Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism/Archive 2

Articles that need work

On the WikiProject page there is too much being added to the "Articles that need work" and page request sections especially "veg persons" without enough work being done. Instead of adding more and more I think we need to complete what is requested. I plan on working through some of these next week. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

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Relationship between speciesism and the AIC

I've started a discussion on the relationship between speciesism and the animal-industrial complex. The link is here. Rasnaboy (talk) 07:41, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

The Vegan Society

The Vegan Society article needs to be expanded with reliable sources, especially about the formation and early members of the Society. Please see current discussion on talk-page and any suggestions for reliable sources would be useful. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

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cats

@User:MaynardClark, the domestic housecat is an obligate carnivore. I'm not sure what this means. —valereee (talk) 02:07, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@—valereee

Surely your concern for the subjectively AND the physicality of companion animals (cats specifically) is commendable. However, they are not alone in 'the moral situation', nor are they and their attention givers alone in the situation. There are absent referents. How does that impact your outlook? Regardless of their need for taurine (the article discusses about the REASON that taurine cannot be synthesized from cysteine), the killing of other (otherwise innocent) animals - several animals - for each cat (whom humans choose to feed, about which killing they learn to feel good, cannot be justified from the perspective of the victimized animals.

Cats have a sulfinoalanine decarboxylase deficiency, preventing the synthesis of taurine from cysteine.

Ethical argument:

I would like to introduce a moral argument here; moral arguments are frequently used in issue advocacy, including in animal advocacy.

The article cat food discussed (in a single sentence) the conversion difficulty internal to cats' metabolism (that makes them 'obligate carnivores' - a designation). That conversion difficulty could be addressed medically, pharmaceutically, or by food processing IF the evidence is found (or available) and translated into an evidence-based intervention that resolves the 'moral dilemma'. What IS that moral dilemma? Is it situationally arbitrary and based entirely upon subjective preferences by pet owners and the industries that support their decisions because they can pay for them (and because the laws currently allow that capricious whim)?

The 3rd party hired to kill disadvantaged nonhumans in order to feed advantaged companion animals pet lovers prefer is in a strange moral dilemma. To claim that anyone's anatomy justifies killing someone else by a 3rd party cannot be justified except in terms of the perspectives of the 'powerful' (e.g. 'justice is the interest of the stronger' - Thrasymachus. However, if a pharmaceutical intervention OR a veterinarian-designed plant-based cat food can (or could) be developed, that moral problem (killing some animals for other animals we prefer to advantage) can be reduced or eliminated. Do you disagree that we should resolve moral dilemmas?

The topic has been addressed for dogs ; cats are prevalent companion animals (and - I argue - the moral argument did not vanish just because of the cats' anatomy and physiology) and research in plant-based diets and animal physiology may open different historical possibilities for those who are morally sensitive to the seeming incongruity of advantaging those we prefer at the existential cost of those who matter far less to us. [User:MaynardClark|MaynardClark]] (talk) 02:27, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Technical challenges for plant-based feeding for ALL 'caged and companion animals' are not simple, but the prospect of plant-based feeding eventually for ALL 'caged and companion animals' is not unthinkable. However, surely that historical prospect is faced with - confronted with - some very real scientific challenges, which could be listed (at the outset?) in any article on the prospect of plant-based feeding for ALL 'caged and companion animals' (specifically for cats because of their long and extensive presence in the array of many different human societies and civilizations. Admitting the possibility is not 'the moral equivalent' of telling those alive in August 2021 to stop feeding their cats without consulting their veterinarian and reading broadly and deeply on the topic. On the other hand, if human beings discuss it vigorously and begin to demand it, research funding and development will surely follow in order to tap market demand (opportunity). What can the word 'justice' possibly mean if we don't recall and deeply consider the PETA warning of the 1980s, 'Good intensions are not enough!'?

Biomedical research, specifically biomedical research in the United States, has not been shy to research orphan diseases and preventable medical conditions that result from human choices; biomedical research has also not been reluctant to research the genetics and genomics of complex diseases. With proper motivation, we might creatively envision, there could be sufficient political and scientific will to research the possibility of plant-based feeding for ALL caged and companion animals, if, indeed, killing one otherwise innocent animal merely to feed a preferred animal is morally repugnant (or at least indefensible), and if more and more humans (who matter in public decisionmaking) begin to realize that 'inherited moral problem.' MaynardClark (talk) 03:08, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Please don't shout. —valereee (talk) 02:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

MC, when you insert stuff above other people's comments, it makes it look like they're responding to what you've inserted instead of what they actually responded to.

