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Democratic Autonomous Administration

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In a previous section it was mentioned that the AANES changed its official name to the DAANES (D for Democratic). And it has seen usage from media too (such has this https://hawarnews.com/en/daa-calls-on-un-to-provide-support-for-displaced-people). I suggest those that can edit the page do so with the new added word Remikipedia (talk) 05:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should go further and move the article to Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria. Charles Essie (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Entirely agree

Requested move 15 January 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. I will attempt to move related articles as long as I don't find any controversy, otherwise I will comment below the discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) ASUKITE 15:21, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria → Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria – The new social contract (~constitution) https://rojavainformationcenter.org/2023/12/aanes-social-contract-2023-edition/ uses the name DAANES rather than AANES, I see no reason to adopt the convention that has started to be used by most official sources from Rojava as well as some Western media since it is the name they use to refer to themselves and it is not controversial in itself. 2A01:CB04:6B1:FB00:2C28:A95B:AE10:E785 (talk) 14:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Move. As the polity itself and reliable secondary sources appear to be consistently using this new variant, I think it's probably a good move to align the article with that. Does anyone here know when this new name was adopted (i.e. when "Democratic" was appended to "AANES")? --Grnrchst (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Charles Essie and Remikipedia: Courtesy ping. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria/AANES still gets some use in the past month ([1][2][3]), but a lot of sources do seem to include Democratic too. Not sure how to tease the numbers apart. CMD (talk) 11:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support and I would advise that we move all related articles as well, such as Constitution of the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria and Human rights in the AANES. Charles Essie (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is accurate to the official name according to its own organs as well as local and related press. I think the reason why AANES is still used in other medias is because of its continued usage on Wikipedia and the lack of wide-scale publication of the changes. Remikipedia (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Asukite The following articles still reflect old naming conventions. If you are not comfortable moving some or any of them, I can start a separate RM for the remaining articles. I believe the move discussions found in below sections show that these other names (DAANES, North and East Syria, and Rojava) should not be used in article titles.

DAANES / AANES:
North and East Syria (NES):
Rojava:
Yeoutie (talk) 13:55, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Kurdification"

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The introductory text is the most important part of an article simply because that's what'll be read the most.

I note that the following sentence is in the article: "The region's administration has also been accused by partisan and non-partisan sources of authoritarianism, media censorship, forced disappearances, support of the Ba'athist regime, Kurdification, and displacement."

The 'Kurdification' section has no source and the next citation is a UN report that explicitly clears (or, at the very least, finds no evidence of) ethnic cleansing or even discrimination on ethnic grounds by the SDF. And I quote:

"93. Though allegations of “ethnic cleansing” continued to be received during the period under review, the Commission found no evidence to substantiate claims that YPG or SDF forces ever targeted Arab communities on the basis of ethnicity, nor that YPG cantonal authorities systematically sought to change the demographic composition of territories under their control through the commission of violations directed against any particular ethnic group."

While there has thus been the 'accusation' of Kurdification, it seems that there is no significant evidence that there has been any attempt to engineer a demographic displacement or to enact displacements *on an ethnic basis*. Although it is not technically inaccurate to say there has been an accusation, I feel it is misleading to say that this particular claim has the same level of credence as those that surround it (e.g., displacement on non-ethnic grounds, which is unambiguously true and accepted by all sources-and not even denied by the AANES/SDF itself, who naturally claim it is borne from military necessity). When we write these accusations in the introductory section of the article without rebutting them when they are without a factual basis, it falsely gives a level of credibility to the claims that, in truth, do not exist. This is especially true when the most forceful claim comes from the Turkish Government, and the second comes from a source which seems to be down at the moment (the article in question was never archived) and may well have been down for quite some time. The only serious claim thus comes from Amnesty, but I think it is fair to say that the allegations of Kurdification/ethnic cleansing themselves have been largely rebutted by non-partisan, authoritative bodies (namely, the UN). No serious claims from authoritative, non-partisan sources have been made since that one singular Amnesty article, all the way back in 2015, which has since been found to be false.


I mean any group or polity will have some sort of frivolous claims against them, and I don't think they need to be included in the article heading if they're without a strong factual basis. To use a slightly more extreme/obvious example, we wouldn't write "Jewish people have been accused of controlling all the banks" or whatever on the introduction to the 'Jewish People' page, even if some Nazis say that. The general principle remains the same: unsupported "allegations" simply should not have this place in an article. For more contentious things where there are arguments both ways (e.g., forced disappearances) it's perhaps a bit more reasonable, but Kurdification (that is, ethnic cleansing and/or demographic re-engineering) is completely baseless.


Honestly I'd say the same for the whole thing about siding with the Ba'athists, but that's for another discussion.

