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Article promoted by Matarisvan (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:20, 1 June 2025 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Piri Reis

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Rjjiii (talk)

Piri Reis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I am nominating my first article for A-Class review because it has passed a GA review, and I would like to improve it to Featured Article status in the future. I checked out a couple Featured Articles on military leaders to compare and saw that they had gone through and benefited from A class reviews (which seem rare for most subjects). Rjjiii (talk) 02:55, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hawkeye7

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Before I read this article, I had never heard of him. Yet he has articles in 56 languages - quite an achievement even for a cartographer. I am curious as to what led you to chose to work on this subject. Not my area of expertise either, but I have comments to prove that I read it:

  • Infobox image caption: Any idea where this statue is?
  • "He was born in Gallipoli" I don't mind using the old at all (I use "Kiev" all the time) but in the image caption, I think it should say "Gelibolu"
  • "When his 1513 world map was unearthed at the Topkapı Palace in Istanbul, it drew international attention." When was this?
  • "Early life and piracy" - you don't see that heading very often.
  • "The sultan had him beheaded in Cairo" Any idea why?
    • I expanded this into a whole paragraph. It resulted from his lifting the siege. Returning with a bunch of gold played a role in the execution, but it is not 100% clear how. WP:RS say that some of the Ottoman histories and a letter from Venetians written not too long after accuse him of bribery. This is likely not true, again according to RS, because the people that he robbed in the Persian Gulf showed up in Istanbul demanding their money back, but it may have been believed to be true at the time. Rjjiii (talk) 01:22, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the remaining fragment garnered international attention for including a partial copy of an otherwise lost map by Christopher Columbus." How did they know that? (Suggest moving note a and/or incorporating some explanatory text.)
  • "Surviving fragment of the second World Map of Piri Reis" Why are we capitalising "World Map"?
  • In Further reading, "The Maps of Piri Reis" seems out of alphabetic order

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:14, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback, Hawkeye7! I think I've addressed the points above. As far as why "work on this subject", years and years ago, I read about him via dialup on some Geocities page, but it was this spooky stuff about how he had mapped Antarctica from space, and I couldn't find more info about him online. My library had actual books about Piri Reis, but it was more spooky stuff. Rjjiii (talk) 01:22, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:42, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed

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An interesting article, which makes a change from the more modern Milhist articles I tend to review. Some comments:

Lead

  • He created his first world map and likely began drafting the...: This doesn't make it clear that this is (presumably) the map of 1513 which is part of his notability. Also, with reference to the Notable work in the infobox, I think it should be identified as 1513 world map there too for consistency
  • After their victory, he presented the world map: is this the 1513 world map or another map?
  • suggest linking Grand Vizier
  • why isn't the Hind of In 1546, Piri Reis became Hind Kapudan-ı Derya part of the blue link for Kapudan-ı Derya?
  • he was executed in 1553 in Cairo.: The article body says the date of his execution is unknown. My copy of "The Oxford Companion to World Exploration" (Ed. David Buisseret) has an entry for Reis by McIntosh (the 2000a McIntosh ref is given as a source). That gives a year of death of 1554, not 1553 as stated in lead/infobox.
    • I've added an explanatory note and duplicated a citation to that part of the lead. I think most older sources say 1554 or around 1554. In the past couple decades, European letters have turned up that allow historians to be more specific. The abstract of Pedani (2015) says, "his death that happened in Cairo in 1553 (and not 1554 as many scholars have thought till now" and the cited page says, "For this fact he was beheaded in Cairo by order of the sultan. We do not know when this actually happened. On his coming back to Venice, on 17 August 1554, the Venetian consul in Cairo Daniele Barbarigo (1550-1553) reported that Piri Reis had been killed because he had not done his duty. This diplomat had finished his charge in March 1553, but his successor arrived in Egypt on the following 14 December and he had to wait for him31. Other Venetian sources say that something very remarkable happened in Cairo between January and February 1553, but they do not explain exactly what really happened32. On 16 December 1553, however, a letter written in Constantinople on 15 November 1553 reached Venice. It said that Piri Reis had been beheaded in Cairo [...] (Pedani, 2015, p. 324)". Rjjiii (talk) 03:01, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • little appreciation during his own life.: suggest "during his lifetime."

