Talk:Odessa pogroms

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Jewish Encyclopedia

Removed the JE entry due to

One century out of date secondary source
non-NPV
reproducing content of another encyclopedia

Added two new sources, numbers 2 and 3 in the notes. Xenovatis (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding new sources, I hope that wiki page is and is going to stay reliable. However, I am restoring J.E. quotation. It is an important historical encyclopedic source and we mention its date. Note that historical encyclopedic sources may or may not fit to someone's idea of POV. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong date.

"In 1981, right after the begining of the Greek revolution in the Peloponese "

1891 maybe? Could someone who knows, update it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.86.107 (talk) 15:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1886

Can anyone provide a good citation for the 1886 pogrom? I can only find http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/pogrom.htm but it is possible they take the info from Wikipedia. They do seem to cite Visualizing pogroms in Russian history by Robert Weinberg[1] but the on-line edition is subscriber/pay only. Anyone?BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find it here: [2] which is currently cite #3. Сол-раз (talk) 04:31, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1905 aftermath

Testimony in the Mendel Beilis case, transcripts of which I am translating, suggest that private parties spent money on an investigation. Or was that only the Kishinev pogrom? 71.163.114.49 (talk) 13:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

The lede currently contains the sentance: "According to Jarrod Tanny, most historians argue that the earlier incidents were a result of "frictions unleashed by modernization" rather than antisemitism.[2] The 1905 pogrom was markedly larger in scale and antisemitism played a central role". This seems not quite right to me for a couple of reasons:

Firstly, "Someone (not important enough to have their own article) says other people say" seems a bit too vague, particularly for the lede. If there are lots of scholoars saying that, and little mainstream disagreement, then presumably we can just state that as fact, with references to back it up. On the other hand, if scholarly oppinion is more divided, then we shouldn't just say "someone says opinion ish't divided" with no counterpoint.

Secondly, and possibly more importantly, the cited text doesn't quite say what the lede says. "Not a resurgence of medieval anti-Semitism and Judeophobia" is not the same as "not due to anti-semitism". Modern and medieval antisemitism are - as I understand it - somewhat different beasts, derived from different prejudices. The former tends to be "they're too poor/too rich and taking all our jobs" combined with "And they run the government!" conspiracy theories, whereas the latter tended to be "they killed Christ". "Largely the product of frictions unleashed by modernization" is entierly compatible with the modern forms. 62.172.108.24 (talk) 18:15, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1881-1906 section

The Bolshevik Piatnitsky is not a reliable source or trustworthy source or credible source. His long section critiquing the Tsarist government (a Bolshevik saying anything to criticise the Russian Empire, imagine my shock) should be removed, --2001:8003:59DB:4100:C866:73A5:A4AA:6EC3 (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No comments? I'll remove it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:59DB:4100:4D2E:5C6F:2EF6:10D (talk) 07:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rename article to Odesa pogroms

Following the changes on Odesa page, the page should be renamed. 00:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Internetyev (talk • contribs)

There was no WP:RM. For now, the spelling needs to be consistent with the title. Mellk (talk) 01:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 March 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Odessa pogroms be renamed and moved to Odesa Pogroms.

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Odessa pogroms → Odesa Pogroms – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENCY. The article should reflect the modern, official spelling of the city per Ukrainian transliteration standards. See Odesa, 2014 Odesa clashes as precedents. Most modern reliable sources now use "Odesa", especially post-2022. Internetyev (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

During the time of the events the city was part of the Russian Empire and was known as Odessa. It hasn't been shown that this is a more common spelling for this particular event. Andre🚐 18:50, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why the suggestion to change "pogroms" to "Pogroms"? Is that intentional? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:32, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

this was not intentional. I meant to change "Odessa" spelling to "Odesa". Thank you for bringing this up. Internetyev (talk) 10:14, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the spirit of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places) § Referring to Kyiv: For unambiguously current/ongoing topics (e.g. Kyiv Metro), Kyiv is preferred. For unambiguously historical topics (e.g. Principality of Kiev), do not change existing content [from Kiev]. Note that we have three Kiev pogrom articles, with which Odessa pogrom would be consistent. The case of Odesa/Odessa is an omission from WP:UAPLACE, but it should be treated the same way as Kyiv/Kiev, and should be added to that "general guideline". (It would be more consistent if other cases like Chornobyl/Chernobyl worked this way as well, but currently Chernobyl is favoured at all times.) Ham II (talk) 10:18, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Ham II. Zacwill (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are two questions to address here. The first explicit question is substituting Odesa for Odessa, while the second is capitalisation of pogroms for which the nomination gives no explicit rationale. To the first, WP:MODERNPLACENAME applies and is an exception to WP:CONSISTENT (not WP:CONSISTENCY, which is a disambiguation page), since WP:CONSISTENT directs us to WP:TITLECON and then to topic specific naming conventions under which WP:MODERNPLACENAME falls. A google scholar search for Odesa Pogroms returns no hits compared with Odessa pogroms here, where pogroms is consistently lowercase. A search of google books returns only four hits for Odesa Pogroms here but a multitude of hits for Odessa pogroms here, which are mostly lowercase pogroms and the few exceptions are generally references to the title of the work, Odessa: Pogroms in a Cosmopolitan City. While Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places) does not explicitly refer to Odesa/Odessa in the same way it does to Kyiv/Kiev, the spirit and intent of the guidance is nonetheless clear and does not support the proposal. While WP:COMMONNAME (and/or WP:NAMECHANGES) might justify the present name of the article, Odesa, and in articles about contemporary events, reading the pertinent P&G in full does not reasonably support a change from the historic name in an article about an historic event. If anything, the evidence of usage in sources only confirms that the historic name is the COMMONNAME for this historic even. Evidence of usage in sources also shows us that we should not be capitalising pogroms per WP:NCCAPS (invoked by WP:LOWERCASE at WP:AT). Cinderella157 (talk) 03:01, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
thank you for your detailed research. Internetyev (talk) 09:50, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]