the religion they were raised with for cultural reasons. Sarahj2107 (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Would it be possible for someone to provide the correct citation for that please? It currently is http://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/Download/Census%202011_Winzip/2011/DC2106NI%20(a).ZIP However, as the NISRA site shows, DC2106NI(a) is actually National Identity (Classification 2) by Age by Sex, which is confirmed by downloading the zip file. FDW777 (talk) 15:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I've replaced the reference. Sarahj2107 (talk) 07:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, but it's still in need of a further citation for the rows. For example while the 48.41% indentifing as British part of row is covered on page 15, neither than nor page 19 break that down by religion (that 12.9% of Catholics identify as British, 81.6% of Protestants identify as British etc). FDW777 (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

The 'Notes' tab should be removed

In my opinion, the 'Notes' tab should be removed if no notes can be added to it as in my opinion it is pointless having an empty tab within the article. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2021

Factual error in paragraph:

Northern Ireland was created in 1921, when Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, creating a devolved government for the six northeastern counties. The majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom.[15

Census 1911 and 1926 both show a significant majority of catholics in NI over any other single Religious Profession and no official record of Unionism/Nationalism. The claim that NI was ‘majority unionist’ is opinion only and should be removed. Church of Ireland Profession cannot be automatically assumed as either.

94.10.118.71 (talk) 08:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Um those very clearly show that Roman Catholic numbers are outweighed by the Protestant numbers. The Protestant numbers are just split into multiple groups, but combined they far exceed the Roman Catholic numbers. Not that religion is a pure basis for going one way or another on this issue. Canterbury Tail talk 11:46, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree, the only reference given is to the Ulster Unionist Party, not 'unreliable' but clearly biased toward this statement; I think "The majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom." is not fact-based. JeffUK (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Citizenship and Identity § Religious Affiliation table makes no sense and is unsupported by reference

Page 19 is the only relevant one in the reference and doesn't have anything that could make sense of the majority none column. Lycurgus (talk) 20:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

didn see the preexisting thread above. It looks like because the subject is contentious, although the current content is incoherent, nobody wants to just fix it and deal with any stuff. Lycurgus (talk) 20:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit requests 8/10/21

1) Subsection 8.5 ("Rugby League") should be moved to become a sub-subsection of Section 8.1 ("Field Sports")

2) Subsection 8.7 ("Professional Wrestling") probably doesn't belong under "Sports" 90.241.10.18 (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Flag and Coat of Arms

How come there is no flag and coat of arms on the information panel? England, Wales and Scotland all have these so I don’t see why Northern Ireland should be any different. DRYT.Motorsport (talk) 22:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It does not have a flag. FDW777 (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Is the Ulster Banner not official? DRYT.Motorsport (talk) 10:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It does not have a flag. FDW777 (talk) 11:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Change "The region that is now Northern Ireland was long inhabited by native Gaels who were Irish-speaking and Catholic" To "The region was inhabited by the native Irish who were Irish-speaking and Catholic"

Geals is a wide term for people of different but related cultures, the Geals of Scotland are a mixture of different people, most of which aren't Geals. The natives of Ulster the Irish were and are distinct from the Scottish, but not in any significant way from the other people of Ireland. So the correct label for the native peoples of that region should be applied, saying they're Geals is misleading. 93.107.25.30 (talk) 06:11, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Why no demonym field in the infobox?

The infoboxes in the articles for the other three constituent countries have the demonym field, is there a reason this article's infobox does not? UnitedStatesian (talk) 07:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Hearing no response, I added them. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Because the consensus from previous conversations on these talk pages was to remove it. However the last discussion was about 9 years ago, so the consensus can change. Canterbury Tail talk 14:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

"Ulster (occupied)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ulster (occupied) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 5#Ulster (occupied) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Balkovec (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2022

86.40.141.96 (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2022 (UTC) To change the country's population to 1,903,100 from the census 2021

References

Status of Northern Ireland is officially "province" according to ISO but also,"Part" of the UK and "country"

• "Part of the United Kingdom", according to the Good Friday Agreement.
• "Part of the UK" according to the Northern Ireland government website.
• "Province" according to the UK government Toponymic guidelines.
• "Province" according to ISO country codes.

• Found one reference to "country" also.

This needs to be updated on this page according to these current (non-archived)and official sources. Will update citations in the article but will not make major change to definition.Titus Gold (talk) 01:58, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The intro shouldn't not be changed, without a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Was only a minor change but fair enough. Consensus to remove the term "region" because it doesn't seem to be used officially at all (but obviously keep terms province and country) and replace the citations with  ? Titus Gold (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Leave 'province' out of the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 02:12, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose any change to the stable status quo. RWB2020 (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay ok will leave out of infobox. Titus Gold (talk) 12:29, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Constituent unit?