I'm not sure why you put all that out there. What I don't understand is Article needs review of wording that may (intentionally) bias the readership against seriously considering the hard, inescapable REASONS FOR plant-based diets for companion animals. What are you seeing as wording that intentionally biases readers (an accusation of intentional POV pushing is an accusation of bad faith and needs actual evidence) and what are you trying to emphasize with the all-capping? —valereee (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Not enough research exists on cat plant-based diets. This was recently published this year [1] link to the study [2] which concluded cats can do well on such a diet but this was only a study of questionnaires so the information came from the cat owners and this has serious biases and limitations. This was published a year ago [3] which analysed vegan cat and dog food and found they all "had one or more nutrients below the recommended levels". Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

There is a market for it; it may be ill-advised (based on science and practice, which may be insufficient for knowledge experts to confidently advise anyone to 'go ahead' with any currently available foods.MaynardClark (talk) 02:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Who was the oldest vegan human who ever lived?

@Throughthemind: @MaynardClark: @BrikDuk: @Odontocetes: @JamieWoodhouse:

There are a lot of vegetarian and pescatarian centenarians or those who lived into their late 90s but I am searching for the oldest vegan centenarian. Loreen Dinwiddie died age 109 is sometimes listed as the oldest vegan. She had a Wikipedia article but it was deleted years ago. There was also Ellsworth Wareham died age 104.

Someone compiled a list here [4] but most of them are not vegan and would not qualify for Wikipedia articles due to lack of sources. Do you know of any others? Which notable vegans have lived 100+ years? Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Fauja Singh currently 110 years old is lacto-vegetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Du Pinhua was a Buddhist vegetarian alleged to have lived to 120 years but this was never validated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe the Loreen Dinwiddie page should be resurrected. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes I thought that myself, I think it should be and there are a few sources out there about her life. I have spent a few hours looking at this, I think she was the oldest vegan that ever lived. There are some very old vegetarians like Teresa Hsu 113 years and Christian Mortensen age 115 years buts its much more difficult to find vegan centenarians. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I understand there is also misinformation on this topic from different websites for example one website promoting raw veganism was claiming centenarian Olive Watson was a raw vegan. Watson lived to be 106 years old and was a Seventh-Day Adventist [5]. In an interview though she revealed her dietary habits which included fish but no red-meat or dairy [6]. Most of the longest living Adventists have been pescatarian or vegetarian, not vegan. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Here a few other long-lived vegetarians but still can't find any other centenarian vegans. Reg Dean [7], [8] vegetarian 110 years old, Soogaree Jattan vegetarian 110 years old. Beatrice Wood vegetarian 105 years old, Marie-Louise Meilleur vegetarian 117 years old, Ramjit Raghav vegetarian 104 years old, Fenner Brockway vegetarian 99 years old, James Martin Peebles vegetarian 99 years old, Severin Wielobycki vegetarian 100 years old, Mac Henderson vegetarian 101 years old. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Mable Cluer was a vegan centenarian and founding member of the Vegan Society, died age 103 [9] [10] Psychologist Guy (talk)

I would ask Freya Dinshah and Hans Diehl and John A. McDougall and Michael Klaper and Pamela Rice and John Robbins and Will Tuttle and Keith Akers. MaynardClark That may involve someone's PHONING American Vegan Society and asking if they have a historical book that has such information. (talk) 01:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

MaynardClark, I am one of the few people in the world with extensive article and book collection on veganism/vegetarianism, I have read 1000s of articles/books on this subject, but listing vegan centenarians is not actually reported in the literature so it is unlikely the people you mentioned will be able to bring anything new to the table but thanks for the suggestion. In the vegetarian/vegan literature they sometimes list sportspeople but not longevity. The exception is Ellsworth Wareham who is mentioned in a few recent publications. Someone recently told me that Sudhakar Chaturvedi was the longest lived vegetarian at 122 years old, but it was never confirmed and he was not vegan. I suspect that guy was actually in his early 90s. Based on what I have seen so far, Loreen Dinwiddie was the oldest vegan at 109 years. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Florence Gustafson Ready vegan lived 103 years [11], Gladys Stanfield vegetarian lived 105 years [12]. Loreen Dinwiddie's article should be recreated, I will attempt this by the end of the year. Psychologist Guy (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Good! MaynardClark (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

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Issue of interest on the Veganism talk page

See Talk:Veganism#Intro to section on health​. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles for vegan/plant-based physicians

@BrikDuk: @MaynardClark: @RBut:

I would like to create more Wikipedia articles for contemporary plant-based/vegan physicians. Obviously we can only create articles for ones with decent sourcing. I am not sure if all these are possible but here are some suggestions:

