Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida

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This article was nominated for deletion on 15 September 2024. The result of the discussion was withdrawn.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Moved to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida, 15 September 2024, see discussion.
Not moved, 26 December 2024, to Alleged assassination attempt of Donald Trump in Florida, see discussion.

Requested move 26 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 15:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida → Alleged assassination attempt of Donald Trump in Florida – "Alleged" is commonly used in news reports about the suspect to describe this event as an "alleged assassination attempt" or the suspect as an "alleged" or "accused" assassin. Until we get a court decision on the case (now pushed back to September 2025), I think that should be reflected in the article title per WP:NDESC and WP:ALLEGED. ^Falling_Gravity 18:16, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - seems to make sense considering the suspect here is alive and on trial, whereas the PA attempt the suspect was killed. Proposed title better satisfies WP:NPOV concerns for WP:BLP. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- There is nothing “alleged” about this. There is evidence of a planned killing. So this should not even be a debate. 2600:1702:5870:5930:0:0:0:3C (talk) 02:00, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per 2600. InterDoesWiki (talk) 23:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Estar8806—blindlynx 02:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Estar8806. cookie monster 755 03:07, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like "assassination attempt of" makes it sound like Trump did it. I don't have any opinion on the alleged bit but the flipping of the words makes it less clear. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct. If it is to be moved (no opinion here), Alleged attempt to assassinate Donald Trump in Florida. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Looks like most of the sources do not used alleged and just say attempted. So that looks like the common name. PackMecEng (talk) 19:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Adding "alleged" is just unnecessary semantics. Everyone knows what happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrendonJH (talk • contribs) 14:36, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Until Routh is convicted, we must describe him as a suspect, but we don't need to describe an assassination attempt that clearly happened as alleged. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 12:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If the suspect is innocent, which we must presume per WP:BLPCRIME, then can we really say an assassination attempt "clearly happened"? Nobody here knows how he will be convicted except those with a crystal ball. I think it's analogous to how we already treat articles covered by WP:KILLINGS. ^Falling_Gravity 23:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Reliable sources supporting "alleged assassination attempt" include NBC News, ABC News, Politico (twice), The Independent, Tallahassee Democrat, and WESH. ^Falling_Gravity 23:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Routh is a suspect and we should describe as one until convicted. But the assassination attempt clearly happened hence it should not be described as alleged.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 07:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Gold standard sources don't use the term "alleged" for the incident, including AP with headline Trial of man accused in Trump assassination attempt in Florida pushed back to September, UPI with headline In Trump attempted assassination, Florida files attempted murder charges, and The New York Times with headline A Second Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump. Perhaps the other sources were written earlier when the circumstances were less clear, but I don't think we have to tiptoe around this. ☆ Bri (talk) 04:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Headlines aren't sources. The Times article does not put the claim in their own voice (they cite federal officials), the UPI phrases it as an accusation, and the AP phrases it as accusations and charges. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 05:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The word "Attempted" implies an action that was discovered/supported by the facts. It was clearly an attempt. "Alleged" applies to the defendant's guilt or innocence in a court of law. 149.75.145.229 (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As others have noted, WP:BLPCRIME applies to the suspect, but the current title doesn't reference the suspect at all. The event itself is confirmed to have happened. A case could be made that the precise nature of the crime is yet to be ascertained by a court, but RS call it an assassination attempt so it's the apparent common name of the event, as covered in the September 2024 RM. The current title is also consistent with other articles on similar events like Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, Attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II, and of course, Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 04:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Alleged"

It seems very strange to describe the assassination attempt as simply "alleged" in the lead. If there are enough RS to support this article being titled "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida", then we shouldn't need alleged in the lead. And if the RS say that it is alleged, the title shouldn't be so unqualified. ~ HAL333 15:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RS I added to the article supports "alleged assassination attempt" (Politico). More recent reporting by The Independent confirms this, and it also falls in line with WP:ALLEGED. I believe the current title less about what RS say and more the result of the previous title being about a 'shooting' even though no shots were fired. ^Falling_Gravity 22:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so earlier I proposed changing the title to include "alleged" to make this more clear, but it was closed because people claimed it "clearly happened" without providing sources, while all of the actual reliable sources hedge it as an allegation or accusation. So I've just added it back to the main article citing ABC News, which says both "alleged assassination attempt against Trump" and "alleged attempted assassination". ^Falling_Gravity 21:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly a couple more recent sources back up "alleged assassination attempt":

USA Today: "Moody said when Routh fled north into Martin County following his alleged assassination attempt, a crash that happened during his apprehension severely injured the girl."

Fox News: "Routh allegedly lay in wait for more than 12 hours in the brush with a rifle on the perimeter of the Trump International Golf Club."

^Falling_Gravity 05:30, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Newsweek: "last year's second alleged assignation attempt on then-former President Donald Trump."

CBS News: "the alleged assassination attempt against Mr. Trump during a Sept. 15 golf outing"

^Falling_Gravity 06:38, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Section on the son

At the moment, this article has a separate section regarding an arrest of the suspsect's son. I have two concerns about this. One is in regard to our guidelines on discussing accusations of crime against living people. At this point, the son has not been convicted, and he does not seem to be independently notable, so those guidelines would point to not including the information. The other is that it's rather tertiary to the topic of this article, which is an article about an event. The son is not the event, nor a person actually involved in the event. The charges are not related to the event. And while the crime he stands accused of is heinous, it is sadly common, not something that we would cover on its own. I would like to delete this section. Any objection? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:37, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's more relevant to the Ryan Routh article. ^Falling_Gravity 00:44, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]