Talk:Big Boy Restaurants

Bob's name use / geography

The article reads:

Currently, "Bob's" is again used only in Southern California, and no others under the domain of Big Boy Restaurants International are permitted to use franchise names for public identity.

This prompted the following citation needed with reasoning:

Although this may have been true 30 years ago, there is nothing currently on the company's website that would imply that there is a current geographic restriction on the use of the Bob's name or if a new California location were to open if it would be allowed to use the Bob's brand

Big Boy Restaurants International owns the Bob's name and I agree that there is no geographical restriction (distinct from BBRI's exclusivity agreement with Frisch's). However the text does not say there is a geographical restriction on the name, but simply that it is only currently used in Southern California, Wian's early turf. A separate point is that other than Bob's, no name is used (i.e., allowed) with Big Boy. (When Liggett bought Big Boy, the Elias Bros. name disappeared.)

The Big Boy Franchise Agreement deals with non BBRI-owned franchise names as co-branding, which is prohibited.

I edited the article text to reduce the unintended implication you raise. -- βox73 (৳alk) 22:57, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Who is the current CEO for BBRI?

A new IP editor recently changed the name of the current CEO from Keith E. Sirois to David B. Crawford with this edit of 16:00, 23 January 2018. Unfortuately, this change fails WP:VERIFY because I'm unable to locate a citation that would support this claim. Until BBRI issues a press release, should this unsupported change be reverted? --50.195.200.161 (talk) 03:49, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@50.195.200.161: I can't find anything at The Detroit Free Press, Crains, or Bloomberg – places you'd expect such an announcement. But on his LinkedIn page, Crawford lists himself as CEO effective January 2018 and interim CEO from November. That's not reliable yet it is plausible. Big Boy continues to sink on Sirois' watch and the Burgers and Shakes operation apparently hasn't hooked any franchisees. And this is about the same amount of time Liggett gave Tony Michaels. If the CEO change happened, making this announcement doesn't bolster confidence in BBRI. Anyway, we could revert it now or perhaps give it until Monday or Tuesday. — βox73 (৳alk) 14:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@Box73: I agree that your observations are most likely correct, but there is still nothing official beyond self-published info; not a good sign for the company. If someone has too much time on their hands, that person should contact the company and suggest that they should issue a press release about their change in management and their optimism in their company's future. Sirois claimed on his LinkedIn page that he had "retired". It is plausible that Crawford could have made the Wikipedia edit himself.

Tony Michaels is a different case since he was a holdover from Elias and he may have contributed in some of the bad decisions that might have led to Elias downfall. Michaels appeared to have been making more decisions for Elias Bros. while the brothers aged and later died. Sirois was hired from the outside. (These items needs to be eventually added to the main article.)

There is no need to rush to revert, but it needs to be done eventually. Liggett might be preparing for his eventual retirement since he has been a member of the Michigan bar since 1969 (unable to include blacklisted link to www.lawyers.com/grosse-pointe-shores/michigan/robert-g-liggett-jr-739260-a/ ) and had recently sold a newspaper. When that happens, the company's days might be numbered since I was unable to find a new franchisee being mentioned during the past 5-6 years of news and many current franchisees have been choosing not to renew their franchise contracts. -- 50.195.200.161 (talk) 22:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@50.195.200.161: I totally agree that this change must be supported or reverted. And yes, Crawford or someone close to him may have made the change. I didn't think to look at Sirois' LinkedIn page, but he is 65, so retirement is quite possible. Interestingly, Crawford was promoted from the same position Michaels was.

Tony Michaels was only CEO in the final year of Elias Bros.[1] Michaels' comment that his departure "wasn't close to mutual" and the mentioned lack of store growth make me compare him and Sirois, who seems to have even a poorer record with Big Boy.[2] He didn't reproduce his performance from Checker's/Rally's.

Liggett may have passed the bar but he has never practiced law. He isn't found in Michigan's database either. I wasn't aware that he sold the newspaper.