• Joel Kahn
• Avi Bitterman
• Brooke Goldner
• Michelle McMacken
• Danielle Belardo
• Robert Ostfeld
• Angie Sadeghi
• Scott Stoll
• Saray Stancic
• Laurie Marbas
• Milton Mills
• Hans Diehl
• Wayne Dysinger
• James Loomis
• Martica Heaner
• Pamela Popper

Which of these do you think are most notable? I think Joel Kahn would qualify for an article so I will work on this one first. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Kahn is the only one I know, so he might be a good start :-) Wherever possible we should make clear in the intro if these are conventional physicians (knife, pills, radiation) that only recommend vegan diets or if they are actually treating people with lifestyle changes and diets. Tischbeinahe (talk) 08:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I plan on starting the Joel Khan article soon. I created an article for Will Bulsiewicz. Unfortunately after deeper research most of the names on the above list will not qualify for an article at Wikipedia per lack of reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

That Will Bulsiewicz article has been completed. However, Milton Mills (a) reportedly was valedictorian of his Stanford Medical School class and (b) has been a leading African-American vegan physician, who led some of the PCRM initiatives. MaynardClark (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Veganism article

There have been major edits and discussions on the Veganism page this last month, esp. about what to include or not include in the nutrients and health sections and to come up with a very good summary if that's even needed (see section 'Merge proposal for vegan nutrition​'). The page surely misses Slim Virgin, who kept it well afloat. Please join in, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we all miss User:Slim Virgin. :( Rasnaboy (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Cross-listing in other WikiProjects

I wonder about the desirability of routinely but selectively cross-listing articles in other WikiProjects, such as Health and Fitness, Biography, Nutrition, Women, Women Scientists, Science, Medicine, Biology, nations or states, ethnicities and/or nationalities (e.g. Jews, Romanians. etc.).

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Science_and_academia
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biology
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Food_and_drink
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Health_and_fitness
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Higher_education
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Science
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States - then show the states.
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_scientists
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_writers

This could foster adoption of the article by others (but subject it to more review - whether or not that is always desirable). MaynardClark (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

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Thích Nhất Hạnh

Thích Nhất Hạnh has recently passed away. I suspect obituaries will be published so his article can be expanded. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

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Talk:John A. McDougall

Hey everyone, a very spiri'ed discussion is occurring, and McDougall himself has come to add a long defense of his work and discuss errors on his page. Since it's a "high importance" page for this Wikiproject, maybe worth a look and a read. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India

There is an ongoing discussion regarding the relevance of Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India. Rasnaboy (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

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Non notable people

MaynardClark,

In regard to this edit, Frank L. Hoffman and Gottfried Müller are not notable for Wikipedia [13].

Firstly, Frank L. Hoffman's Wikipedia article was deleted in 2014. As the nominator said "The article does cite a large number of sources, but this is deceptive -- Hoffman does not pass general notability. To the extent that the biographical content in the article is supported by sources, the sources are not independent of the subject. Most of the content is sourced to his website, all-creatures.org, or his Facebook page, or websites of other organizations whose content is hosted on the all-creatures website".

You ported the article to your sandbox [14]. In 8 years (!) you have not added any reliable references to that draft, it is almost the same article as it was deleted in 2014. The all-creatures website, Amazon, Goodreads, or Linkedin are not reliable sources. I do not see a single reliable source on your draft, it is a very poor article. You have no chance of ever getting that person added to Wikipedia because no reliable sources document their life so why keep it on the WikiProject? The article fails WP:GNG. If reliable sources did exist for this person you would have created their article by now but in 8 years you have not done this.

Gottfried Johannes Müller in your sandbox also does not look notable. This article has been deleted twice before on Wikipedia [15]. Based on what can be found online only 1 reliable reference describes his life but this is not enough to write a Wikipedia biography. Your draft was also recently declined [16]. I know you are very interested in veganism and vegetarianism and you are very knowledgeable and have met a lot of people in this field but we need to keep the aims of this WikiProject realistic. This is not a promotion for people you have met in real life and you want a Wiki bio for. These people are not notable according to Wikipedia guidelines. We can only create biographies for vegans or vegetarians if we have reliable sources. Some of the people you are requesting are not notable, you have made good suggestions elsewhere but Hoffman and Müller are a dead-end, I think you should give up on these and find others with reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Veggie burger listed at Requested moves

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Relevance of Faxian's quote in the article History of Animal Rights

