Jump to content

Talk:Beth Sholom Synagogue (Elkins Park, Pennsylvania)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mayan style

[edit]

I moved this here:

", one of the few architects to work in the Mayan Revival architecture style:

because there is nothing Mayan about this building and the Mayan Revival architecture was a style that ended a dozen years before this building was designed and FLW was not one to design is passe styles. Feel free to discuss this. Here. Carptrash (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Beth Sholom Congregation (Elkins Park, Pennsylvania). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:46, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Beth Sholom Congregation (Elkins Park, Pennsylvania). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by History6042 talk 02:37, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Beth Sholom Synagogue
Beth Sholom Synagogue
5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk). Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 725 past nominations.

Epicgenius (talk) 13:40, 19 May 2025 (UTC).[reply]

  • Recent expansion. QPQs have been provided. No copyvio detected and image is appropriately licensed. The facts in the hooks are verified and cited inline – I am leaning for ALT0, 5, or 6, since 1 2 and 4 are sort of reliant on the reader knowing who Frank Lloyd Wright is - and as someone not familiar with the architectural world I'm not familiar with him. Good to go anyways. Juxlos (talk) 02:07, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

[edit]
Passed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 00:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Beth Sholom Congregation (Elkins Park, Pennsylvania)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 13:13, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 07:05, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This was a very enjoyable read, I felt like I learnt about encyclopedic writing from how you presented the architecture section.

Content

  • "Beth Sholom Synagogue has hosted various activities and programs" this is too vague to be helpful I think
    • Good point, I've removed it. - EG
  • "a neighborhood that, by the next year, was home to 3,000 Jewish families." This reads as the neighborhood grew dramatically, but I don't know if it's intentional.
    • Though the Jewish population of the neighborhood it in fact grow dramatically, it didn't grow by 3,000 families in just one year; rather, this began in the 1880s. I've rephrased it - EG
  • "Cohen advocated for..." I'm not very familiar with Jewish practices. Did he get these things? If he was senior rabbi he couldn't action them? If so "enacted" would be a better term.
    • I'm not Jewish either, but yeah he enacted these. - EG
  • "Beth Sholom announced in 1926 that they would renovate..." I'm generally happy with how you use announcements, but this seems like it is unnecessary detail. Can just say they renovated for X in Y.
    • Done. - EG
  • "Upon the Beth Sholom Congregation's 10th anniversary" -> By is overused, but more appropriate than the precision of upon, even with the repetition
    • Done. - EG
  • "Congregation Beth Sholom persisted through both the Great Depression and World War II." This is implied
    • Removed. - EG
  • "from Leo Posel" cut
    • Removed. - EG
  • "Wright informally agreed to a gentlemen's agreement." clunky, redundant
    • Removed. - EG
  • "Wright showed Cohen the design in February 1954," could you explain the rabbi's reaction here? Why was he talking about the handing down of the ten commandments?
    • Basically, the synagogue was supposed to represent Mount Sinai. I've clarified this. - EG
  • "hexagonal in plan" consider linking Multiview orthographic projection#Plan or another relevant link
    • Done. - EG
  • "The plans were characterized as "strong, simple, majestic"." Clarify if this is by stakeholders or an external assessment
    • Unfortunately, the source doesn't say exactly who said that. However, I mentioned that this description was quoted in a newspaper. - EG
  • "sold tickets to book reviews" What does this mean?
    • Essentially, Cohen would review some best-selling books and invite the congregation's members to watch him do this, for a fee. I've fixed this. - EG
  • Link Taliesin West
    • Done. - EG
  • Goodwin wrote that several Philadelphia–based firms why do you attribute this? It casts doubt on Goodwin's account for the reader
    • This isn't particularly unusual, so I've removed it. - EG
  • "Additionally, other Conservative congregations around Elkins Park" why "additionally"?
    • Removed this as well. - EG
  • "the congregation had 1,300 families." This reads strangely, that it was unpopular, and then a decade later it has expanded. Do we have any idea why?
    • Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a reason for that. But other sources do mention that membership declined in the 2000s and 2010s before increasing again. I have no idea why these families would have left Beth Sholom, as the sources I found didn't mention it. - EG
  • "after three years of serving as the senior rabbi" redundant
    • Removed. - EG
  • "The congregation also began building" not sure what "also" is referring to
    • Removed. - EG
  • "The building still needed repairs" this reads confusingly. Do you mean still as in: in its nature as a building that decays? This makes the most sense, otherwise it's implying the building had long been in need of repairs and we hadn't mentioned that.
    • Yes, it was in the first sense - the building had decayed over the years and, aside from the visitor center, hadn't really been updated. - EG
  • "Shortly afterward, the firm CyArk" clarify this is for preservation or cut it
    • It was for preservation. - EG
  • "The journalist Brendan Gill cited the Unity Temple" You only identify why this is a bad comparison, can you add why he cited the temple?
    • I clarified that it was specifically the entrance that was the subject of Gill's comparison. - EG
  • "The beams form a tripod shape" I believe this is redundant, or the word tripod can be merged into the previous sentence
    • Removed. - EG
  • "symbolizing three Abrahamic patriarchs" -> "the three Abrahamic patriarchs" as the text currently implies these represent a subset of the Abrahamic patriarchs, while I understand they represent the totality
    • Done. - EG
  • "and it also evoked the shape of a tent or mountain" perhaps "mountain generally" as you have just noted it resembles a mountain
    • Done. - EG
  • "Cohen had proposed mounting a red light" do we know why?
    • I've made it more clear that "Cohen had proposed mounting a red aviation obstruction light above the roof". - EG
  • "Instead, the ark was to be made " I don't believe future tense should be used here
    • Removed the future tense. - EG
  • "Other ancient Israeli artifacts." Which of the prior objects are "ancient Israeli artifacts"?
    • I removed "other". - EG
  • evocative of priests' hands. I think this needs to be clarified further. He is referring to Priesthood (ancient Israel) rather than a contemporary concept
    • Done. EG
  • I don't have access to the sources right now, but do they claim the Steel Cathedral influenced the work, or shared an influence?