Exactly, no franchise agreements are being signed, and most existing franchisees not signing are continuing in business without Big Boy. One said – and remember your search of 5-6 years – "[The owners] ... felt that it was the right time to move on when 'six or seven years' prior, the company told its franchisees to undertake a complete renovation if they wanted a new contract ... adding that most of the franchises appear to be making the same decision."[3] (IMO Hashim Aziz will eventually take BBRI at a discount and reunite the chain.) — βox73 (৳alk) 02:36, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@Box73: Thanks for the heads up on the extremely recent (Valentine's Day eve) Crain's Detroit article. There might be still hope for the struggling company that may yet survive considering that the company's previous "press release" is at least 2-3 years old. The lack of recent press release is sometimes a sign that company might be circling the drain and that the corporate staff might be quietly circulating their resumes among potential new employers.

For Liggett to become a (non-practicing) member of the Michigan bar in 1969, Liggett would probably need to be born during the late 1940s and would thus be in his early 70s. Although he might have another productive 15 years ahead of him, he could decide it time to start unloading some of his non-core holdings, especially if the holdings are potentially money losing.

Who was CEO of Elias Bros. before Tony Michaels? Louis Elias, the last chairman of Elias Bros., who became chairman upon the death of his brother Fred in 1993?

If you add in the list of Marriott's Big Boy division presidents after Wian until the sale of the Big Boy and the master franchise to Elias in 1987, you could have the history of the corporate leadership (i.e., CEO and/or COO) from Wian to Crawford for Big Boy which could explain how the companies change over the years and how the brand(s) grew and shrank. -- 50.195.200.161 (talk) 03:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Big Boy Japan relationship with BBRI

After Elias Bros. filed for bankruptcy, did Big Boy Japan, or its then parent Daiei, purchased the Japanese rights to the Big Boy brand? Many Japanese companies have done this in the past when the U.S. franchisor becomes insolvent since the US Bankruptcy courts would accept almost any offer that would satisfy creditors. -- 50.195.200.161 (talk) 03:39, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I've wondered about that too; I certainly have that impression but I can't find sources, pro or con. (Did they do that with Victoria Station?) — βox73 (৳alk) 14:49, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

It is hard to say what had happened with Victoria Station since the ancient newspaper articles appear to imply liquidation without explicitly mentioning it. And outright liquidation might be different since franchise agreements might be treated null and void outside the U.S.

Since there is nothing on the English language websites that mentions Big Boy Japan's (or its current parent Zensho) business relationship with BBRI, it might not hurt making e-mail contact with BBJ and/or Zensho for clarification and also ask for possible links to Japanese language web publications that can be used as a citation. Have you read the Google Translation of the Japanese Wiki Big Boy Restaurants article? I get the impression they may not be paying a franchise fee. If the appropriate refs can be found and translated, it might be interesting to translated the Japanese wiki article and have it publish on English Wikipedia as article about Big Boy Japan. (It appears that the Japanese mascot is named Bobby and has 2 sisters.) -- 50.195.200.161 (talk) 23:04, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@50.195.200.161: I considered doing the same thing and just about mentioned it in my response. (Some editors see this as OR which it isn't if they provide accessible, reliable sources.) Some material seems added to the Japanese Wikipedia article since I last saw it. I found reading the Google translation of Big Boy Japan website illuminating too. BBJ distinguishes "Big Boy" stores from "Big Boy Dining" stores but many of the same items are served at their Victoria Station stores, and they share a common website: www.bigboyjapan.co.jp. This strongly suggests to me that they own the rights. Yet in the press BBRI frequently mentions Japanese Big Boys in the number of stores.

The Japanese menu is distinct, lacking the Big Boy, Slim Jim, Brawny Lad, and all the other American items. BBJ most likely didn't start this way and I wonder if they didn't buy the rights when they changed the menu, and this happened long before the Elias bankruptcy. The Thai Big Boy quickly floundered using the American menu (and other American practices – the Thai employees wanted to go on break and eat lunch at the same time). I keep meaning to add this Thai matter.

My friend, your contributions are very constructive. Get a Wikipedia account! — βox73 (৳alk) 00:48, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

What's the difference between Bob's Big Boys in So. Cal. and Big Boy restaurants in Michigan, if anything beyond the lack of the word Bob in the Michigan chain?