I've started a discussion regarding the relevance of adding Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India in the article History of animal rights. The link is here: Talk:History of animal rights § Faxian's quote on Vegetarianism in ancient India. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:57, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Non-notable veg persons

On the WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism homepage there are a lot of non-notable article suggestions [17]. For example L. Keith Akers has no reliable sources. His page on Wikipedia is never going to be created. We need to keep all article suggestions realistic. They must have reliable sources. Aysha Akhtar has reliable sources and I will create her article but many of the others are not notable according to Wikipedia guidelines. I believe that all article suggestions without reliable sources should be removed. The same with "Plant-based food months", nobody is ever going to create all those articles. We can only create articles with good sourcing. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Support I joined the project a couple weeks ago and was going through the project's suggestions, and observed this exact problem. Such suggestions do not merit any consideration, since there are not enough reliable sources to bolster their creation. No one is ever going to pick up the task to create their articles. Only articles for those persons/subjects/titles which have significant reliable sources must be requested. Dissoxciate (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

About 90% or more of the suggestions have come from MaynardClark who also wrote many of the sections on the home-page. I think most of these sections are off-mission. Interestingly since MaynardClark joined this WikiProject he has not created a single article. Obviously there is no requirement to join this WikiProject and create articles but I think it is a bit unfair that he has put hundreds of article requests on the home-page when he has no interest himself in creating any of them. We are not talking about a few, we are talking about hundreds here. I have not seen this on any other WikiProject. It looks like some kind of advertisement or promotion.

Like I said before, nobody is going to create a Wikipedia article for every Plant-based food month. Most of these are not "plant-based", for example "National Chili Month" has nothing to do with veganism or vegetarianism. I understand off-site MaynardClark has been involved with vegetarianism and veganism education and events for decades and he is very interested in the topic but the home-page for the WikiProject seems to have become a soapbox for his personal interests and promotion or people he has met. I think much of it should be removed if the suggestions are unrealistic and not supported by any sources. I don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone here, I respect MaynardClark and his interest in the subject but we need to keep the aims of the WikiProject realistic. The entire "open tasks" section that he added also appears off-mission. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Sam Ryder (singer) listed at Requested moves

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New member, recent importance assessments and some more

Hi! I'm new here, excited to join. I've recently completely reworked Soy curls (I nearly removed everything and started from zero) but it is still missing a lot. I've also assessed the following articles, although I'm not sure if they are correct so feel free to change them:

• L. J. C. Daniels: low importance. He was vegetarian, but there is only that
• Orphism (religion): Mid importance. Perhaps could be high? It is a cool religion from the 6th century BC and they followed a strict vegetarian diet.
• Talk:Paul Carton: Mid importance. Doctor from the 20th century that promoted "naturist vegetarianism"
• Elsie Shrigley: High importance. Co-founder of the vegan society, Credited to coin the term "vegan". Could perhaps be even Top?
• Talk:Tom Regan: He was Top. Changed to High. Writer of The Case for Animal Rights, which isn't part of this project yet but I feel it should. AdrianHObradors (talk) 13:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

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Charles Wesley and John Wesley

I have removed Charles Wesley from the WikiProject. According to historical sources he tried a vegetarian diet for less than a few months (this means nothing considering he lived 80 years). He was not a long-term vegetarian and very little sourcing exists on his diet. His brother John Wesley was a long-term vegetarian so belongs in the WikiProject. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Charles Wesley has long been CLAIMED to be vegetarian by Christian vegetarians. Where is the evidence that he was not a long-term vegetarian? MaynardClark (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

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Aviv (restaurant) at AfD

Aviv (restaurant) has been nominated for deletion. Discussion participation welcome. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Yoga and vegetarianism

Some of the influential yoga teachers and writers were vegetarians but this information is missing from their Wikipedia biographies. Examples include Tirumalai Krishnamacharya, B. K. S. Iyengar, Indra Devi, Beryl Bender Birch, Amrit Desai, K. V. Iyer, Jon Kabat-Zinn, Shri Yogendra, Swami Satchidananda, Satyananda Saraswati, Sivananda Saraswati, Paramahansa Yogananda, Anandamayi Ma, Lokenath Brahmachari, Kriyananda, Vishwananda. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Not some but most of them because yogic philosophy conventionally mandates Sattvic diet or vegetarianism. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Eyestalk ablation for Translation of the week

Hello! I'm reaching out to you because in October, I proposed the English-language article Eyestalk ablation for the Translation of the week project. So far, it's gotten 3 votes and 1 opposition. Given your interest in divulging animal rights, I thought you might be prompted to vote for it and make it available in many more languages. Thank you beforehand! --Brunnaiz (talk) 12:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Interesting topic, where do you vote for this? I could not find the link. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Islam and veganism

