Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cher/archive4

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 11 March 2025 [1].

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Cher

Nominator(s): Cherfc (talk) 03:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This article is about Cher, an American cultural icon whose career has spanned music, film, television, fashion, Broadway, and the occasional infomercial. I began working on it back in 2012, when my English skills were about as questionable as Cher's decision to star in Burlesque. Over the years, with the invaluable help of editors like GabeMc, Wikipedian Penguin, Noleander, SNUGGUMS and AJona1992, the article has gone through countless improvements and achieved GA status.

Thirteen years (and three failed FACs) later, I think the article finally has what it takes to meet Wikipedia's highest standards. While I've grown from a teenager fumbling with sentence structure to a Family Medicine resident with limited free time, my fascination with Cher hasn't wavered. I may not always be able to reply to feedback immediately, but I promise to address every suggestion thoughtfully.

This article has been extensively rewritten, expanded, and carefully trimmed down to ensure it provides comprehensive yet concise coverage of Cher's legacy. I'd appreciate your help in ensuring it meets FA standards and earns a place among Wikipedia's finest work. Thank you for considering this nomination. Cherfc (talk) 03:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Support from Noleander Comments by Noleander

I got you, babe. It has been 13 years since I did an FA review, so if I have a mistake in the formatting here, anyone should feel free to edit my comments and adjust the indents, bulletting, etc. Noleander (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Noleander