As such, I think I am inclined to remove this word as it discredits the article any more than other discredited conspiracies would on other articles if they were taken seriously in the introduction. I wont do so immediately, though I will if there are no meaningful contentions to doing so in the next few days. LevatorScapulaeSyndrome (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have received no disagreements so I am now removing it (though it has since been moved out of the introductory text anyhow). LevatorScapulaeSyndrome (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind I lack permissions. Someone else should do it in the mean time. LevatorScapulaeSyndrome (talk) 15:07, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
See: Kurdification#Syria for details on this exact subject; I have added sources from that article to this one to support the claim. Yeoutie (talk) 00:13, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for adding some proper sources. Regardless of the agreeability of the claim (I don't think it holds much water, but that's besides the point) there are now proper sources demonstrating the accusations. I appreciate the work you've done. LevatorScapulaeSyndrome (talk) 08:46, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 March 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus against the proposed move. Alternative titles were put forward (Rojava, North and East Syria, and AANES) but there was no clear consensus if any of those were more desirable. (closed by non-admin page mover) Cremastra talk 17:07, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria → DAANES – per WP:CONCISE, the current name is too long, and on my Vector 2022 skin, it is taking two lines, making some content a scroll below. The new name would follow the format of articles like UNESCO, UNICEF, etc. 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:29, 29 March 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 21:00, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support since 60 letters is quite long, though would this name change affect articles like Constitution of the Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria? Asclepias tuberosa (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support but have we thought of just Rojava? It is certainly the common name, and gives consistency with Rojava conflict. 🐔 Chicdat  Bawk to me! 23:38, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedians already went over this years ago. The consensus was no, because Rojava is the Kurdish term for Western Kurdistan whereas the DAANES rules over land not traditionally considered part of Western Kurdistan and if I recall correctly the population the SDF/SDC rules over is in fact majority Arab. The fact the polity itself explicitly prefers DAANES should also be taken account. Sisuvia (talk) 04:34, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Against the move. UNICEF and UNESCO are known primarily by their acronyms. I don't think the same can be said here unless you have evidence suggesting otherwise? Personal opinion is that it's fine as it is. Sisuvia (talk) 04:38, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Abo Yemen: I think that would be worse in my opinion than DAANES or AANES. The term "Rojava" only refers to Kurdish majority areas, and shouldn't be used for reasons stated above, especially when it isn't used to refer to the polity but only really parts of the north. In my view the "Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" is a decent name even if in my view the "Democratic" does not need to be there. Des Vallee (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If we are to include "Autonomous Administration" then there's no reason why we should not also include "Democratic", as that is the polity's official title. Otherwise we might as well just name the page North and East Syria. Sisuvia (talk) 16:51, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Sisuvia: As mentioned above however that is not the name used in English, not even by AANES institutions. Des Vallee (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also statements by Sisuvia is correct UNESCO and UNICEF are known by their acronym's not by their name. This can't be stated on the AANES/DAANES. As for the length there are longer article titles out there, and two lines doesn't break with formatting. Des Vallee (talk) 15:58, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative move to North and East Syria: Per the argument that @Thespoondragon made in the 2020 requested move for this article. –Gluonz talk contribs 04:18, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Gluonz You don't think there's a risk of it being too general and confusing as a result? Sisuvia (talk) 16:59, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Sisuvia: Most likely, it would not be confused with any other topic, and this name has significant use in sources per the aforementioned requested-move discussion. –Gluonz talk contribs 19:32, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per @Des Vallee's opinion. 🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk · contribs) 05:41, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: As much as a more concise title would be nice, it seems to me, based on the discussion so far, that there isn't one that is precise enough and common enough to be suitable. Cheers, RadiculousJ (talk) 18:43, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: As others have noted, examples like UNESCO & UNICEF fail as a good comparison as sources covering Syria very rarely, if ever, just throw around DAANES as the name of the administration in the Northeast of the country. Furthermore, no wikipedia rule states that just because a title is two lines, or 60 characters, long it is disqualifying. This page is much shorter than many, many other articles (including the world record and others, which I found interesting while searching for applicable wiki rules). While WP:CONCISE policies do favor "brevity" this consideration must be "balanced...with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the general subject area." An article name like DAANES fails to take in such a balance in my view. Yeoutie (talk) 23:01, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also caution against a move to Rojava, or anything like it, unless the same concerns raised in that move discussion back in 2020 are resolved. Yeoutie (talk) 23:06, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to North and East Syria: the title is a bit chunky as it is for a lot of readers, there does not really even seem to be a consensus on what the name is as I primarily still see AANES online. All news sources in the last week are still showing 'Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria'. Renaming the article North and East Syria simplifies the name, prevents confusion and makes it easier to access - unless we consider a disambiguation page. Ecpiandy (talk) 12:01, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not a commonly recognizable abbreviation so this is a situation where using the full name is preferable Chessrat (talk, contributions) 12:16, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: DAANES is simply not recognisable so it would make little to no sense to change the page name to this. Lord Beesus (talk) 17:29, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose definitely not recognizable, slight support for AANES Waleed (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, we really should be calling this article Rojava instead. I dunno what I am (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 April 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 00:51, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria → North and East Syria – WP:COMMONNAME per the ngrams (the current name is too big that it is not allowed to be searched for on the ngrams) and is a WP:CONCISE version of both the current name of the article and the "Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" name 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 17:28, 6 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 00:25, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support for "Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria," North and East Syria can cause some confusion to it's reference, the polity or the region. and in English AANES is the most common name used per previous discussion. Des Vallee (talk) 05:03, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To make clear also I oppose "North and East Syria" due to possible confusion on it's name. Des Vallee (talk) 16:59, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose: I think that the proposed name falls short on the WP:CRITERIA of recognizability and precision. The current article name makes it clear that the article is talking about the polity, while North and East Syria sounds more like an approximate geographical area like Southern Italy or Southwestern Ontario. Furthermore, I don't think the Ngram data would be conclusive in proving a WP:COMMONNAME, given that many instances of North and East Syria will be occurring within instances of the longer name. Tomiĉo (talk) 10:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: the title is a bit chunky as it is for a lot of readers, there does not really even seem to be a consensus on what the name is as I primarily still see AANES online. All news sources in the last week are still showing 'Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria'. Renaming the article North and East Syria simplifies the name, prevents confusion and makes it easier to access - unless we consider a disambiguation page. Ecpiandy (talk) 10:54, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Ecpiandy: Do you support "Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" or "North and East Syria," as they are two separate names. Des Vallee (talk) 18:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Tomiĉo's argument. Sisuvia (talk) 12:39, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose too vague and ambiguous 𐤌𐤋𐤊 Waleed (🗽) 06:31, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: for consideration of the alternatives proposed above. – robertsky (talk) 00:25, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Abo Yemen, Des Vallee, Tomiĉo, Ecpiandy, Sisuvia, M Waleed: Pinging everyone else that has already contributed, to try and generate more discussion. RadiculousJ (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think Rojava (autonomous region) is good enough 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 18:51, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 April 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 13:24, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria → Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria – As far as I can see, all sources are still using AANES. I'm not sure where this 'Democratic' in the name has came from, and if it is a change that has indeed happened it certainly is not the WP:COMMONNAME. Ecpiandy (talk) 23:24, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: if you read the section on the polity's name and translations you would know where the "Democratic" came from. Sisuvia (talk) 00:54, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per above, it's the common name used to refer to the polity, in press and otherwise. Des Vallee (talk) 03:35, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per WP:NAMECHANGES, scholarly sources have been using the new name routinely, with 26 results on Google Scholar since the change in December 2023. I think this should be revisited in a while when a more long-term use of names can be established. This is the fourth move request of the year, after two sequential move requests have already failed to establish consensus for a move from the new name. As this is the new name as established in the 2023 constitution, I think we should continue to use this unless a clear consensus can be established for long-term usage of one variant or another. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The proposed title is clearer, more neutral, and better reflects general usage. The current name leans toward a specific political narrative. Zemen  (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:MODERNPLACENAME and WP:COMMONNAME – Please not another round of this, let's call the entity what it calls itself. AntonSamuel (talk) 23:07, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose proposed name. I don't think this is the best proposed title. We can either go with the self-given, official name, or we can go with the common name. The self-given official name is Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, which is admittedly a mouthful and almost certainly fails WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME, but does at least past WP:AUTONYM (if that applies here). The only common name is Rojava. I would recommend anyone who'd like to see the name shortened speedily close this and propose Rojava instead per COMMONNAME and CONCISE, as that's the only alternative that makes sense in my opinion. Yes, I understand the reasons why some editors would object to Rojava and would prefer the official name - I'd like to see those disagreements hashed out in a focused discussion. And I sympathize with the editors who are exhausted from all the discussions above; it's a shame that there have already been four move discussions this year, and all of them (except the move to the current title) were dead on arrival as their proposed titles were neither the official name nor the common name. But if we're going to have a discussion about the merits of a proposed title, that is the one we should be discussing.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:14, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peer review

