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Hinduism: Shaivism

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Aghoris - a Hindu sect

@Gawaon: This is in reference to this revert, "not needed (sea of blue)"- You are partly correct that I should not have wikilinked a common term like Hindu, "as Shaivism is clear enough," - No it is not clear enough , Wikipedia articles have a global scope, "a monastic order of ascetic Shaivite sadhus based in Uttar Pradesh, India" is not very clear , you cannot expect a reader from across the globe to know what " Shaivite sadhu" is. "plus "Hindu" is repeatedly mentioned in the following paragraphs" - This is incorrect , the lead states the practices are contradictory to orthodox Hinduism, which is true but hinduism itself is a mere umbrella term which also includes Aghoris^[1], in addition most WP:SCHOLARLY and WP:TERTIARY sources recognise them as a part of Hinduism, that's why they are featured in dictionaries and encyclopaedias concerning Hinduism. See the sources I have attached below.

Walker, B. (2019). "KĀPĀLIKĀ". Hindu World: An Encyclopedic Survey of Hinduism. In Two Volumes. Volume I A-L. Routledge Library Editions: Hinduism. Taylor & Francis. p. 571-72. ISBN 978-0-429-62421-6. Retrieved 2025-01-18. - Dedicated to Kāpālikā, the Hindu tradition this sect belongs to.
Long, J.D. (2020). "Aghori". Historical Dictionary of Hinduism. Historical Dictionaries of Religions, Philosophies, and Movements Series. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. p. 34. ISBN 978-1-5381-2294-5. Retrieved 2025-01-18.
Kapoor, S. (2004). "Aghori or Aghoraphanti". A Dictionary of Hinduism: Including Its Mythology, Religion, History, Literature, and Pantheon. Cosmo Publications. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7755-874-6. Retrieved 2025-01-18.

Some peer reviewed journals describing Aghoris:

Blamberger, Günter; Kakar, Sudhir (2018). "Afterlife and Fertility in Varanasi". In Kakar Katharina (ed.). Imaginations of death and the beyond in India and Europe. Singapore: Springer. p. 198. doi:10.1007/978-981-10-6707-5_12. ISBN 978-981-10-6707-5. The Aghori,40 the most ferocious and feared ascetics known in Hindu culture,
Maurer, Bill (2012). "Credit between Cultures: Farmers, Financiers, and Misunderstanding in Africa" (PDF). American Anthropologist. 114 (1): 167–168. doi:10.1111/j.1548-1433.2011.01413_11.x. ISSN 0002-7294. Retrieved 2025-01-18. No other Hindu sect is as notorious as the Aghori
Nitasha Sharma, Jillian Rickly, ed. (2021-04-02). "'The smell of death and the smell of life': authenticity, anxiety and perceptions of death at Varanasi's cremation grounds". Authenticity and Authentication of Heritage. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003130253. ISBN 978-1-003-13025-3. The second is a death-related ritual practiced by a group of ascetics, known as the Aghoris. This small sect of Hindu ascetics are rigid renouncers and worshippers of the Hindu deity, Shiva.

Proposal: Restore word "Hindu" before either "monastic order" or " ascetic Shaivite sadhus based in Uttar Pradesh, India" in the lead.

Thanks, - Ratnahastin (talk) 05:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, like I said I don't think it's needed because the word "Shaivite" is already there, and Shaivism is a branch of Hinduism. We don't have to precede that with "Hindu" just like we usually write just "Catholic" instead of "Christian Catholic". As for the rest of the lead, it states that they make objects related to "Shiva and other Hindu deities" and their "practices are sometimes considered contradictory to orthodox Hinduism", implying that they are non-orthodox Hindus – which seems true enough. Gawaon (talk) 16:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If scholarly sources characterise them as Hindus,then it is worth mentioning in lead. "Shaivism is a branch of Hinduism" - That's not made clear in the lede, is it? ""practices are sometimes considered contradictory to orthodox Hinduism", implying that they are non-orthodox Hindus" - We should be unambiguous in lead, like the sources are when describing them as Hindus, this wording may be misconstrued by readers to think that they are not Hindus, if they are not familiar with the fact that Hinduism is an umbrella term and not a well defined religion. - Ratnahastin (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Of course they are Hindus, that is not the dispute. But, for example, we describe the Pope as Catholic, without explaining that Catholicism is a Christian church. Should we fix that too? But if you insist that "Hindu" should be in the first sentence, I won't object. I think a placement before "monastic order" is better since the other place has already so many modifiers clustered together. I also don't think it needs to be linked there, to avoid the "sea of blue" effect and since a link follows a bit later anyway. Gawaon (talk) 02:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. - Ratnahastin (talk) 02:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

