Template:Did you know nominations/Betsy Arakawa
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 02:07, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
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Betsy Arakawa
... that Gene Hackman stayed with his wife for about a week after she died?Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c89ydyjewjlo- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/St. George Utah Temple
- Comment: Driveby nom. Much of this was written in dribs and drabs; apologies if I missed any substantial contributions.
Moved to mainspace by PrinceArchelaus (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 283 past nominations.
Launchballer 17:24, 9 March 2025 (UTC).
- Hi Launchballer given something like this was in In the News recently (and was fairly controversial), do you have any other ideas for a hook about Arakawa? Tenpop421 (talk) 17:39, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- No, and I wouldn't have thought that was a problem. Articles are only disqualified if they appear as a boldlink and Arakawa was never boldlinked there.--Launchballer 18:14, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- @Launchballer: I wasn't talking about a disqualification, I just thought it might attract flack as gratuitous, as the ITN blurb did. BLP does apply to the recently dead, and to focus on the particularly unpleasant death of the pair seems unfair to this talented couple. Tenpop421 (talk) 18:23, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'd have to do some actual research into her.--Launchballer 18:55, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- There isn't much information on her. She was a private person and died a sudden natural death caused by illness, which is not a noteworthy fact, and Hackman subsequently died essentially from old age, being 95, i.e. from a heart condition, which is even less noteworthy, and the fact that they died seven days apart during which period he did not call anyone because he did not comprehend the situation due to his advanced Alzheimer's is also exactly what anyone* (* anyone who knows what Alzheimer's disease is and what it means to be 95 years old with advanced Alzheimers) would expect to happen under the circumstances. Therefore, the hook fails WP:DYKGRAT. It is not unusual or intriguing and it is gratuitous.—Alalch E. 22:04, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- Alalch E. Launchballer there's an ongoing AfD discussion about this article. Tenpop421 (talk) 14:43, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- It's hard to know for sure, but it doesn't look like the article will be deleted. @Launchballer: I'm not a fan of ALT0 based on what Alach E. wrote above. Can you offer another one? Up above, Alalch says Arakawa was a private person and her death isn't noteworthy, but I disagree with them on that point. Exposure to hantavirus is rare, but New Mexico has had the highest number of hantavirus cases recorded since 1993.[1] Further, our article on the effects of climate change on hantavirus suggests that climate change in New Mexico may be partly to blame. For me, the rarity of Arakawa's death due to hantavirus is notable and should form the basis of the new hook. Viriditas (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- MEDRS is well out of my comfort zone, but I can suggest ALT1: ... that Betsy Arakawa died of a rare disease passed from rodents? I can also suggest, per a tip-off at the AfD,
ALT2: ... that after Betsy Arakawa died, Snopes debunked a rumor involving the FBI discovering 701 bodies in a tunnel under her house?--Launchballer 13:37, 14 March 2025 (UTC)- I have removed the ALT2 claim from the article, consistent with the rationale in my edit summary.—Alalch E. 16:04, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
- Good edit. For those not familiar with what is happening, the QAnon disinformation effort mines science fiction for ideas and then adapts it to modern news stories to use as propaganda against so-called liberals. The "underground tunnels" idea began with Mole people in fiction. During the COVID-19 pandemic, pro-MAGA QAnon-related social media accounts (some homegrown, some connected to foreign nations) began to spread the idea that the pandemic was a cover story for saving the "mole children" in underground tunnels. As always, liberals and democrats were the antagonists in these tales. Gene Hackman was a famous supporter of the Democratic Party. It is not surprising to see the same QAnon conspiracy theories about underground tunnels being found under his house after his death. This is part of a larger disinformation campaign by the pro-Trump wing injecting an infodemic of false information into the media on a daily basis, or what they refer to as "flooding the zone". There are earlier antecedents to this kind of thing in the right wing literature focused on conspiracy theories in United States politics. While the more modern version is focused on the exploitation of children in underground tunnels, Mother Jones traces it back to 1980s conservatism and the Satanic panic.[2] It also resurfaced in the 1990s as part of the right wing underground bases conspiracy theory (see Dulce Base), which was traced back to old science fiction stories created by Richard Sharpe Shaver in the 1940s. Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 15 March 2025 (UTC)
- I have removed the ALT2 claim from the article, consistent with the rationale in my edit summary.—Alalch E. 16:04, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
- MEDRS is well out of my comfort zone, but I can suggest ALT1: ... that Betsy Arakawa died of a rare disease passed from rodents? I can also suggest, per a tip-off at the AfD,