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Democratic Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review


I've listed this article for peer review because I want to bring this article to FAC in the near future.

Thanks, 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 17:51, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Grnrchst

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@LunaEclipse: Hey there! Good to see you're looking to improve this. I'll give some more detailed notes soon, but for now a couple things immediately stick out:

  • The "History" section gives an absurd amount of over-contextualisation. Half of it is recounting history before the polity was even established; much of this is also based on sources that were written years or even decades before the polity was established, so its relevance to the DAANES is entirely unclear. I'd recommend a drastic trimming of this and rewriting it based on books that are actually about the DAANES, which will give us a clearer picture of what early history is clearly relevant to the subject.
    • I agree; I do think we could remove a lot of info from that section, but I think some (limited) background on the Assad regime's Arabification and persecution of the Kurds and their culture in conjunction with the PKK and its insurgency might give the reader understanding on why this area exists. 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 12:14, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of this article is based on news reports, rather than scholarly journal articles or books (despite an abundance of such sources on the subject). Some amount of reliance on news reports is inevitable due to the ongoing nature of this subject, but they should only be used when there is no better alternative. We should not still be citing news reports from a decade ago, there is absolutely a better alternative to be found for these.
  • The lead section is far too small for such a lengthy article and does not adequately summarise the scope of the article, instead providing a grab-bag of snapshots about the subject. It needs rewriting and expanding.

I'll have a more thorough read of the article soon and get back to you with more comments. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:38, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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