It is hard to find historical examples of veganism in Islam, although there was the former-Muslim Al-Ma'arri. Some Sufi mystics were vegetarian. For example Rumi might have been vegan "Rumi was a staunch vegetarian and shunned even milk and milk products" [18]. Rabia of Basra was a vegetarian, as was Bawa Muhaiyaddeen [19] but these are only an extreme minority. There is only a handful of examples. I would like to improve Rumi's article and add mention of his vegetarianism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Category: Vegans

I noticed that the Category:Vegans exists under "People in Veganism" but only has eleven individuals listed. This seems like an area for considerable expansion, especially when cross referenced with the List of vegans and wanted to check if there was a reason it had not been done previously? Vegantics (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes Vegantics, it was decided years ago that the 'List of vegans' could only be distributed to the 'See also' sections of the pages of those who were publicly dedicated and active vegans (same with List of vegetarians). That would go for the category as well, only those who publicly and often proclaim they are vegans or, better yet, those who are public activists should fit into 'Vegan' categories. How they are named and sorted maybe hasn't been discussed as yet. Thanks for focusing on this and these topics. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I think I understand but forgive my inexperience here. It sounds like only individuals on the List of vegans for whom veganism plays a significant role should have it included on their page in the "See also" section.

In terms of Category:Vegans, the same dedication is required to justify including it in the Categories section on their page. If so, there are certainly vocal, active vegans who could be added to the Vegans category (albeit not everyone on the List of vegans).

Looking a little more, I realized many of the names I expected to see under Vegans are listed in the Category:Vegan Activism. Perhaps listing them in both areas is redundant, since both are subcategories of People in Veganism, but that seems a different area of discussion than non-activist public vegans. Vegantics (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The vegans category is going to be deleted. It was already previously deleted and there has been a broad consensus to delete that category. All categories must be defining. Veganism activists is the good category to expand and keep because those individuals are known for their veganism. We can only use vegan and vegetarian categories if the person is notable for that, it must be a defining feature of their life. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:23, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

How ought that 'expansion' to be optimally achieved? MaynardClark (talk) 23:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:06, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Critics of veganism

We have a critics of veganism category but it is not well populated. I recently found a critic of veganism Chris Belshaw [20], [21] that might qualify for an article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Eric Adams 'relationship' with vegans and plant-based diets

Eric Adams is a pescetarian as he is a big fish consumer and has admitted to eating fish at restaurants. He is not a vegan or vegetarian, he is a pescetarian. He currently is currently included in the "American veganism activists" category [22] and has now been included on the veganism template [23]. I think we need to have a discussion about this and come to a consensus view because I do not believe he should be on these templates. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Is NYC Mayor Eric Adams (D-NY) "a big fish consumer" or "an occasional fish consumer" (as are some/many macrobiotics? MaynardClark (talk) 19:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Big fish consumer. We have quite a few WP:RS on this, he has been seen in multiple restaurants ordering and eating fish. Even his personal assistant admitted he is pescetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that the question each of us ought to be asking is how might the NYC Mayor's Office have enhanced the herbivorous values that we have today, with the deep enrichments from decades of careful scientific work, bolstering granular understanding of veganism's desirability, so that vegan values, practices, and 'efficiencies' could be embedded imaginatively in social services and public events. Eric Adams speaks often on behalf of the health benefits of plant-based and plant-exclusive diets. While he ought to learn about the practical realities of toxic buildups in the fish who swim in oceans (dumping grounds) and anywhere near cities (and fish are migratory, and those buildups are fast because of their rapid respiration rates), he seems pointed in desirable directions related to food. I think we 'miss the point' of what is notable TO US and our concerns about Eric Adams and his public places. MaynardClark (talk) 13:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Ralph Waldo Trine

Ralph Waldo Trine's Wikipedia article has sadly been deleted [24]. I suspect that it will be created again, if it is recreated his vegetarianism should be re-added. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I created a new article for Ralph Waldo Trine. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Kyozan Joshu Sasaki

Kyozan Joshu Sasaki who died age 107 I am trying to find sources for his vegetarian diet. This source says that his students were fed communal vegan meals [25]. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

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List of vegetarians

Unfortunately many of the celebrities cited as being vegetarian on the article list of vegetarians are not vegetarian as they eat chicken or fish. I am currently removing non-vegetarians from the list. See talk-page discussion. Any help would be appreciated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

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Scholars of veganism

For a long time there has only been a category for veganism activists. Some of the people included on these lists are not activists for veganism they are academics or scholars.