Why do we have "constituent unit" in the infobox? We don't have it in the infoboxes at the England, Wales & Scotland pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Religion

It would be a good idea to add the line 'When Northern Ireland was created, it had a Protestant majority of approximately two-to-one, unlike the Republic of Ireland, where Catholics were in the majority.' from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Northern_Ireland article at the very start of the religion section to provide more context for the recent census result. 80.44.13.37 (talk) 09:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC) 80.44.13.37 (talk) 09:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Goldsztajn (talk) 12:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

NI most commonly referred to as country

Northern Ireland is most commonly referred to as a country of the United Kingdom, even by the officials in Westminster. Should we change the introduction of Northern Ireland to country that is part of the United Kingdom but alternatively described as a province or region"? I feel like it would be more appropriate as it is the most commonly referred. MicroSupporter (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Why does it matter? Northern Ireland is a subdivision of the United Kingdom, just like Wales, Scotland and England. It does not have significantly less privileges. The word country in the British sense here does not mean an independent or sovereign state, but only a certain kind of region. The US calls them states, Germany calls them Land/Länder (the word is the same in German for country/countries. So Bavaria is a Land. Kanada ist ein Land).

In official parlance, it is usually referred to as a province:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/media-centre/house-of-lords-media-notices/2021/june-2021/has-the-protocol-on-ireland-northern-ireland-been-a-contributory-factor-to-the-recent-community-disturbances-in-the-province/ Georgephilippe (talk) 23:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

Can anyone replace the Ulster Banner with the Tudor Crown with the one with the St Edward's Crown (as the latter is the one used in the majority of the other articles)? 177.76.145.165 (talk) 00:35, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit protected}} template. —Sirdog (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

RfC

What Ulster Banner should be put in this article?

• A: The one with the Tudor Crown (current).
• B: The one with the St Edward's Crown (most recent and used in more articles).

191.9.63.220 (talk) 02:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• RfC tag removed, need to start a discussion first per WP:RFCBEFORE. ––FormalDude (talk) 03:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Northern Ireland hasn't had a flag of its own, since 1972/73. It uses the UK's flag, instead. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay: But the Ulster Banner appears in this article. We are discussing about it.191.9.63.220 (talk) 13:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Irish Language Official?

Currently the Infobox states that the Irish language is an official language in Northern Ireland. It is my understanding that it will become official when the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill receives royal assent and becomes law. At the present moment that hasn't happened and the link to it says it's passed the commons but not yet had royal assent so therefore not yet law. Wouldn't it be better to move Irish back to the "recognised minority languages" until the bill does receive royal assent? C. 22468 Talk to me 13:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Demonym - Northern Irish

Why does this pages infobox not contain the demonym Northern Irish. See article People of Northern Ireland which explains this demonym. B1t3j (talk) 20:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I'd recommend searching the archives and reading the discussions we've had about it in the past and the decisions made there. That all being said, it's been a while since those discussions and consensus and consensus can change, so perhaps it's time for a new RFC or discussion on it. Canterbury Tail talk 20:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Transport

The Transport section has an uncited comment that Northern Ireland has underdeveloped transport infrastructure, but then lists 5 rail lines, lots of motorways, a few airports, and a few seaports.

Is that really underdeveloped? Or is it consistent with other areas of similar population? 92.41.42.172 (talk) 09:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2023

in the irish language part of it it says in May 2022 there was legislation proposed but its already been passed in december. update Whatoaejfeas (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Next time, please remember to include a reliable source to support your change. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 19:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2023

change

The otter is the fourth largest land mammal in Northern Ireland you can find it along the river systems, although it is seldom seen and will avoid contact with humans.

to

The otter is the fourth largest land mammal in Northern Ireland. It can be found along the river systems, although it is seldom seen and will avoid contact with humans. Profmore (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:19, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2024

Have found a source for "English is a de facto official language". Official status of languages in the UK and Ireland Mac Sithigh D, Common Law World Review (2018) states the source for this as "Dunbar R (2007) Diversity in addressing diversity: Canadian and British legislative approaches to linguistic minorities and their international legal context. In: Williams C (ed) Language and Governance. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, pp.104-158. " Page 112, although I cannot check this as I do not have access to the original. Brimsby (talk) 11:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This has been superseded by the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022. Canterbury Tail talk 14:11, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.Shadow311 (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)