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Requested move 8 November 2015

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over a week. Jenks24 (talk) 06:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Zhengtong Emperor → Zhu Qizhen – or Emperor Yingzong of Ming. WP:NC-ZH specifies that emperors of the Ming dynasty and Qing dynasty should be titled using their era names and the rationale is that unlike monarchs of previous dynasties, each Ming and Qing emperor only has 1 era name during his reign — except this guy, who had 2 (due to his capture by the Mongols). Therefore Zhengtong Emperor is inaccurate to say the least. A Google Ngram search finds no results for Zhengtong Emperor, Tianshun Emperor, Emperor Zhengtong and Emperor Tianshun, but Zhu Qizhen gets a graph. (Although Zhu Qizhen is also the name of the modern diplomat, a casual glance at the Google Book search results shows that over 90% of the "Zhu Qizhen" results are about the emperor.) Also see Template:Ming emperors on how changing the title is necessary. Timmyshin (talk) 12:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
@Timmyshin and Jenks24: I saw this too late to make a comment before the discussion was closed. I believe Emperor Yingzong of Ming would be a better title, as his personal name is not well known (partly because emperors' given names were considered taboo during imperial China). Most Chinese emperor articles use temple names or posthumous names, not personal names. The Chinese wikipedia also uses the Emperor Yingzong title. -Zanhe (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Timmyshin: So, just to be clear, you would be happy with the "Emperor Yingzong of Ming"? If so, it might just make more sense for me to move it now rather than list the whole thing at RM for another week – it doesn't appear that there a lot of people interested in this title. Jenks24 (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. I as a rule prefer personal names, in this case Zhu Qizhen, and NGram shows that it's not obscure. While it's true an emperor's given name is taboo during his dynasty, at least it was used during his life unlike a temple name which is posthumous. Plus, this emperor was a prisoner for quite a few years, and I doubt his captors (including first the Mongols and later his brother) had to observe the naming taboo. The other 2 Ming/Qing emperors not titled by their era names, Hong Taiji and Puyi (I don't consider Nurhaci an emperor), are both titled by their personal names (Hong Taiji may not be a personal name and that's up for debate, but for sure it's not a temple name). Timmyshin (talk) 04:29, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 November 2015

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 14:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Zhu Qizhen → Emperor Yingzong of Ming – Most Chinese emperor articles use temple, era, or posthumous names, not personal names. Yingzong is more common than Zhu Qizhen in reliable sources: Yingzong Ming = 2350 results; "Zhu Qizhen" Ming = 637 results. Also see discussion above. Zanhe (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 08:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

GA review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Emperor Yingzong of Ming/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 09:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 03:15, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Image review