When you visit the Big Boy webpage and look at the locations page, you see both tMichigan locations and So. Cal. locations listed, implying they are the same or at least closely related. While the Michigan locations omit the word Bob's from the chain's name, it's not clear they are distinctly different restaurants from the So. Cal Bob's Big Boys, sort of like the difference between Hardee's and Carl's Jr. restaurants which started as separate restaurants but have largely merged save for the name differences and some menu differences. What this article really needs is some explanation of the differences between Bob's Big Boy restaurants in So-Cal and Big Boy restaurants in Michigan. The Big Boy websites lists then as being part of the same chain just a slight name difference in the So. Cal locations. While I get the impression that the Big Boy Michigan locations are owned by separate people from the So. Cal. Bob's Big Boys, It's not clear there are really distinct differences between the two, as they are all franchise restaurants that serve similar menus. We need to clarify the relationship between the two restaurant chains in this article. Were they Big Boy Michigan restaurants once Bob's Big Boys and are they currently serving the same sport of menu or are their key differences that makes them more of a name only relationship these days? --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)--

Specialty Products Division: Salad Dressings and Sauces

@Nixols: Thank you for contributing content about the division producing Bob's Big Boy condiments. I knew that Wian's wife June created the recipe for the seasoning salt but wasn't aware of the (changing) ownership/history of the company actually making the food stuffs. Very interesting!

Because of the ballooning size of the Big Boy Restaurants article, and the association of the dressings etc. with Bob's Big Boy, my feeling is that the content as written is best placed with Bob's Big Boy (where it already also exists). The seasoning salt was widely sold by different Big Boy franchisees but I don't believe the other products were well known, if sold, by brick and mortar grocers outside of the general territories of Bob's and Elias Brothers. Frisch's Big Boy actually sells its own dressings and sauces in grocery stores proximate to its territory.

Having said that, I think the content is a valuable addition to the Bob's Big Boy article and should be elevated to a subsection of History. There is additional material that can be added such as about the frozen shrimp that Wian packaged and sold in grocery stores under the Bob's name.

This can then be mentioned and wikilinked from the Big Boy Restaurants article. (And this ballooning talk page would benefit from archiving.) — βox73 (৳alk) 00:11, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Split Big Boy Japan to separate article?

No. IMO there is too little information available about Big Boy Japan to support its own article. (Look at the scant Wikipedia article for Zensho Holdings, the parent company. This is very different from Frisch's.) There is the possibility of obtaining material published in reliable sources, from the company itself. This would not be original research but NPOV would be a potential issue. Although the Big Boy Restaurants article is ballooning out, and although Big Boy Japan is independent of Big Boy Restaurant Group, currently Big Boy Japan is best served here. — βox73 (৳alk) 03:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Wonky infobox

The infobox formatting is messed up, but I don't know what work is being done now, so will leave it be, other than this note. Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ^{╠Talk║Contribs╣} 20:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback and your kind consideration.

By "wonkiness" you probably refer to the infobox name. Because Big Boy is now regionally divided into two unrelated companies (and previously many co-branded franchises) but this article necessarily, largely treats Big Boy as a single entity (and the trademark being co-registered) it seemed less confusing to repeat the more generic "Big Boy Restaurants" along with the legal name of the greater entity, previously "Big Boy Restaurants International, Inc." and now "Big Boy Restaurant Group, Inc.".

Beyond this, how is the infobox wonky? And how do we get this article upgraded from a beginning article? It has been extensively researched, cited and illustrated, and deserves an appropriate grade.

Again, thanks — βox73 (৳alk) 06:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The named franchisees section

I love how on the section about named franchisees you can press one of the franchisee names to skip to that section! Xboxsponge15 (talk) 16:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Also Big Boy jr.

Throughout the 70's till the end of the 80's there was a Big Boy jr. Inside the Montclair Plaza in CA. The Big Boy statute was not standing but sitting on his side. 107.19.32.164 (talk) 00:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)