I have now created scholars of veganism for academics and scholars who have written about veganism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:42, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a long pending one. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 03:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Christian Mortensen

Christian Mortensen was not a vegetarian, see talk-page. His article should be updated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Most of the athletes listed are not vegan or vegetarian

@MaynardClark:

Many of the athletes you added are not vegan or vegetarian, I will go through the others later. If you research these individuals deeply you will find newspaper reports or interviews where they have admitted to eating eggs or fish. Venus Williams for example has never been a vegan. She calls herself a "cheagan" as a joke, and has admitted she still eats red meat. CM Punk eats fish. Most "athlete or celebrity lists" online for vegans or vegetarians are completely inaccurate, they are usually promotional lists. They are not reliable unfortunately.

The Wikipedia lists are more accurate but still need work, see list of vegans and list of vegetarians. Also see the discussions on those talk-pages. I have done work on these lists removing unreliable names. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Can we suppose that this illustrates that seemingly 'reliable' sources are unreliable and not to be believed (or that 'vegans' as a grpup may be targeted by publicists for such celebrities in order to advance these celebrities by the talking habits of activists)? Is there a term for disinformation for political or publicity or self-aggrandizement purposes? Lying? Disinformation? This scenario highlights important points:

1. Reliability of Sources: It suggests that not all claims made by publicists or even by the general public (hoi polloi) about celebrities' lifestyles are accurate. This underscores the importance of verifying information from credible sources before accepting it as true.
2. Potential Targeting by Publicists: It's possible that publicists or marketing teams may strategically align celebrities with certain causes or lifestyles, such as veganism, in order to enhance their public image or appeal to specific demographics, including environmentally conscious or socially aware consumers.
3. Activist Influence: There may indeed be instances where celebrities are promoted as vegan or vegetarian to capitalize on the popularity of these dietary choices among activists or certain consumer groups. This could be seen as a form of "greenwashing" or exploiting the values and beliefs of a target audience for personal or professional gain.

In light of these considerations, it's essential to critically evaluate the information presented by publicists, media outlets, and even fellow activists. Doing so helps ensure that individuals can make informed decisions and avoid being misled by potentially biased or inaccurate representations.MaynardClark (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

PETA and various vegan organizations or activist websites such as VegNews compile a lot of these lists, they then are copied to websites like imdb. The websites are indeed activist influenced and unreliable. Such websites have an agenda to claim most athletes or celebrities are vegan. They basically lie to promote their cause. In reality very few athletes are vegan. A lot of celebrities sometimes flirt with veganism for a short while as a publicist stunt for advertising, it is just a scam to make money. There are very few long-term vegan celebrities. I say this as someone who has spent countless hours researching the topic. PETA used to do the most sexiest vegetarian award and things like that but most of the celebrities posed semi-nude for them in a single advert, this doesn't mean they are long-term vegan or vegetarians. It's is just a publicist stunt.

You also have the fact that some alleged long-term vegans are not even vegan. David Haye for example has been caught eating chicken and Kat Von D eats eggs and meat all the time but if you read their Wikipedia articles it still says they are vegan. We need good WP:RS. If I see a good source saying any of the celebrities eats eggs or fish, then we can remove mention of vegan from their Wikipedia articles.

As a historian I am more interested in historical vegetarians. Most of the historical individuals I have researched were vegetarian and did not cheat. Unfortunately in todays society there seems to be an obsession with consuming fish but then people claiming incorrectly they are vegan or vegetarian.

In a nutshell, activist websites are the worst sources of information on vegan celebrities. They are best to be avoided. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

John Woolman

You could remove the "vegetarian" claim from John Woolman's page... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Woolman Reportedly, he was not really vegetarian. There's (little or) no evidence for the claim. Reportedly, the anecdote mentioned happened to Anthony Benezet, not John Woolman. MaynardClark (talk) 21:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Nice spot. We need more members of this WikiProject such as yourself to find mistakes like this. I am reading over the book John Woolman's Path to the Peaceable Kingdom: A Quaker in the British Empire. p. 150, it says "The trauma of the war convinced Woolman's neighbor Joshua Evans that hunting, and meat-eating generally, violated the Quaker's peace testimony. Woolman did not condemn meat-eating, but he never sold powder or shot again."

Joshua Evans is said to have "abstained from animal food, as he did also from the use of leather and the skins of slaughtered beasts" [26]. Evans was the vegetarian.