Source review

  • Make a separate list for primary sources and scholarly works.
  • Follow ABC order when listing the sources.
  • Robinson: ISSN is missing.
    I am not sure books and journals are to be liste separately. Borsoka (talk) 02:22, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Primary sources are frequently cited. How did you achive the application of our relevant policy, especially the one requiring a reliable secondary source for "any interpretation of primary source material"?
    @Min968: what is your anwer? Borsoka (talk) 03:55, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Borsoka These are the sources I currently have access to, and they are quite reputable. As for the policies, I haven't really read them thoroughly and don't fully understand them. Min968 (talk) 04:21, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Without understanding our sourcing policies, one can hardly able to complete a GA. I think they are quite clear. Ping me when you answered my above question. Borsoka (talk) 06:47, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Borsoka: Thank you for taking the time to review my work. The primary source is quite reputable and comprehensive, making it difficult to find similar information elsewhere. However, to avoid relying solely on information from a single source, I have supplemented it with some secondary sources. For example, in the case I encountered while writing about the Zhengde Emperor, Cambridge History, Volume 7 states that he died on 19 April 1521. However, when checking information from other sources such as Goodrich & Fang (1976), Ming Shi, and Ming Wuzong Shilu, they all record that he died on 20 April. Min968 (talk) 14:16, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi @Borsoka, Are you still reviewing it, or has it failed? Min968 (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I will continue the review on Saturday. Thank you for your patience. Borsoka (talk) 15:08, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The secondary sources cited are academic works of high quality. Borsoka (talk) 03:28, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please copy from the cited scholarly works the text verifying the following statements? Borsoka (talk) 10:55, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Zhu Qizhen was only seven years old, prompting a proposal to place his uncle, Zhu Zhanshan, Prince of Xiang and Xuande's younger brother, on the throne.
    • When his father died in January, 1435, Chu Ch'i-chen was only eight years of age. Someone in the palace proposed placing a mature ruler on the thorne, and suggested the name of his uncle, Chu Chan-shan (the prince of Hsiang, 1406-78), whose mother was the dowager-empress Chang. Goodrich & Fang (1976). p. 289
  • In contrast, the editors of the History of Ming, the official history of the Ming dynasty completed in 1739, portrayed Empress Dowager Zhang as a supporter of Zhu Qizhen's rights.
    • According to Mao Ch'i-ling, she was the one who made the proposal, but the editors of the Ming-shih later represented her as upholding the rights of her grandson, Chu Ch'i-chen. Goodrich & Fang (1976). p. 289
  • The grand secretaries, known as the "Three Yangs" had been in their positions for many years, with Yang Pu serving as grand secretary since 1424 and the other two since 1402.
    • The grand secretaries, like Lady Chang, represented continuity with the early Ming regime. They were Three Yangs, Yang Shi-ch'i, Yang Jung, and Yang P'u, who were not related to one other, although all three came from the South. They had served together since the accession of the Hsan-te emperorin 1426, and Yang Shi'chi and Yang Jung had served succesive emperors since the beginning of the Yung-lo emperor's reign. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 306
    • On 9 September [1424], the Hung-hsi emperor reoriganized the Grand Secretariat. Huang Huai, dismissed from the Grand Secretariat in 1414, and Yang P'u, imprisonned on the same occasion, were both appointed grand secretaries. Dreyer (1982). p. 222
  • He possessed great talent, was direct, attentive, and charismatic, but over time, he became conceited.
    • He is said to have been clever, alert, and a man of considerable personnel charm. They also must have feared him as a political manipulator. After a time, certainly by the mid-1440s, he clearly began to develop a certain megalomania (hardly avoidable in the circurmstances), thinking himself to be a second Duke of Chou , arbitrarily decideding great issues of state, overriding criticism, and even wantonly killing his adversaries. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 308
  • The government attempted to assist the victims by remitting taxes in large quantities, particularly during the regency of Grand Empress Dowager Zhang, who consistently showed concern for the impoverished.
    • The government did not simply stand by passively; tax remissions on a huge scale were authorized-in the famine of 1447 1.5 million tan of tax grainwere remitted from Kiangnan alone. Moreover, the government, especcially in the period before the death of the grand empress dowager, who took a personel interest in these matters, was quick to give relief to the victims of disaster, often at great cost. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), pp. 310-311
  • The surviving land sales contracts concluded in Huizhou from 1368 to 1644 demonstrate the complex search for the most suitable currency during the early Ming period.
    • Von Glahn (1996). p. 78
  • Entrepreneurs responded to the demand for coins by producing them privately, which was illegal.
    • The resulting void in the money supply was filled by entrepreneurs who minted their own "private coin" (si-qian). Von Glahn (199). p. 83
  • During his twelve and a half months in captivity, he was treated fairly by the Oirats and returned to China as their friend.
    • In captivity for twelve and a half month, Chu Chi-chen was allowed to live and travel in his own yurt and have the service and companionship of Yuan Pin, an officer captured at the same time, and Yang Ming, an interpreter. On several occasions his captors took the ex-emperor with them on their raids inside the Great Wall, for he could demand gift for them from garrison commanders. Once Esen reminded him of this kinly treatment and asked him what torture he, Esen, would get from the Chinese had the situation been reversed. When Chu Chi-chen was returned to China, he and the Oirats parted like friends. Goodrich & Fang (1976), p. 291
  • The government remained stable in the subsequent years, with ministers and grand secretaries serving until their death or retirement.
    • The emperor's ruthless reaction to his restoration and its aftermath is tosome extent a manifestation of that strong streak of egocentric willfulness that appeared so often in the rulers of the Ming. But Ying-tsung, who wasstill only thirty when the coup unexpectedly restored him to the throne, had had experiences ample to explain his autocratic actions. He had, afterall, come to the throne as a child and lived through captivity, dethronement, and the death and subsequent denigration of his mentor Wang Chen and his supporters. He had then suffered the shame of exclusion frompublic life under his brother. It is not surprising he took strong measuresto ensure stability and his own authority. Once his brother's supporters hadbeen rooted out as enemies of the state, Ying-tsung seems to have takensteps to appoint to key positions in the administration a group of competent officials who would restabilize the court and government, while thosewho had engineered the 1457 coup on his own account had been disposedof as soon as they showed signs of exceeding their authority.After the first few months of his restoration, there was remarkably little change among the ministers and chief court officials. After 1458, no major minister was dismissed from office during the reign, and all changes in the main ministries resulted from retirement or death. The same was true of the grand secretariat where a gifted trio, Li Hsien (1408—67), P'eng Shih (1416-75), and Lu Yuan (1418-62) remained in office throughout the reign (or in Lu Yuan's case until he died in 1462). Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 341