Wording: in general, for the whole article, I suggest reading it out loud. Sometimes that exercise can reveal subtle grammar or phrasing issues that are hard to detect when reading the written word. Got it. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Footnote #402 "Secondary sources stating that Cher is often called, nicknamed or known as the "Goddess of Pop"..." is unusually long. Consider moving it into a "Note" (you only have one Note so far) rather than in the References/Citations section. Let me know if this is what you were going for or if further adjustments are needed. Cherfc (talk) 04:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC) External links: consider making it 2 columns, if feasible, to be similar to preceding ref sections. Done. Cherfc (talk) 02:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC) Cite tool shows that source "Zuckoff, Mitchell (2009). Robert Altman: The Oral Biography..." is not used a source for any citation. Normally that would go into a "Further Reading" section, but it would be peculiar to have such a section with only one source in it. No big deal to leave it as is. The only use for this book was to source a lengthy quote from Cher in which she thanked Robert Altman for believing in her at the beginning of her film career. Since the quote was trimmed down and is no longer included, I decided to remove the source entirely. Cherfc (talk) 02:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC) "Cher is widely revered .." sounds odd. Maybe eliminate "widely"? Done. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Regarding "Through her 1970s television shows, Cher became a sex symbol with her inventive and revealing Mackie-designed outfits and fought the network censors to bare her navel...." Two questions: (1) was she successful in displaying the navel? [edit: I see a photo is included with the navel in question; so perhaps reword text to: "... and successfully fought the network censors ...";] and (2) I know that there was a tv show where she would throw off a cape at the start to reveal her outfit ... is that significant enough to mention? Probably not. Done. As for (2), while I think her entrances were bigger than entire careers nowadays, I'm not sure others would agree with me on this... Also not sure if there are sources describing her entrances specifically in a way that can be linked to the whole navel drama. Would've been cool, though. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Wording seems imprecise: "Cher publicly endorsed global recognition of the Armenian Genocide....". Better may be "Cher has attempted to raise awareness of the Armenian Genocide... " or "Cher has drawn attention to the need for more awareness of the ... " or "Cher has made efforts to raise awareness of the Armenian Genocide..." something like that. Done. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Wording: "Cher has repeatedly reinvented herself through various personas" Consider -> "Cher has repeatedly reinvented herself by adopting a series of personas..." Done. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Wording: "The New York Times declared Cher as the "Queen of the Comeback"..." I think the grammar is wrong there. Maybe "The New York Times declared Cher the "Queen of the Comeback"..." or "The New York Times declared Cher to be the "Queen of the Comeback"..." Not sure. Done. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Typo: Fascinated by film stars, Cher's idolized Audrey Hepburn, " -> "... Cher idolized.." Done. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Confusing wording: "Cher's following releases kept her solo career competitive with her work with Sonny" (1) "subsequent" is probably better than "following"; (2) I cannot tell if this means her solo work happened AFTER the breakup of Sonny & Cher; or she was releasing some solo work at the same time as some S&C music. Maybe try to clarify that. They did not break up until 1974. In fact, Cher's solo career started a few weeks (!) before her breakthrough as Sonny & Cher, and she maintained her solo career since day one. I thought this was already clear in the article, but maybe not. What would you suggest? Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) That makes sense, I see no specific change. Noleander (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) "In 2023, Cher launched Cherlato, a gelato brand created with New Zealand ice cream company Giapo. The brand debuted in Los Angeles with a truck offering gelato made from local ingredients." I presume she has had many, many branding/endorsement deals thru her life. Is this one special enough to warrant being in the article? Is she part owner of the company? If it is not special, consider removing it. She gave interviews saying how this has been a dream of her for five years and stuff. I don't know what to make of this either. Removed. Cherfc (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) The section "Tours and residencies" is confusing to me. The words "tour" "residency" and "concert" all have specific meanings, no? Tour = same act in many cities. Residency = Same act many times in one city. "Concert" - A one-time, unique performance. The section seems to use the terms in a confusing way, e.g. the subsection "Concert residencies" contains " Cher in Concert" which is desscribed as a tour that visited many cities in several continents. The subsction title "Concert residencies" led me to think items contained therein would be all residencies, so the inclusion of a tour is puzzling. Ditto for other bullets in the other subsections. Noleander (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC) The confusion arises because Cher performed two distinct types of concerts between 1979 and 1982, both of which began as Vegas residencies and later evolved into world tours. While there is no definitive record of when exactly she transitioned from residency performances to a world tour, here’s what we know: She had a Vegas residency titled Cher in Concert from 1979 to 1982. The fact that it was a residency is well-documented, as her performances in Vegas were often used as a cultural shorthand for the idea of a "career slump"; and Cher also refers to a concert series from the same period as The Take Me Home Tour, which she identifies as her first solo world tour. This tour also began in 1979 and concluded in 1982, visiting multiple cities across several continents. What complicates the matter further is the apparent lack of clear differentiation between the concerts she performed as part of her residency and those performed overseas. It seems that Cher drew from two main performance templates during this time, adapting them based on her schedule, audience demand, or even her own preferences at given time—whether performing in Vegas or on tour. To address this, I’ve included both The Take Me Home Tour and her Vegas residency under the 1979–1982 section. The paragraph seeks to clarify their coexistence and evolution, acknowledging what Cher herself distinguishes as the Take Me Home Tour, a separate entity, while also hinting at the fact that the lines between the residency and the tour remain blurred in historical accounts. As an additional note, the concept of a cohesive "musical era"—where an album is followed by singles, videos, and a corresponding tour—was less firmly established in the music industry during this period. Between 1979 and 1982, Cher managed an extraordinarily diverse career: releasing three solo albums, fronting a rock band and releasing an album with them (sometimes classified as a fourth Cher album from that era), maintaining her Vegas residency and touring globally—both solo and with the band. Without clearer documentation, this period remains somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps the only person who could definitively clarify the distinction between the Take Me Home Tour and her residency performances is Cher herself. For now, the best approach seems to be acknowledging both as distinct yet interconnected aspects of her career, even though the exact boundaries between them are difficult to define. This ambiguity also makes it challenging to separate Cher in Concert into two distinct articles, as the available sources documenting Cher's live performances during this time often fail to specify whether they refer to the residency or the tour. Hopefully, this explanation helps make this complex period a little less confusing. Cherfc (talk) 10:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Noleander, I really appreciated your feedback on the tour vs. residency topic—it stuck with me for a few days. So I made a mini-revamp of the Take Me Home Tour (Cher) article and also added a footnote to the main Cher article to help clarify the ambiguity. Let me know your thoughts when you have time. Hope you like it! Cherfc (talk) 16:10, 26 January 2025 (UTC) One more thing: Maybe could use better section titles for "Bibiliography" (is "Works" better?) and "Literary sources" (is "Sources" better?). I know WP has not established firm rules on those section names, but the current names are not the best, in my opinion. Noleander (talk) 20:04, 26 January 2025 (UTC) Thanks for your suggestion! I can see where you're coming from, but I think "Works" could be a bit confusing since Cher has a variety of works—albums, tours, films, TV shows etc. I chose "Bibliography" because it aligns with the structure used in John Lennon's article, which is a Featured Article. For "Literary sources", I followed the approach in Lady Gaga's article, which is also a FA. Both have worked well in those cases, so I thought they'd be a good fit here too. What do you think? Cherfc (talk) 23:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC) That's fine. As long as there is a rational explanation, that is sufficient. WP is pretty loose regarding the names of those sections. Noleander (talk) 00:05, 27 January 2025 (UTC) Change to "Support" is near: Only remaining task, for my support, is "alt" tags in photos. Noleander (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Image selection and layout is superlative ... probably one of the better photo collections in all of Wikipedia. Noleander (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Really glad you think so—it's a great collection to work with! Cherfc (talk) 04:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Changed to "Support" ... don't see any remaining issues that would prevent promotion to FA. Noleander (talk) 00:06, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your support! I appreciate hearing there are no remaining issues. Cherfc (talk) 05:52, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment by AJona1992