"There is no evidence that Woolman ever became fully vegetarian like Lay, Evans, and Benezet" [27]

"Woolman did not become a strident vegetarian, but in other respects his perspective on animal life resembled the views of Tryon and Evans". [28] Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

As I see this, these narratives are (ostensibly) about "religious experiences" and the changes of mind and heart that they involve. We may have seen evidence (writing, etc.) from someone in a process of repentance as his mind was actively changing through moral sensitization. We (vegans?) may have a tendency to think (in a "binary" way) of others as either vegan or not vegan (or vegetarian and not vegetarian, or "on the path" or something else "interpretive" that does or does not correlate closely with their (inaccessible to us) personal experience as "a person in process." Perhaps there was a sensitization process; we don't have omniscience. MaynardClark (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Based on some of the scholarly sources I have just read, Woolman did try and cut down on his meat intake but he still ate meat. He never was a vegetarian. I have not looked into much about the religious element of this. Obviously people go vegetarian for different reasons including ethical, religious or spiritual but if someone is still consuming meat, they are not vegetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

But they are "persons in process" (like so many of us). MaynardClark (talk) 03:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Chinese emperors and vegetarianism

This paper states that Emperor Wu of Liang and Emperor Wen of Sui were both vegetarians [29]. I would be interested in locating historical sources on this. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

In 2006, in Goa, India, a Chinese vegan society sent representatives to the IVU's World Vegetarian Congress there and presented a series of PowerPoint documented sessions on the imperial cuisine of China. In Newton, Massachusetts, a Chinese restaurant (Sally Ling's - no longer there) featured a 100+-item all-vegan menu in addition to their regular fare. The owner of Edward Liu (RIP), who started the restaurant to honor and memorialize his wife, Sally Ling. The all-vegan menu was presented as a hybrid of T. Colin Campbell's research and the imperial plant-based cuisine of China, they argued. They argument seems to "have been around" for awhile, but I cannot assess that line of reasoning. MaynardClark (talk) 15:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Emperor Wu of Liang was definitely a vegetarian [30], [31] [32], [33]. However, most Buddhists were not vegetarian. Thanks for the info about the Chinese Vegan Society, unfortunately not much other information exists. Sadly a Wikipedia article can not be created. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Proposed deletion of Vegepet

The article Vegepet has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Fails GNG and NCOMPANY

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

No sources, it's worth deleting that article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Out of the 3 sources used in the article, only 2 seem like they could be reliable. And out of those two, one is to the vegepet site. So, I concur that there are not enough reliable secondary sources to support this article.

I know what GNG is but what is NCOMPANY? Can anyone link the policy/ guideline - just curious?

Thanks! Whitestar12 (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NCOMPANY which is more strict due than GNG due to the potential for promotional articles from marketing companies and their influence.

Also this a prod/soft delete not a deletion discussion, I don't think anyone will oppose this deletion request but posted this here due to courtesy and the mention of if it being suggested to notify contributors/Wikiprojects. Traumnovelle (talk) 16:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Well now it has to go to AFD anyhow. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@MaynardClark see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vegepet Traumnovelle (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

There are reputable sources as of 5/22/2024 - notably Vegetarian Times articles discussing Vegepet in the late 1980s. Today's reviewers are unlikely to know of those discussions and contribvutions from their own experience, so the historical unearthing must be done.MaynardClark (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Translating fi:Benjamin Pitkänen

Benjamin Pitkänen is among the best known activists for veganism in Finland. At the moment Category:Veganism activists skews heavily towards the UK and the USA, so for NPOV purposes it's probably helpful to add articles about other countries as well.

Some English-language coverage is available from the Finnish national broadcaster and the announcement of an award. The Finnish Wikipedia article and https://www.benjaminpitkanen.fi/mediassa provide a few more sources in Finnish, and in recent years there were also [34] (Helsingin Sanomat), [35] (Sorsa Foundation), [36] (a national church newspaper) and [37] (Ilta-Sanomat).

(Proposing it here because I know Benjamin in person.) Nemo 19:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not convinced he is notable right now for the English Wikipedia. This guy is an activist and online social influencer but doesn't have many followers himself. An easy way to tell if an activist or online influencer is notable is to look at how many followers they have on social media. His YouTube has 3000 followers, his Twitter 3000, his Instagram 4700 followers. If you search his name on Google books, Google News or Google scholar or JSTOR there are no hits. There are no RS in English that mention him in detail. Some of the sources on his Finnish Wikipedia article do not pass our reliable source criteria. There are four Finnish newspaper articles that mention him cited on his article which is good. However, these wouldn't be enough to establish notability for an article on here. It's possible you could create a stub article about him but it risks being deleted. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. I'm not sure the number of followers is comparable across languages. You'd need to compare to other Finnish-language accounts, if we go that route. I'd go check how many followers the subjects of existing articles have but that would go into WP:OTHERSTUFF territory.