Early life

Naval career


Grand Admiral of the Indian Ocean Fleet

Piri Reis map of 1513

  • Suggest trimming the first paragraph a little since it has previously been established that the map was given to Selim I

Kitab-ı Bahriye

  • Again, suggest a little trimming (the second para this time) as it has been stated elsewhere that this was a commission from the grand vizier

One final comment is that you should run the Dupe links tool. This will highlight a number of duplicate links, 2nd and successive usages (they are indicated by in red box) which should be removed. All in all though, an enjoyable read. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:01, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • I ran the duplicate links script. I don't think there are duplicate links within any sections now. There are still duplicates between the lead and some body sections but I think that is fine, Rjjiii (talk) 02:28, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback! I've started going through the notes above, Rjjiii (talk) 03:01, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Zawed: I appreciate all the feedback. I think I've addressed the notes above, but feel free to offer any additional notes or clarification. Rjjiii (talk) 02:28, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Zawed? Rjjiii (talk) 03:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have added my support. Zawed (talk) 09:50, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

HF

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I'm always a bit hesistant to review something at ACR that I know nothing about given that I know an ACR pass will sometimes play a role in how reviewers approach the article at FAC but I will take a look this week. Hog Farm Talk 23:20, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is Gelibolu the same as Gallipoli (a town, not the peninsula?)? Several of the references name his location of birth as Gallipoli
  • "He was born in Gelibolu—" - can we say outright that he was born in Gelibolu/Gallipoli? The Soucek source calls than an "unconfirmed tradition". The SeaNews source states that he was probably born in 1470 at Gallipoli; it's unclear if the probably is intended to refer to the site or the date or both. McIntosh 2000a also expresses uncertainty about the Gelibolu location - I really don't know that we should be stating without a qualifier that he was born there
  • "Piri Reis gives his father's name as Hacı Mehmed" - why is this in the present tense?
  • "By age 12, he began sailing with his uncle, the notable corsair Kemal Reis" - we have previously stated who his uncle was, without an explanation that he was a notable corsair; I think you could probably omit the earlier sentence and just link Kemal Reis here
  • "Piri Reis took part in the Ottoman–Venetian wars, including the First Battle of Lepanto (Battle of Zonchio), Second Battle of Lepanto (Battle of Modon), and 1501 conquest of Navarino. [paragraph break] Piri Reis took part in the Ottoman–Venetian wars, including the Battle of Zonchio (the First Battle of Lepanto), the Battle of Modon (the Second Battle of Lepanto), and the 1501 conquest of Navarino" - I assume the duplication in unintentional?
  • "Cuoghi, Diego (2002). "Part 1 (Piri Reis)". The Mysteries of the Piri Reis map. Archived from the original on 10 March 2004." - what makes this self-published source RS?


That's it for my first reading. Hog Farm Talk 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting for ACR but I would expect that if this goes to FAC you will get some further review questions about the Cuoghi source and possible SeaNews (although I note that there is a decent explanation of subject-matter expertise for the author of that piece earlier in this ACR). Hog Farm Talk 18:04, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Hog Farm! I realize you're saying that they are okay for ACR, but I've gone ahead and moved Cuoghi down to an external link. I'm replacing the SeaNews citations, and I'll move it down to an external link as well. Rjjiii (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Hi Rjjiii, I am doing this source review first, after which I will do the spot checks and image review.


That’s the source review done. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Matarisvan. Rjjiii (talk) 01:26, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii, some more comments on the source review:
  • How reliable is Tethys? I think there could be a better source to replace this one.
  • How reliable is MuslimHeritage? I think you should remove both links to this source.
  • I think you should remove the Steven Dutch source from the Further Reading section. It is already present in the biblio.
  • I have added the translated titles and reworded the alt texts. I hope that is alright.
  • Absolutely, I misunderstood your request above. I personally did not use translations of titles because there is a possibility of sending a reader down the wrong track if they search for the English title when it's not present in the source. As long as the original title is still present though, that's not a big concern. Regarding the alt text, I appreciate you looking into them and have left all but one as written. For the map, I partially reverted the alt text to point towards the image link or the section text. For accessibility, the text on a complex image should be made available as text and the alt text can point a listener towards where to look for the details. Rjjiii (talk) 02:11, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That’s all on the source review, I will do the image review next. Matarisvan (talk) 08:31, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, Rjjiii (talk) 02:11, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii, here are the spot checks and image review:
  • Ref #9, #33, #48, #87, #138: all ok.
  • Infobox image, image two and the last image: Suggest adding the {{FoP-Turkey}} copyright tag for all these images.
  • Move image two from the lead to the end of the legacy section? It isn’t usual to have an image in the lead.
  • The licensing of all the other images is ok.
The source review is a pass, just waiting for you to do the above two changes so the image review can also be passed. Matarisvan (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Matarisvan, I've made the changes to the images. Thanks for the help and the feedback, Rjjiii (talk) 17:57, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii, the image review is also a pass then. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:37, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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Lead

