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Help table header

With all those links to main page's subpages one gets easily in the sea of links. To resolve that, I feel a help table header is long overdue, hence why I am opening this discussion. Qwerty284651 (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are asking. Please clarify.
A template would be nice. That would save me some work adding new table help pages. I may create a template. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I meant an actual header: Template:AWB, Template:Village pump page header. Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
What would you put in it? --Timeshifter (talk) 19:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
These links categorized by tabs: basic, advanced. Haven't come up with a list of tabs of which like would go where. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
What would you put it in? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Inside a separate page header titled, for example "Help table header or Help table tab header and have that transcluded on all help table (sub)pages. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
There are only four subpages, of which one is a template and another is the doc for that template. That leaves just two, Help:Table/Advanced and Help:Table/Width. Do we really need a header for those? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Let me rephrase that. A table header...anything table related. There are many table help pages that could be structured in an organized manner with a header. These merit a banner: Help:Tables and VisualEditor, Help:Creating tables, Help:Wikitable, Help:Basic table markup, Help:Table/Advanced, WP:Advanced table formatting, Help:Tables and locations, Help:Sortable tables, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial, H:TABLE, Help:Wikitable. Create a banner containing the aforementioned links. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of putting a table or div around the links for now. And then putting that in a template. Such as: Template:Table help. 

<div style="border:solid 1px; padding-left:4px; padding-right:4px;">For more help, see [[Help:Table]], [[Help:Introduction to tables with VisualEditor/1|Help:Tables and VisualEditor]], [[Help:Creating tables]], [[Help:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup/1|Help:Wikitable]], [[Help:Basic table markup]], [[Help:Table/Advanced]], [[Wikipedia:Advanced table formatting|WP:Advanced table formatting]], [[Help:Tables and locations]], and [[Help:Sortable tables]]. For style info, see [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables]]. For accessibility, see [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial]].</div>

It requires full internal links under any shortened labels. So that the link is black, bold, and unclickable when the template is on that page. If you use a shortcut in the template (such as Help:Wikitable) as the underlying link, it will be clickable on that page.

Example: Help talk:Table ([[Help talk:Table]]) link on this page. Talk ([[Help talk:Table|Talk]]). --Timeshifter (talk) 04:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I say go for it. And then replace all headers in the pages above with the template. Sort of a like a predecessor to the header. A transition. Qwerty284651 (talk) 11:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Done, and added to table help pages: Template:Table help. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Scope=row in bottom row in long tables?

A year ago I started a discussion on whether scope=row should be used for the bottom row or use |-style="background-color:#EAECF0; font-weight:bold; text-align:center" to get the same result. In the meantime, a scrolling table template was created: {{sticky table start}}, which makes the col headers sticky and solves the need for a scoped bottom row as a copy of the top row...on smaller screens, for the most part, and on mobile but NOT for wider screens. In my case (table 1 and table 2), the col headers are not sticky when scrolling vertically, which would then need a copy of the top row in the bottom.

Which leads me to this question: do I/should I use scope=row or only visually mimic bolded/gray color appearance that scope produces using the above wiki markup in the aforementioned tables or leave them as is? Qwerty284651 (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Your table 1 and table 2 examples are identical. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 06:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Fixed 2nd table to link to the doubles page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 08:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Something is flaky with that table. The sticky top header row comes and goes as I move my mouse or scroll. I would remove all the unnecessary stuff, one-by-one, to see what is causing it:
Remove style="height:3em" from the header row. This may be causing the problem because sticky templates are tuned to the headers.
Remove {{big}} from header text.
Remove style="font-size:95%"
Remove class=nowrap
Some of the above 4 may be the problem. Some may work together to cause the problem. The top 3 are totally unnecessary. Nowrap is useful for keeping the lines from wrapping. But that means people will be scrolling horizontally more.
Scope=col and scope=row are probably not part of this problem, at least not by themselves. They are unnecessary, though, for simple tables. As this table is.
--Timeshifter (talk) 08:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
I usually scope in all table headers regardless of the table's complexity to be on the safe side with accessibility-compliance. I am still wrapping my head around when to use scope and when not. Help:Table#Scope is provided in an example of a simple table, so I assume it should be used everywhere.
The above 4 markups are just cosmetics. Will eliminate them 1 at a time in my sandbox. Qwerty284651 (talk) 08:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Removing scope="row" would cause accessibility issues. In tables, generally speaking, header cells are implicitly column scope unless the scope= attribute is provided. For a header cell at the top of a column of data cells, you can use an explicit scope="col" but don't need to. For header cells at the left of a row of data cells, such as the years in the Table 1 example, scope="row". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Scope=row is not needed for simple tables. See:

Help:Table#Scope is a generalization, because going into the specifics baffles many new table editors. And because it is based on a very old MOS guideline written in the days of yore before the many improvements of screen readers. Experienced table editors read the actual WCAG, etc. guidelines, and see that on simple tables it serves no purpose. But I don't want to argue about it. Read the links for yourself and decide. It certainly doesn't hurt anything to add more rather than less scopes. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Bug report: caption prevents sorting

Moved from Template talk:Sticky table start#Bug report: caption prevents sorting
 – Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding a caption to a sortable table prevents sorting. sticky-table-head is not the cause. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

It also undoes any row-/colspan in mobile which is bizarre. Removing headerSortUp and sticky-table-unsticky didn't solve the problem. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
@Qwerty284651: From the looks of it, you replaced
|-

with 

|+Per player

instead of 

|+Per player
|-
Jroberson108 (talk) 22:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Meant to add caption before the first row thusly. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
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