Suggestions:

  • "used as a school and auditorium building" I am unsure this is correct: used as an auditorium building? Clunky to my ears
    • That structure was both a school and an auditorium. I've fixed this. - EG
  • Potential links: Vestibule (architecture) and Safety glass for wire glass
    • Done. - EG
  • sending Wright the sketches... close repetition of "sketches" in succession here
    • Condensed. - EG
  • I would like to see at least once how much it cost in today's money, as early as possible so the reader can contextualize the figures being thrown around
    • I can do this in a bit. - EG
  • I would love a chart of membership over time, although I understand it doesn't line up with the aesthetics of your articles
    • It's all right, I could figure out a way to add this. Unfortunately, membership stats aren't published in the news with any regularity; they're mentioned in sources every now and then, so this can be a little spotty. - EG
  • Flagging that you describe the address as Pennsylvania, United States in #Building but in the earlier #History simply introduce North Philadelphia
    • The original synagogue (the one mentioned in #History) was in North Philly, while the current synagogue (#Building) is in a suburb of Philly. - EG
      • I'm more identifying that it seems backwards to identify that we are in the United States later in the article rather than at the start, if such an identification is considered necessary. I don't really think it's an issue, but I wanted to just note it in case you cared about that kind of thing. - RIHG
        • Fair enough. I can add the country to the History section as well. - EG
  • A little bit of overciting, which is a bit distracting. For instance, does "Each beam is decorated with seven menorah-style lamps" need three references?
    • I will try to condense this later in the week. - EG
  • The two layers of panels
    • Done. - EG
  • Other events over the years have included
    • Done. - EG
  • "The synagogue's events have attracted" the "attracted" framing reads as a bit promo, perhaps "have attended" could be used?
    • Done. - EG
  • "who heretofore had lagged behind members of other faiths" I think this can be touched up to avoid making a normative claim
    • I think it would be easier to just get rid of it to avoid such a sweeping generalization, which I've done. - EG
  • In the commentary section, almost all the Jews who are quoted don't like it. Can you speak more generally to this?
    • Actually, the commentary section does include praise from some of these Jewish sources, such as the Wisconsin Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish Exponent. I think Kaufmann may technically also count as Jewish (definitely by ancestry, if not by faith), though he was speaking only from an architectural point of view, not from a religious point of view. - EG
  • "helped mitigate the centrifugal force of suburban growth" I would put this in your own words to make the meaning more immediately apparent
    • Done. - EG
  • "Wright biographer Joseph Siry wrote an essay" if this is only sourced to a primary source I would cut it
    • This is actually a review of the essay, not the essay itself. - EG

References

[edit]

Working from this revision:

  • [20] Magenta clockclock Strangely my TWL account won't let me access this article.
  • [21] Green tickY
  • [40], [41], [100], [120], [121], [260], [261], [262] Magenta clockclock Also not in my TWL
    • If you would like me to send over the scans of the sources, please email me and I can send them on Thursday. It is not possible to send attachments using Special:EmailUser (which I'm sure is to prevent spam, but also prevents easy spot checking unfortunately). - EG
      • That's okay, I was more concerned that it might be an issue with my TWL account. I'm happy with the spotcheck's results, I only have the two points below that I would like to see actioned. - RIHG
  • [42] Green tickY
  • [60a] Magenta clockclock I'm not really seeing this explicitly in the text. Could you point this out?
    • I have no idea how "the leaders didn't conduct a thorough investigation into the architectural styles theoretically available to them" turned into that. I've removed it. - EG
  • [80a] Magenta clockclock I would like more on that this was not the complete payment.
  • [101] Green tickY
  • [122] Green tickY
  • [140] Green tickY
  • [160] Green tickY
  • [180] Green tickY
  • [200] Green tickY
  • [220] Green tickY
  • [240] Green tickY
  • [262] Green tickY
  • [280] Green tickY

Other

[edit]
  • Images all appropriately tagged, captioned Green tickY
  • No COPYVIO / OR Green tickY
  • Neutral Green tickY
  • Stable Green tickY

Broad in its coverage

[edit]

I would like to hear you speak on your thinking here. The article obviously covers two subjects, the Congregation and the Beth Sholom Synagogue. I am generally against doing this for weight reasons. I'm sure you have navigated the issue of weight in writing the article. I'll start with the low-hanging fruit: #Commentary and impact should be renamed. It's not commentary and impact on the Congregation, the subject of the article, but of the building. Onto the weight issue, there's three ways I see this being resolved:

  • The article is kept in one piece at the title Beth Sholom Congregation. The discussion of the building is either determined to be given too much weight, and condensed, or determined to be given appropriate weight, and retained.
  • The article is kept in one piece at the title Beth Sholom Synagogue. The #Early congregational history is worked into a background section, and #Staff and notable members & #Services and programs are put in a #Use section or equivalent. The history is reworked to be oriented around how it is relevant to the building. It may involve a reduction in content on the Congregation if this is determined to be undue weigh
  • Content on the building is split out of this article, and per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE the split article is summarized here at the parent article.

Based off the main sources the article relies on (e.g. National Park Service, Goodwin, Gill...), I believe the best approach for apportioning appropriate weight would be the second. I think the third would resolve the scope issue, but it would involve heavy duplication of history across both articles. This may be bad or good, depending on your perspective: bad as a reader is unlikely to read both histories, not reading all the information currently contained in the article, but good as the reader gets a more focused account of what they are interested in, either the Congregation or the Synagogue.

As I said, I want to hear your thinking on this, and whether you think there is indeed an issue. If we don't reach an agreement, I'm happy to put it to a 2O to see if any other editors who are not me sees an issue. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 06:44, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rollinginhisgrave, good point, and I agree. It's hard to write about synagogue/congregation articles because in theory these are two separate topics, but in most cases the building only exists due to the congregation and is generally kept in the same article as a result. This is the case here, but due to the unusual circumstances (i.e. the synagogue being world-famous almost entirely due to its design), I would say this article really should be about the synagogue and not the congregation. It's just that the congregation title was the one that was originally used. The synagogue is the topic that's most well known because of its relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright. Your second option would line up with what is done for other synagogue articles, so I'll work on that shortly. Epicgenius (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks EG. Not sure if you've finished this or are just pausing, ping me to confirm you're done and I'll take a look over. - RIHG
No problem. Yeah that was a pause - I have no access to my computer until later this week, but will definitely ping you then. - EG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epicgenius (talk • contribs) 02:00, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. I'm gonna work on this over the weekend. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:39, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rollinginhisgrave, sorry about the delay again, but I forgot about this. I've added the inflation figures, and I think I've addressed everything else. Please let me know if I missed anything. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Epicgenius for the delay. I'd still like to see some more rescoping, for example:

  • "Beth Sholom Synagogue is a Conservative Jewish congregation and synagogue" → "Beth Sholom Synagogue is a Conservative Jewish synagogue at 8231..."
  • "Established in North Philadelphia in 1919," the reader will problematically think this refers to the synagogue, you can introduce the congregation better or frame it around the Synagogue and discuss the congregation separately.
  • "The main synagogue" is there a secondary synagogue? Should this be main sanctuary?
  • The second paragraph should lead in with a signpost of how it relates to the congregation, e.g. "The Beth Sholom synagogue was the second synagogue of the congregation. The congregation was founded in 1917 with..."
  • Date established in the infobox should be amended

Some more edits like this to the lead and I'm happy to pass, the body is generally fine. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 01:18, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rollinginhisgrave, thanks for the commentary. I've adjusted the lead a bit to hopefully remedy these concerns, re-framing it around the synagogue building itself. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:12, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, sorry this review has taken a while. Passing. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | contributions) 00:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Beth_Sholom_Synagogue_(Elkins_Park,_Pennsylvania)&oldid=1297067781"