I've never heard of Google News as criterion but there's a Google News topic named after him, so perhaps it's about user settings (search language?).

I agree an English Wikipedia article would need to focus on only some of the sources used in the Finnish Wikipedia article. Is international news coverage the only criterion we're left with? Because I'm afraid that's how we get stuck with USA-centric and UK-centric coverage. Nemo 14:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

In general I only cover USA/UK coverage articles, I don't have time to translate other sources usually. It's possible Benjamin Pitkänen might qualify for an article on here if we use Finish newspaper reports. I can easily translate these because there is just a few. I have just found 2 others. There are about 6 newspaper reports that mention him and 2 English articles. This means a total of 8 sources. I think he would qualify but it wouldn't be a massive article but as new sources come to light it could obviously be expanded. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Benjamin Pitkänen. Viral Vegans. Helsinki, Uusimaa, Finland. - So there is a Finnish language Wikipedia article? Has that atrticle been translated into the languages of the nations where 'Viral Vegans' (sounds like an Internet venture) are recognized? Swedish? Norwegian? German? In general I am in favor of translating into (any other 'interested languages') (a) Wikipedia articles and (b) Wikipedia articles in this project. Last year, he notes in his LinkedIn account, he was "Third place in the VegeAwards competition as Finland’s best vegan influencer" (is that a 'notable award'?). Can visibilty be measured apart from how Wikipedia officially recognizes 'notability'?

• "Viral Vegans is a Finnish animal-rights organization with a mission to promote ethical veganism and challenge societal structures built on exploiting animals. Our three core areas are plant-based policy work (universities, companies, & events), vegan education (non-fiction books, school visits, & guides), and content creation (TikTok videos, podcasts, & food reviews)." MaynardClark (talk) 15:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Ed Winters draft

The old Ed Winters article that was deleted has been restored into a draft [38]. I am not sure why the old article has been revived. Most of the sources on it do not pass WP:RS.

VeganLife Magazine, Vegan News, Metro, Evening Standard, thecanary.co, Mirror, Instagram, rt.com, metiza.com, unitydiner.co.uk, vegconomist are all unreliable sources. It's possible to draft an entirely new article for Ed Winters as some new sourcing has come out in the last few years but I am not sure why this old article has been revived with even more unreliable sources being added to it like Instagram or vegconomist. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources seem stuck in 2020 so they're no longer the most relevant. I agree it should be pretty easy to find better sources. The subject is definitely notable now and there's ample coverage pretty much everywhere. Nemo 14:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

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Are the Vances vegetarian?

At the RNC 2024 in July 2024, Usha Vance told the world that her husband, JD Vance, agreeed to her vegetarian diet and enjoys preparing what she described as 'Indian food' in their home kitchen. That opens the question, "Are the Vances vegetarian?" Why was this not reported, and is this merely a card to play during the campaign (which is kept hidden until playing it is needed or desirable)?? What may have been written about this, and is that question ("Are the Vances vegetarian?") seriously pursued, factchecked, validated for epistemological integrity, etc.? I would speculate that, if it's important enough to discuss during a marriage proposal, then it is really important to Usha Vance and her family. MaynardClark (talk) 16:06, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Duckweed as source of Bio available B12

Hi Rasnaboy and all in the Group,

Just Newly joined in, Don't know where to post this topic in our vegan group ,is this right? can anyone help in checking my edits/sources here were they were being deleted/reverted.... and critique or add possible new citations to support its validity.

You may check my edits here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wolffia_globosa&action=history

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lemnoideae&action=history

Regards,

Villkomoses Villkomoses (talk) Villkomoses (talk) 11:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The sources you added fail WP:MEDRS. For example citing Jack Norris' vegan website is not considered a reliable medical source on Wikipedia. There isn't any strong clinical evidence that duckweed is a good source of B12. It has never been confirmed, all I see is one trial. I have some personal history with this myself. I used to take a duckweed protein powder supplement about 4 years ago. The company that were selling it have since removed it from the market. As far as I know there were only 3 companies selling it as a protein powder and they have all stopped selling it. There is no reliable evidence it contains a good amount of B12. A lot of people had high hopes about this but the research has not panned out. It would be lovely if it did but we just do not have the confirmation. The sources you added were not reliable, that is why they were removed. I have not seen any new research on the topic, so I doubt we can update the article to any great degree currently. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

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