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Zhao Chongguo

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Zhao Chongguo (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 7 June 2025, 00:14 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:05, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Zhao Chongguo was a general of the Western Han dynasty of China. Born on the rural western frontiers of the empire, he served as an officer in several campaigns against the Xiongnu before (in his seventies!) leading a campaign against the Qiang in what is now Qinghai. He is known mainly through an extensive biography in the Book of Han, through which his advocacy of the Tuntian system became influential on later Chinese military history. This is my first milhist article, and to date my only A-class: I hope everyone enjoys it!

Just in case they're interested, pinging Borsoka who helped with the GAN review, and Matarisvan, Hawkeye7, and Hog Farm who helped with the A Class review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:10, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Toadspike

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  • Can't promise a full review, but the zh template around "tuntian" in the lead caught my eye. I believe the output is only supposed to go in brackets. I suggest converting to tuntian (lit. 'farming garrisons').
    • Fixed. - G
  • Also, the related article Marquis of Haihun doesn't mention Zhao Chongguo at all, instead listing three other people as helping Huo Guang. It would be nice to add Zhao to that article and perhaps add those people (Zhang Anshi, Yang Chang, and Sima Ying) to this article, if you have sources for them.
Thanks for the ping. Sadly I am very busy with Real Life right now and I am unlikely to do much reviewing for a while. Toadspike [Talk] 20:15, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc

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Lead
  • Could military science be linked in the lead (I am aware of the fact that it has been linked in the body)?
    • Fixed. - G
  • His life and career is known mainly through a biography in the Book of Han The sentence is missing a full stop. MSincccc (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed. - G
  • Could you please clarify whether the article is written in British or American English?
    • American, added template. -G
Early life and career
Military service, Later life, and Death and legacy sections
  • It should be "breach" not "breech" (used in two sentences).
    • Fixed. - G

A few minor suggestions for prose above; I will review the Campaign against the Qiang section later. MSincccc (talk) 17:23, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Campaign against the Qiang
  • "Huangshui valley"-Could “Valley” be capitalised as it is part of a geographical proper noun?
    • Fixed. - G
  • "Hexi corridor"-Could “Corridor” be capitalised as it is part of a geographical proper noun?
    • Fixed. - G
  • The Grand Administrator of Jincheng, an administrator who governed the commandery's force of 10,000 cavalry, was also sent to reinforce Zhao Ang. Could "an administrator" be dropped from this sentence to avoid redundancy?
    • Fixed. - G

That's all from me. Looking forward to your response, Generalissima. MSincccc (talk) 10:39, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Matarisvan

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Hi Generalissima, my comments:

  • “in the Shanggui prefecture of the Longxi commandery”: Use of “the” doesn’t seem necessary. Perhaps this could be rewritten as “in Shanggui prefecture in Longxi commandery”?
    • Fixed. - G
  • “a group from which many noted Han generals had their origins”: Does not seem grammatically correct. Perhaps “a group many noted Han generals originally belonged to” would be better?
    • Fixed. - G
  • “in the Jincheng commandery”; “in the Wudu commandery”: “the” doesn’t seem necessary.
    • Fixed. - G
  • “descendants of men who died in military”: “descendants of men who had died during military service”?
    • Fixed. - G
  • “infamous to the Xiongnu”: replace “to” with “among”?
    • Fixed. - G
  • Consider standardising on using either of BC or BCE?
    • Done. - G
  • “who did not seek to take immediate offensive operations”: “who was not looking to launch offensive operations immediately”?
    • Fixed. - G
  • “abolished by the fall of the usurper emperor”: What do we mean here? Was it abolished by the time of this fall, or was if abolished because of the fall?
    • We just know that by that point it had been abolished; rephrased. -G
  • We have only 3 photos in the article. Could we add a photo of the Weiyang Palace in the Later life section?
    • Added. -G

That’s all from me. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 11:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Generalissima, still waiting on your comments. You there? Matarisvan (talk) 07:58, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rollinginhisgrave

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Hi Generalissima, the article looks nice and clean on a first look over. Some comments I'll finish off over the next day:

  • Is there a reason "General Li Guangli's" is capitalized? As with Chief Commandant
    • MOS:JOBTITLE seems to suggest that it'd be capitalized there; the second seems a bit more ambiguous so I reworded to make it lowercase. - G
  • "which gave him control over the minting of cash coinage." a bit confusing, seems the role of managing parks solely entails this from this wording
    • Reworded. -G
  • the scandal and suicide of his son The scandal of his son (existence/event)? Of his son's suicide?
    • Reworded. -G
  • and became known as are we still in speculation? If not, is this taking place in 104?
    • Still in speculation. -G
      • I'm still a bit confused by Little is known about Zhao's early life or military experience prior to 104. What happened in/after 104? - RIHG
        • Oops, good point; reworded. -G
          • The article is now saying he joined the unit in 104 in the early life section and 100 in the military career section. - RIHG
            • Ope... looking closely at the source, I'm not sure why he says 104 (I guess that'd be the earliest possible date he could have joined?) Rephrased to make it consistent. - G
  • a position he would ultimately hold -> a position/which he held ?
    • Fixed. -G
  • I'm a bit mixed on the omission of BC throughout but I will defer to other reviewers who apparently have not taken issue
    • MOS says to only use it when ambiguous, so I've tried to follow it. -G
  • a particular threat -> particularly threatening ? May reflect preference
  • greatly weaken the Qiang, and allow WP:CINS
    • Reworded. -G
  • Memorial (law) is not a good link, but I am noting I had to look up the meaning in this context.
    • Wiktionary might be more appropriate; linked. -G
  • "Eighteen of the high officials" out of how many?
    • Out of an unknown number; rephrased. -G
  • I think there's value in identifying the amount of gold as 60 catties to give the reasoning behind the quantity.
    • Done. -G

Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 16:27, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got, it's a very enjoyable read. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 01:44, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rollinginhisgrave: Thank you very much! Responded. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:41, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
All looking good, lodging my support. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 22:47, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from Dracophyllum - pass

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  • img1: license good; commons tags good, caption good, alt good
  • img2: license good; tags good, caption good, alt good, image does appear a little cluttered
    • Swapped out for another image of cavalry sculptures. - G
  • img3: license good; tags good, caption good, alt good.
  • img4: license good; tags good, caption doesn't need full stop as not a full sentence, alt good, consider increasing image size slightly.

Source review from Dracophyllum – pass

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  • I note there are only 8 sources in the bibliography. Not that this is a FA criteria, I do note that it is only 5 more than the three needed for GNG Consider bolstering with the following, although note many of these just briefly touch on the subject. Still, I think the more the merrier. Dracophyllum 06:23, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • [1]
    • [2]
    • [3] Through proquest on WP:TWL
    • [4]
    • [5]
      • The above two sources seem to like quoting the line: "The reason why it is easy to control the Qiang is that as soon as there are influential men they attack each other, so naturally they cannot unite." Would be cool to see this in a quote box somewhere.
        • Also given as "The reason why the Qiang people are easy to keep under control is because each tribe has its own leader (hao), they are frequently at war with one another, and they are not unified." in Dreyer 2008.
    • [6]
spotchecking
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  • ref1: good; a cavalryman from Shanggui thanks TWL for the access here
  • ref4: page is invalid here, also not clear where in the source the claim is supported
    • ...for Tse 2018? That's a perfectly valid page for me. According to the stele inscription, which traces the history of the Zhao family, Zhao Zhongkuang, the great-grandfather of Zhao Chongguo, was the Superintendent of the Privy Treasury (Shaofu ) sometime during the reigns of Emperor Wen and Jing. His son Sheng, was appointed Advisory Counselor (Jianyi Dafu). Sheng had two sons: the elder one was a magistrate of a county and the younger, Chongguo’s father, was a Palace Attendant. The Zhaos suffered a setback when Chongguo’s father committed a serious offense in the imperial palace, and the family was accordingly exiled to the Shanggui county in the Longxi commandery. That was the beginning of the Zhaos as inhabitants of the northwest. - G
  • ref5: I believe you also want page 716 (for Zhao Yu), and pages 689-690 for Zhao Sheng, also pages 716 and 717 for Zhao Zhongkuang.
    • Added. - G
  • ref7: not clear to me how this support the claim
    • Oops, meant page 58 here. -G
  • ref9: This reference actually leads to a translation of an ancient artifact Zhao Kuan’s Stele. Is this WP:RS?
    • This was to cite his courtesy name, but i realize this is already in Dreyer, lol. - G
  • ref10: confirms he was promoted after wounds were inspected
  • ref14: good
  • ref16: good
  • ref18: I can't see where these pages/page say Barkol Lake, Also you can link to Barkol Kazakh Autonomous County#Geography.
    • Loewe cites Hulsewe, who says P'u-le (Lake) P’u-lei, long identified with Lake Barkul. see e.g. Chavannes (1907), p. 209 i don't think that'd be a good link, because the geographical feature is almost certainly separately notable (and for stuff like this, a red link can encourage a page creation). -G
  • ref21: Good
  • ref35: good
  • ref41: good
  • ref44: good
  • With the exception of a few refs, the whole of |#Campaign against the Qiang| relies on Dreyer 2008. This is not ideal; is it the only detailed source on the subject?
    • Added some more context. Since his biography ultimately stems from the Han Shu, all sources are ultimately summaries and interpretations of the same document (with some context from that stele and mentions in other biographies etc.); thus, i think the relative paucity of sources is understandable, because there's not much more to be said without new records. - G
    • Needs some more sauce. Dracophyllum 06:23, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Dracophyllum: implemented and responded to your suggestions! Apologies for the delay. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:10, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok I can give this a pass now. I would like to see the quote I wrote above; it gives some good context, but it's not a deal breaker. Cheers, Dracophyllum 06:01, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Dracophyllum, thanks for your input. We need the source review to cover the reliability of the references, and also their formatting. Can you comment on those aspects? Apologies if I've missed something... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Apologies–forgot to mention. All of the sources are high quality reliable academic sources. As noted, much of what we know is based on an ancient account called the "han shu". Not much can be done about that. Sfn referencing is clean and there are no errors. The references all use title case consistently. cheers, Dracophyllum 10:22, 5 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for prompt response, Dracophyllum. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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