  • He was born in Gelibolu—a major Ottoman naval base—and sailed from an early age with his uncle Kemal Reis
Add a comma after uncle to recognizes the appositive

Early life and piracy

  • Little is known about Piri Reis' background and early life.[2]
background is a highly versatile word. Its meaning can range from a physical setting to contextual information. So, drop the word background; the article seems to contain a reasonable amount of contextual information.
Done, Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was possibly Piri Reis' father.[7]
Suggest -> Sources suggest he was Piri Reis' father
The cited source doesn't really go so far as suggesting he was the father: "Venetian documents give us the name of a brother-in-law (cognato) of Kemal reis. He may, or may not, be Piri reis’s father, since Kemal reis might have had more than one sister and, moreover, the Italian word cognato makes reference also to the brother of a wife and not only to the husband of a sister." Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay - Pendright (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a corsair, Piri Reis captured many ships, a fortress near Mallorca, and Pianosa near Corsica.[3]
Suggest-> Piri Reis led the capture of many ships
Done, Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the Granada War, Piri Reis transported Muslims and Jews from Spain to North Africa.[11]
Give the reader a snippet of why
  • During the winters, he and his uncle took shelter in favorable harbors on the Barbary Coast.
Suggest substituting the word during in one of these two successive sentences.
Done, Rjjiii (talk)

Naval career

  • Piri Reis took part in the Ottoman–Venetian wars, including the First Battle of Lepanto (Battle of Zonchio), Second Battle of Lepanto (Battle of Modon), and 1501 conquest of Navarino.[3][20]
Suggest this version: Piri Reis took part in the Ottoman–Venetian wars, including the Battle of Zonchio (the First Battle of Lepanto), the Battle of Modon (the Second Battle of Lepanto), and the 1501 conquest of Navarino.
Done, Rjjiii (talk)
  • In one naval battle, Piri Reis and his uncle captured a Spaniard who had participated in Columbus's voyages,[25][26] and likely possessed an early map of the Americas that Piri Reis would [later] use as a source for his maps.[27]
Add [later] as above
Done, Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although he had never sailed the Atlantic, he compiled over twenty maps of Arab, Spanish, Portuguese, Indian and older Greek origins into a comprehensive representation of the known world of his era.[35]
Add a comma after Indian
Done, Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • But do not suppose that they invented such knowledge on their own; and if you wish, I will explain why.
Should this be in quotes?
This was in quotes, but the quote was so long that it spanned multiple lines. Since it was unclear, I converted it over to a {{blockquote}}. Rjjiii (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Great - Pendright (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • During his time, the famous ruler Alexander traveled over all the seas, and whatever he saw and whatever he heard he had recorded, item by item, by a competent person."[64]
Should some of this sentence be in quotes?
Same as above, Rjjiii (talk)
Great - Pendright (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Admiral of the Indian Ocean Fleet

  • The Portuguese navy employed sailing ships capable of navigation and combat in open seas, while the Ottoman Navy relied mainly on galleys, which were more effective along the coasts.
  • Change navigation (a noun) to navigating (a verb) -> navigation is the concept while navigating is the doing
  • Drop the definite article before coasts - they are not specific

Legacy

  • The first two sentences of the legacy strike me as commentary and could be used as an introductory paragraph
A para break - but, it's your call Pendright (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha, done, Rjjiii (talk)
  • A legacy of a subject usually includes both pros and cons. While the above does acknowledge the controversies, it does not acknowledge the acts of piracy committed by the subject.
Here, we're asking for additional information - Pendright (talk) 06:06, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. I've saved this for last because I need to gather and check the sources, Rjjiii (talk) 11:47, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No problem - take all the time you need. Pendright (talk) 21:15, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright, I have added to the legacy section some lines that give a more neutral context. The sources (even non-Turkish ones) don't really criticize him for being a pirate but say more that it was a norm for the time and place. I have included some of this context in the section on his life, and have also tried to be more explicit about his reputation as a sailor (vs. the Babarossa brothers for example) and about the lack of impact his raiding had on the Reconquista. I hope that is better for NPOV. Rjjiii (talk) 06:53, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii: I'm pleased to support the nomination. Thank you for this rich piece of history. I look forward to seeing this article at FAC. Regards! Pendright (talk) 07:43, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This it for now - Pendright (talk) 00:32, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright, any further comments from your end? This article now has 3 supports and has passed both the source and image reviews. Matarisvan (talk) 18:40, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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