@Borsoka: Done. Min968 (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Link "concubines" to Concubinage in China.
    • Done.
  • The father was overjoyed by his son's birth and showed him love and affection. I would move this to be the second sentence.
    • Done.
  • He also began his education in reading and writing, with his first teacher likely being the eunuch and former pedagogue, Wang Zhen. 1. Rephrase. 2. Link "eunuch" to Eunuchs in China. 3. Attribute the PoV aout Wang Zhen to a scholar.
    • Introduce Fang Chao-ying with one or two words.
      • Done.

Borsoka (talk) 03:36, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • ..., less than two month. At the time of his father's death,... Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...intervened and prevented Zhu Zhanshan's ascension... How?
    • Qick action by her daughter-in-law Empress Sun, however, resulted in the installation of Hsuan-tsung's eldest son as the Cheng-t'ung emperor. de Heer (1986) p.10
  • ...consisted of three grand secretaries... I think "consisted of the three grand secretaries" would be better.
    • Done.
  • ...—Yang Shiqi, Yang Rong, and Yang Pu—... Delete.
    • Done.
  • The eunuch Wang Zhen... Delete "The eunuch".
    • Done.
  • ...and the secretaries having to take his opinions into account Rephrase.
    • Done.
    • ..., resulting in an increase in his power and the grand secretaries having to consider his opinions Rephrase to avoid participle.
  • I would delete the Chinese characters from the article.
    • In my opinion, there is no need to remove the Chinese characters from the article; they are useful for looking up characters or events that do not have separate articles on Wiki. When I read the documents, I had a lot of difficulty finding information about the characters because their pinyin transcriptions were quite similar or were transcribed using Wade-Giles. Additionally, you can refer to the writing style of the articles in the China project here.
  • While he had held back during Lady Zhang's lifetime, after her death,... Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...who manage the "three provincial offices" (civil, military, and surveillance), has taken a definitive form in the provinces. They operate in all provinces ... Why present simple and present perfect?
    • Done.
  • ...likely due to the decline in the quality of hereditary officers Attribute this PoV to a scholar.
  • The court did not forget about culture either. I would delete it.
    • Done.
  • In the third paragraph of section "Domination of Wang Zhen" that a book "was published" is mentioned at least three times. Rephrase to avoid repetition. Borsoka (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Borsoka Some of the points above are done. Min968 (talk) 04:51, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Guo River.
    • Done.
  • Even the emperor's ban on the private sale of blue-and-white porcelain in 1439, which aimed to protect the state monopoly, did not contribute to the growth of production. Rephrase.
    • Done.
  • ...(such as yellow, purple, red, green, dark blue, and light blue)... Delete.
    • Done.
  • Link Raozhou prefecture.
    • Done.
  • ...mentioned above... Delete.
    • Done.
  • Why do you think the sidebars are needed. I would integrate them into the main text.
    • Done.
  • A link to baochao?
    • Done.
  • ...(in the mid-1430s)... Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...they also did not take action to... Rephrase.
    • Done.
  • Link Shan/Shan states.
    • Done.
  • ...was captured by the Burmese state and the Ming ally of Ava... Rephrase.
  • Done.
  • Link Irrawaddy River.
    • Done.
  • ...may have led him to overestimate the strength of the Ming troops... Attribute this PoV to a scholar.
    • Done.
  • ..."de facto ruler of all Mongols"... If the quotation marks are needed, name the scholar from whose work you quote the text.
    • Done.
  • ..., according to the plans Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...this number is likely an exaggeration from a single contemporary source, as the actual number was likely much lower. Attribute this PoV to a scholar.
    • Done.
  • Introduce C. P. Fitzgerald with one or two words.
    • Done.
  • ..., Emperor Yingzong's mother,... Delete.
    • Done.
  • ..., who had been deemed a failure... Rephrase.
    • Done.
  • ...(fifth to seventh) Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...escorting the emperor... Which?
    • Who is the emperor?
      • Done.
  • Do we know why he was restored?
    • Emperor Yingzong's restoration was a result of the Jingtai Emperor's unpopularity and lack of an heir, Yingzong's confinement and the resentment of his supporters, the Jingtai Emperor's illness creating a power vacuum, and a well-organized coup by those who believed in Yingzong's rightful claim to the throne.
