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Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity

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Tesla´s Passport

[edit]

(moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla)

Would it be possible to insert a picture of Teslas Passport from the year 1883? --Croq (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the significance or relevance of this picture. — Sadko (words are wind) 15:02, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
...well It is significant because it is a document that shows his citizenship. He travelled to the USA with that document--Croq (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
...translation: royal croatian, slavonian, dalmatian government...--Croq (talk) 21:45, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I see; once again, completely irrelevant. Nothing else to add here. — Sadko (words are wind) 00:57, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Been discussed before An unreadable document that is not pivotal (its an everyday object) would have very little MOS:PERTINENCE. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If it is unreadable to you, it does not mean that it is not readable to others. If for you such a document is not pivotal and has very little pertinence, it does not mean that for others it is not pivotal or pertinent. BTW, what is pivotal and pertinent for you? Such thinking is typically pro-Serbian: every document or everything from Croatia is not pivotal, not pertinent, irrelevant or similar. Bravo! --Silverije 23:58, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Its a passport. Its run of the mill and is not there to illustrate something unusual happened, like Tesla lied about his name, faked family members, it was stamped "Rejected" and Tesla was thrown out of the country, etc. So it fails MOS:PERTINENCE. - its primarily decorative, doesn't have clear and unique illustrative purpose and is not an important illustrative aid to understanding. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It does state Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia. Can we at least agree on what's written on it or that's too much for your narrative? 212.15.177.38 (talk) 12:15, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Croq, this discussion can help you understand why some of those users disagree [1]. For instance Sadko has said that "Tesla's relation to Croatia in any way, shape or form is almost non-existing". Undestandable, Tesla's passport being issued by Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia is completely irrelevant. How else would his relation to Croatia be almoust non-existing? 78.1.126.217 (talk) 22:04, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason to include it would be as a source on Tesla's birth nationality. As such it is a primary source. Unsupported primary sources are not accepted as WP:reliable sources on Wikipedia, see WP:PSTS. It is also misleading, since the text says: ". . . royal Croatian, Slavonian, Dalmatian government . . .", while other WP:RSs in the article make clear there was no internationally recognised Croation government at the time; the name of the geographical area where Tesla was born was the Military Frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. --ChetvornoTALK 01:12, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As Trimpops correctly pointed out in the last discussion, the point here is that you disagree with this primary source. And you are trying to supress it from entering the article. It would be a different story if you would agree with the source and had an opinion that it's not needed in the article. Look we can all read the passport which states Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia; provintial government. What do you want us others to do, to ignore this primary source and agree with your standpoint that Tesla had absolutely no connections to Croatia? Ok, have it in the article or not, but don't come here to talk page with such falwed claims and delete, ban and supress editors which point this discrepency and bias of yours. 89.172.121.95 (talk) 20:54, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