- It's hard to know for sure, but it doesn't look like the article will be deleted. @Launchballer: I'm not a fan of ALT0 based on what Alach E. wrote above. Can you offer another one? Up above, Alalch says Arakawa was a private person and her death isn't noteworthy, but I disagree with them on that point. Exposure to hantavirus is rare, but New Mexico has had the highest number of hantavirus cases recorded since 1993.[1] Further, our article on the effects of climate change on hantavirus suggests that climate change in New Mexico may be partly to blame. For me, the rarity of Arakawa's death due to hantavirus is notable and should form the basis of the new hook. Viriditas (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- Alalch E. Launchballer there's an ongoing AfD discussion about this article. Tenpop421 (talk) 14:43, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- There isn't much information on her. She was a private person and died a sudden natural death caused by illness, which is not a noteworthy fact, and Hackman subsequently died essentially from old age, being 95, i.e. from a heart condition, which is even less noteworthy, and the fact that they died seven days apart during which period he did not call anyone because he did not comprehend the situation due to his advanced Alzheimer's is also exactly what anyone* (* anyone who knows what Alzheimer's disease is and what it means to be 95 years old with advanced Alzheimers) would expect to happen under the circumstances. Therefore, the hook fails WP:DYKGRAT. It is not unusual or intriguing and it is gratuitous.—Alalch E. 22:04, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'd have to do some actual research into her.--Launchballer 18:55, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- @Launchballer: I wasn't talking about a disqualification, I just thought it might attract flack as gratuitous, as the ITN blurb did. BLP does apply to the recently dead, and to focus on the particularly unpleasant death of the pair seems unfair to this talented couple. Tenpop421 (talk) 18:23, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- No, and I wouldn't have thought that was a problem. Articles are only disqualified if they appear as a boldlink and Arakawa was never boldlinked there.--Launchballer 18:14, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
This article was kept at AfD and this DYK nomination needs a complete review from the top. (Struck ALT2 per discussion above). Full credit will be awarded to the reviewer. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:00, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
Doing... ミラP@Miraclepine 00:46, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Approved at AFC seven days before nom and sized at 3060 B; ITN/R appearance doesn't disqualify. Everything is verified and RS; did minor edits for close paraphrasing. Unless there are objections, I had to add a ref from the Gene Hackman page to fix a V issue. Oh, and ALT0 is relatively too in poor taste I agree, so we're going with ALT1 per what Viriditas said. BTW ref 7 notes she was a Punahou School graduate, but consider this optional. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:10, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
- Struck ALT0 so there is no confusion. Added Punahou School and other details from in-depth article in El País which refers to her as "Mrs. Hackman" throughout (the name she went by in real life). Cielquiparle (talk) 06:11, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
- Comment. Over the course of this DYK nomination, I have somehow become the #2 contributor to this article, but personally I am against running this article at DYK at this time. With nearly 700k pageviews to date, it has managed to generate enough readership on its own. Furthermore, despite the expansion and the fact that it has survived an AfD discussion, it seems to continue to provoke a negative response from readers who keep tagging it for deletion. I did not !vote in the AfD discussion as I was ambivalent initially; I now think the article does satisfy WP:GNG but that the article remains "unstable" and for that reason does not meet WP:DYKCOMPLETE. (Also, while memorialization of notable individuals is important, perhaps it's also OK to let people rest in peace.) (That said, I won't object if there's enough consensus to move forward with this DYK.) Cielquiparle (talk) 12:35, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
I share Cielquiparle's concerns. Adding a question mark because there doesn't seem to be consensus to promote at this time. Tenpop421 (talk) 13:42, 25 March 2025 (UTC)- The article is stable and technically passes the criteria; I can't agree that it isn't stable. However, "X died of a rare disease passed from rodents" goes against my moral sense as indelicate and ... irreverent. I just don't like it.—Alalch E. 16:53, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
- The article should calm down in its own time. As for the hook, ALT3: ... that Betsy Arakawa studied with Barack Obama? or ALT4: ... that Betsy Arakawa's house was once featured in Architectural Digest?--Launchballer 11:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to say that I support ALT3, but that statement is not explicitly made in the article. It is only said that she went to the same school, not "studied with Obama". She and Obama did attend the same school during partially overlapping periods, but this isn't stated explicitly in the source(s).No opinion on ALT4.—Alalch E. 15:16, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- ALT3a that Betsy Arakawa went to the same school as Barack Obama? Does that work better? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:29, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- For sure it is better than ALT3 but it is just another example of Betsy ostensibly deriving notability from a notable man who happens not to be Gene. (It's a Forrest Gump hook!) Still think we should just close this out rather than fan another round of AfD discussion. Lots of energy from a lot of people went into improving the article so far. Don't poke the bear. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:35, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe ALT4 would be a suitable compromise? At least that hook doesn't link Arakawa to another person and is actually about her. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:48, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- For sure it is better than ALT3 but it is just another example of Betsy ostensibly deriving notability from a notable man who happens not to be Gene. (It's a Forrest Gump hook!) Still think we should just close this out rather than fan another round of AfD discussion. Lots of energy from a lot of people went into improving the article so far. Don't poke the bear. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:35, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- ALT3a that Betsy Arakawa went to the same school as Barack Obama? Does that work better? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:29, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to say that I support ALT3, but that statement is not explicitly made in the article. It is only said that she went to the same school, not "studied with Obama". She and Obama did attend the same school during partially overlapping periods, but this isn't stated explicitly in the source(s).No opinion on ALT4.—Alalch E. 15:16, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- The article should calm down in its own time. As for the hook, ALT3: ... that Betsy Arakawa studied with Barack Obama? or ALT4: ... that Betsy Arakawa's house was once featured in Architectural Digest?--Launchballer 11:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
- Comment. Over the course of this DYK nomination, I have somehow become the #2 contributor to this article, but personally I am against running this article at DYK at this time. With nearly 700k pageviews to date, it has managed to generate enough readership on its own. Furthermore, despite the expansion and the fact that it has survived an AfD discussion, it seems to continue to provoke a negative response from readers who keep tagging it for deletion. I did not !vote in the AfD discussion as I was ambivalent initially; I now think the article does satisfy WP:GNG but that the article remains "unstable" and for that reason does not meet WP:DYKCOMPLETE. (Also, while memorialization of notable individuals is important, perhaps it's also OK to let people rest in peace.) (That said, I won't object if there's enough consensus to move forward with this DYK.) Cielquiparle (talk) 12:35, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
- @Tenpop421, Cielquiparle, and Alalch E.: Given that the AFD was closed as keep and thus is unlikely to be AFD'd again any time soon, can this be given another look? We do have an ALT4 if there's concern about running a hook about Arakawa being linked to someone else. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:06, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
- Articles get re-nominated for deletion all the time, some of them fairly quickly if there are people who don't agree with the result. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle: To make things clear, are you opposed to the article running due to notability concerns or the possibility of it being deleted in the future, or are you generally opposed to running the article regardless of any possible AFDs? I have to agree with Launchballer that, given how the AFD turned out, it's unlikely this will be nominated for deletion anytime soon (in practice it's very rare for articles kept at AFD with that kind of keep !voting to later be deleted at AFD, unless we're talking about the time before our notability guidelines got stricter). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:46, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Just had a good laugh looking at your AfD stats and wondering why you nominated "Pepsi", "OpenAI", "New York City", "TikTok", and "Déjà vu" for deletion. Cielquiparle (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Those were April Fools Day nominations. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:00, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Just had a good laugh looking at your AfD stats and wondering why you nominated "Pepsi", "OpenAI", "New York City", "TikTok", and "Déjà vu" for deletion. Cielquiparle (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle: To make things clear, are you opposed to the article running due to notability concerns or the possibility of it being deleted in the future, or are you generally opposed to running the article regardless of any possible AFDs? I have to agree with Launchballer that, given how the AFD turned out, it's unlikely this will be nominated for deletion anytime soon (in practice it's very rare for articles kept at AFD with that kind of keep !voting to later be deleted at AFD, unless we're talking about the time before our notability guidelines got stricter). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:46, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- Articles get re-nominated for deletion all the time, some of them fairly quickly if there are people who don't agree with the result. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:28, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
Arakawa in 1971
- ALT5: Betsy Arakawa performed as a pianist with the Honolulu Symphony Orchestra at age eleven (pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you Gerda for the hook. It is interesting, cited inline, and verified in the sources. I'm not a fan of the picture though due to the relatively low quality and thus would oppose the image being used. If there are no objections (and IMO the notability concerns are resolved),
I am approving ALT4 and ALT5 only, leaving the choice to the promoter. My only concern is that ALT5 may require knowledge of who Arakawa is to really be interesting (and not everyone follows the news and thus know about her and Hackman's deaths), whereas ALT4 is slightly broader in appeal since appearing in that magazine seems like a big deal even if one doesn't know who Arakawa is. However, I'm fine with either hook, so I'll let the promoter decide either way (albeit without the image). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:05, 7 April 2025 (UTC)