      • There can be little doubt that the problems arising from the succession continued to overshadow the court. The situation, difficult enough initself, had been made far worse by Ching-ti's reluctance to negotiate with the Mongols over the former emperor and his grudging acceptance of his brother's return - as well as by the series of petty actions he took against him after his return, such as refusing him permission to celebrate his birthday, to receive envoys from the Oirat, or to participate in the New Year celebrations. Although the emperor succeeded in excluding the former Ying-tsung from all public affairs and in gradually isolating him, some prominent officials, chief among them Hu Ying, the long-serving ministerof rites, had spoken out openly on behalf of the former emperor both beforeand after his return. At the same time, the terms on which Ching-ti had accepted the throne had implicitly provided that his accession was provisional, for Ying-tsung's eldest son (Chu Chien-shen, the future Hsientsung, 1447-87) had been proclaimed heir apparent at the same time asChing-ti became regent, and continued to be heir apparent after Ching-ti ascended the throne. It was thus assured that the succession would eventually revert to the legitimate line of Ying-tsung. Ching-ti, however, was determined not only to hold on to the throne,but to maintain the succession in his own line. On 20 May 1452 the emperor accepted a memorial suggesting the appointment of a new heirapparent, in spite of the opposition of his grand secretaries (who were promoted to ensure their compliance) and many prominent officials. Yingtsung's son was demoted to be Prince of I, and Ching-ti's only son, Chu Chien-chi (1440?—53), was appointed heir apparent in his place. At the same time the new heir's mother, Lady Hang, was installed as empress inplace of Ching-ti's principal consort, the empress Wang, who had been named empress in 1450. This move, blatant in its self-interest, did nothing to improve Ching-ti's popularity or prestige; and whatever advantage he may have gained was lostwhen, after little over a year, the new heir apparent died. The new empressalso died in 1456. There were no other imperial sons to serve as heir, and Ching-ti named no successor. When some officials suggested the reinstallation of the former heir apparent, Chu Chien-shen, they were imprisoned and brutally treated, several being flogged to death.These events seem to have turned dissatisfaction with the emperor into positive opposition. In the absence of strong leadership the court split intofactions, and a conspiracy to replace him came into being. Needless to saythe conspirators were not motivated solely by high ideals or by moralscruples about the emperor's conduct. The general Shih Heng, whose relations with Yii Ch'ien had steadily deteriorated since 1452, was not onlyambitious, but grasping and avaricious. His troubles with Yii had first arisenboth over his own corrupt practices and, more especially, over those of his relatives and hangers-on. Chang Yiieh, commander of the capital garrison, was his close associate. Similar ambitions held true for the eunuch general Ts'ao Chi-hsiang, who saw himself as a new Wang Chen and who was toprove extremely corrupt and untrustworthy in the years to come. He too wassurrounded by corrupt relatives and associates. Hsu Yu-chen had never forgotten that he was snubbed after T'u-mu; and he was sufficiently ambitiousto take advantage of the restive mood of the court to try to gain supreme power. There was also Yang Shan, the censor-in-chief who had brought Ying-tsung back from captivity and had never received his due reward. Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 337-338
  • ..., many of whom were innocent, such as Yu Qian Delete, or explain it. (I assume they were purged on forged charges, or something similar.)
    • Done.
  • The deposed Jingtai Emperor was likely strangled... Attribute this PoV to a scholar.
    • Done.
  • ..., the government returned to a state of calm ....and ensured the quality of officials Rephrase.
  • The government remained stable in the subsequent years, with ministers and grand secretaries serving until their death or retirement. A reference is needed.
    • Done.
  • ...from 1449 to 1457... Delete.
    • Done.
  • ...many southerners were able to advance in their careers... Why not past perfect?
    • Done.
  • ... he abolished the practice of concubines committing suicide after the deaths of the emperors Rephrase.
    • Done.
  • ...(who reigned from 1398 to 1402)... Delete.
    • Done.

Borsoka (talk) 06:07, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka Some of the points above are done. Min968 (talk) 17:19, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this interesting and well researched article. I pass it. Borsoka (talk) 01:43, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]

(
)
  • ... that Emperor Yingzong of Ming abolished the practice of concubines being forced to be buried alive with the deceased emperor?
  • Source: Hinsch, Bret (2021). Women in Ming China. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 33. ISBN 9781538152973.
  • Reviewed:
Improved to Good Article status by Min968 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Min968 (talk) 17:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC).[reply]

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