𝔅𝔦𝔰-𝔖𝔢𝔯𝔧𝔢𝔱𝔞?, you mentioned that labeling Tesla as Croatia-American is Croatian-nationalist viewpoint. How do you reconsile him having passport of Kindom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmata with your viewpoint? You do understand that Serbian American reffers to ethnicity, while Croatian-American to nationality? Those aren't mutually exclusive formulations. Contary to viewpoint that some people have shared here, his passport is a strong primary source. There are also a lot of secondary sources labeling him as Croatian scientist. You do realize that Wikipedia article is using the most common formulation, Serbian American. It does not exclude him being Croatian scientist. 83.131.236.122 (talk) 23:14, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's their attitude on this page. They are ignoring sources and valid points. Look at the last discussion that they have urged to be put into archive to be less visible. You'll see how they directly push pov against sources. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 13:42, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is "ignoring sources and valid points." People here are looking at the passport as a primary source which does not define the topic. WP:SECONDARY sources define the topics on Wikipedia. Primary sources cannot contradict expert analysis. Binksternet (talk) 16:50, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is that some would ignore secondary sources that have something to say about his connections with Croatia (which was a country with changing names, just like Italy and pretty much any country in Europe, but somehow Michelangelo gets to be Italian, long before Italy was founded). Some would also ignore MOS:ETHNICITY, which is against mentioning someone's ethnicity, as opposed to mentioning their citizenship. Recently, a user put added a sentence that said that Croatian was taught as Tesla's mother tongue at school, but then some defenders of any mention of anything Croatian said the article was already too long. So let's talk about double standards. 216.9.110.11 (talk) 20:04, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Tesla's diploma states Croatian as mother language. It lists Croatian Military Frontier, and despites they claim how Military Frontier was something completely different than Croatia. Despite the name literally says "Croatian". Tesla himself has said: "I was born in Croatia". This are all valid primary sources. Of course, when primary sources don't go along with their opinion, they wrongly claim that Wikipedia doesn't use primary sources. But there's more, when someone puts forward secondary sources, like Trimpops. They are again ignoring them. Look at what this secondary source says: "Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina". Again they have problems with it stating Croatia. Binksternet, yes , you are ignoring and supressing sources, both primary and secondary. And to be more ridiculous, this doesn't even have anything to do with Tesla. He was just one person born in 19th century Lika. Military Frontier article doesn't have such problems. It clearly lists MF being a part of Croatia, but to say so in Tesla page, it's somehow a nationalistic viewpoint. Sorry, but this isn't objective and if you won't acknowledge this, I'm pointing it for others to see. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Binksternet. This is completely incorrect. Please read Wikipedia:PRIMARYNOTBAD. To directly quote ""Primary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used". And this is all speaking of the usage in the article. For discussions and making valid points, primary sources are absoltely allowed to be used. We have a number of secondary sources that you have ignored. Most notably Trimpops' discussion where you have completely ignored it. There's no contradiction with some expert analysis. In the past discussion you have provided no sources to support such claims. This is really unobjective and not how Wikipedia is built. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 20:59, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This passport image requires interpretation, which is absent. An independent author must analyze it to determine how important it is to Tesla's nationality. The image by itself is useless. Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but that's just incorrect. I've just quoted you Wikipedia guidelines. It is a valid source. Not useless and certainly not to be ignored to formulate comletely opposite claims as you have done. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 21:19, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's even ridiculous to claim that someone's passport is useless. Did the border control say to Tesla "ok I see your passport, but it's useless, we need interpretation". It's just ridiculous, but if you want to make such claim , I'll restate the source you are aware of . Secondary source , that is, which does provide the "interpretation" you seek. Just for you ""the village where Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slavonia.". O'Neill (1944), page 12". Here you go. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 21:32, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Binksternet. Would require evaluation. Anyway it's not important what words are printed on a passport; what matters is the legal status of the land when Tesla was born. --ChetvornoTALK 22:21, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Chetvorno Per Wikipedia guidelines, primary sources are valid. This really isn't opened for a debate. It was debated when the guidelines were debated. I've linked you the guidelines. Not only it's valid and a strong primary source, but I've just provided a quote from secodary source as evaluation you seek, which you have just now completely ignored. So please , don't claim that there is no "evaluation". Also, relevant Wiki articles aready describe "the legal status of the land when Tesla was born", but again you are ignoring that as well. 89.172.171.27 (talk) 23:10, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Chetvorno, in the past 10 years, numerous primary, secondary sources in form on Tesla biographies and historical sources have been presented. I'm sorry, but promoting opinions that Tesla has absolutely no connections to Croatia is unobjective. And I'm really not having that much problems with article body. It correctly states Military Frontier as birthplace and following the link one can read Horvat's source in that article. What I'm having problems with is that some editors on this talk page are promoting opinions that are contary to Wiki articles and contrary to the following sources. This isn't objective and when someone points that out he/she's personally attacked:

  • I was born in Croatia - primary source, Tesla's own statement in Tribute to King Alexander
  • Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia, provincial government - primary source, stated on Tesla's passport
  • Croatian Military Froniter, primary source, stated on Tesla's 6th grade diploma, [2]
  • Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina ...", secondary source, Tesla biography, Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13
  • the village where Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slavonia, secondary source, Tesla biography, O'Neill (1944), page 12
  • From 1850 the Frontier, Croatia and Slavonia formally constituted a single land, but with separate administration and representation, Horvat, secondary historical source, already included in Military Frontier article
  • Manifest...was signed by the Emperor...in 1850. For Croatian-Slavonian Military Border it was concluded...Croatian-Slavonian Military area will remain, as it was up to now, in union with it's mother land and will constitute with it one territorial area, but with separated provincial administration, separated border administration and separated represenation, secondary historical source, M Valentić · 1978, page 48 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.109.138 (talk • contribs)
They are ignoring you , like they ignore these sources. They have directly opposite opinion which they pushed to the article. As already said, this few editors can go againt sources, because Coatians don't think of Tesla to be connected to Croatia. You can see how Croatian editors supported that opinion in the previous discussions. Now and then someone comes, but it's always 5 against one and they usually pesonally attack and ban that editor. 212.15.178.19 (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But this simply isn't true that they've pushed their opinion into the article. Wikipedia already states that Tesla was born in Croatia. Only some edtiors have an opinion that Tesla has no connections to Croatia, but this isn't present in the article. This article mentions present-day Croatia and links to Military Frontier, and Military Frontier article states that Military Frontier was a part of Kingdom of Croatia at the time of Tesla's birth. Later it was even abolished. What exactly is the problem here? 78.1.98.36 (talk) 21:09, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Go figure. Flawed logic on their end, but I doubt they put much thought into it. In their minds present day Croatia means that the territory of Tesla's birth become Croatian much later and has nothing to do with Tesla. Like the territory of the Roman Empire is nowadays , let's say Romania. You wouldn't say it was Romania during the Roman time. But, it's true that article doesn't state that opinion of theirs and quite contrary, MF article states the opposite. That MF was Croatian Territory when Tesla was born. But you can understand, how they, according to their opinion, don't want to see Croatia stated on Tesla's personal documents. 212.15.178.19 (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Observation: Underrepresentation of Croatia in Tesla's Early Biography
The “Early Years” section in many accounts of Nikola Tesla’s life appears to minimize or entirely omit references to Croatia, despite clear historical evidence of its influence on his early development:
  1. Birthplace: Tesla was born in Smiljan, which was part of the Croatian Military Frontier within the Austrian Empire. Yet many biographies refer only to the "Military Frontier" or vaguely to Austria-Hungary, omitting any mention of Croatia.
  2. Education: Tesla studied at the Higher Real Gymnasium in Karlovac, near Zagreb (60 km / 38 miles from the capitol of Croatia, to be precise). Despite this, some summaries only note that his classes were held in German, ignoring the fact that his high school diploma includes Croatian language coursework, as seen in this primary source.
  3. Wording in Patents and Papers: Some references to Tesla’s later patent filings use phrasing like “Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary” — this is often cited without context, giving the impression of no connection to Croatia, even though by that point, the region was incorporated into the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia.
  4. Passport Evidence: Tesla’s passport from the period was issued by the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia and written in the Croatian language, further affirming his administrative and cultural ties to Croatia at the time.
Conclusion: The "Early Years" section of Nikola Tesla's life reads like a carefully curated text in order to remove any mention of Croatia. This of course goes in favor of Great Serbian irredentist movement where anything Croatian is negated, and unfortunately moderators of the English Wikipedia Nikola Tesla page seem to be working in collusion with them or at least favor their view of history. 188.252.196.14 (talk) 13:55, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There are numerous evidences of serious breaches of Wiki rules and guidelines on this page. I'm sorry to say, but it's a well known rumour that some people are payed to edit Wiki articles to fit their viewpoint. With so many bots and payed agents on social media nowadays, it wouldn't be a surprise Wikipedia is also affected. I've contacted ARBCOM to report a cease and I have the full correspondance with ARBCOM saved. I have made a report and offered to provide evidences of serious violations of Wiki rules and guidelines on this page. They have blatantly refused to see the evidences with a claim that there's no need to see the evidences, since they have reviewed "everything" themselves and found no violations. This is not how an impartial side should work. This is how courts in Russia are working nowadays. Sorry, to say, but if they have made their own rules, they are not in a position to refuse to see evidences violations. They have undermined the principles of Wikipedia. Unfortunately we are living in a world where this kind of behavior has become normality. 78.3.123.45 (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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