^
Barrett, Ronald L. (2008-03-04). "Introduction". Aghor Medicine. Berkeley: Univ of California Press. p. 10-11. ISBN 978-0-520-94101-4. The term Hindu originally described a broad range of ethnicities and localities: those northern Indian communities that have geographic or cultural associations with the Indus Valley (von Stietencron 1997). The term was institutionalized during the Mughal Empire to describe non-Muslim subjects whose beliefs did not fit into any other clearly labeled religious category. Hindus were thus defined by what they were not; they were non-Christian, non-Parsi, non-Jain, and so on. During the latter half of the nineteenth century, Hinduism consoli-dated into a rallying point for national identity within emerging inde-pendence movements. It was strongly linked to pan-Indian (but still non-Muslim) religious revivals and reforms. It also satisfied Western ori-entalists' desire for a neatly delineated topic of study. These agendas informed the reification of Hinduism as a single world religion, despite its myriad beliefs and traditions. They also informed the revision and syndication of Hindu histories through the lenses of more recently pop-ular ideologies (Thapar 1997; Inden 1990).
- See the review of this work by Singh (2013) Singh, Sheena (2013-10-01). ": Aghor Medicine: Pollution, Death, and Healing in Northern India. Ron Barrett". Transforming Anthropology. 21 (2): 208–209. doi:10.1111/traa.12015_8. ISSN 1051-0559. the Aghori, a controversial sect of Hindu ascetics

[1] Barrett, Ronald L. (2008-03-04). "Introduction". Aghor Medicine. Berkeley: Univ of California Press. p. 10-11. ISBN 978-0-520-94101-4. The term Hindu originally described a broad range of ethnicities and localities: those northern Indian communities that have geographic or cultural associations with the Indus Valley (von Stietencron 1997). The term was institutionalized during the Mughal Empire to describe non-Muslim subjects whose beliefs did not fit into any other clearly labeled religious category. Hindus were thus defined by what they were not; they were non-Christian, non-Parsi, non-Jain, and so on. During the latter half of the nineteenth century, Hinduism consoli-dated into a rallying point for national identity within emerging inde-pendence movements. It was strongly linked to pan-Indian (but still non-Muslim) religious revivals and reforms. It also satisfied Western ori-entalists' desire for a neatly delineated topic of study. These agendas informed the reification of Hinduism as a single world religion, despite its myriad beliefs and traditions. They also informed the revision and syndication of Hindu histories through the lenses of more recently pop-ular ideologies (Thapar 1997; Inden 1990).
See the review of this work by Singh (2013) Singh, Sheena (2013-10-01). ": Aghor Medicine: Pollution, Death, and Healing in Northern India. Ron Barrett". Transforming Anthropology. 21 (2): 208–209. doi:10.1111/traa.12015_8. ISSN 1051-0559. the Aghori, a controversial sect of Hindu ascetics

[2] See the review of this work by Singh (2013) Singh, Sheena (2013-10-01). ": Aghor Medicine: Pollution, Death, and Healing in Northern India. Ron Barrett". Transforming Anthropology. 21 (2): 208–209. doi:10.1111/traa.12015_8. ISSN 1051-0559. the Aghori, a controversial sect of Hindu ascetics

[1]