Thanks for the ping. Unfortunately, I won't be able to review the article as thoroughly as I'm shipping out to boot camp this weekend and won't be able to contribute fully. Good luck with the FA! Best – jona ✉ 16:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, and no worries at all! Wishing you all the best at boot camp. Take care! Cherfc (talk) 15:57, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Source Review (Pass) from LEvalyn

Resolved comments from LEvalyn

There's a lot here! I like to use a random number generator to check 10% of the sources. In this case, that will be cites 2, 11, 23, 34, 37, 43, 49, 51, 55, 74, 84, 88, 109, 122, 123, 131, 138, 142, 146, 165, 177, 194, 195, 241, 251, 257, 265, 267, 275, 276, 300, 307, 311, 312, 324, 326, 331, 335, 363, 410, 417, 425, 428, 454, and 457, as numbered in this diff. It will take me a few installments but I will work my way through them. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC) Verified with no close paraphrasing: 2, 11, 23, 37, 43, 49, 51, 55, 74, 84, 88, 109, 122, 123. I think By age nine, her voice was unusually low implies something different from her statement in 11 that My voice was low, even then. The "by" framing emphasizes an idea that her voice was steadily growing lower all the time; I think "Even at age nine..." would be fine. Not a source comment, but I found the paragraph break between Holt later married actor John Southall... and Holt's marriage to Southall ended... a little disorienting. Since there are only two sentences about Southall, can the be in the same paragraph? 34 verifies, but I think the paraphrasing is too close, since it's the identical list of five fashion items in the same order. Maybe pick the three most important/relevant from bell-bottoms, striped pants, ruffled shirts, industrial zippers and fur vests? For 74, Cher later commented that her tight schedule... it would assist with verifiability if you linked the exact page, since I had to get pretty clever manually changing the URL to access it in Wayback (the links themselves don't work). Is IMDb considered reliable for the 1983 CableACE Award? That's 1/3 done for now and I need a break. I'll make my way through the rest throughout the week. So far, looking pretty solid; very interesting article. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC) Thanks for taking the time to review! I've addressed all the suggestions. Regarding the 1983 CableACE Award, the only alternative source I found besides IMDb is this one: Julien's Auctions. Since the award was discontinued, information is scarce—should we replace IMDb with this, or keep both sources for completeness? Looking forward to your thoughts. Cherfc (talk) 02:42, 23 January 2025 (UTC) I found a 1983 newspaper to cite here. Newspapers.com has some great stuff and it's available in the Wikipedia Library! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 05:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC) Also thanks for making those other changes, they look good to me! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 06:58, 23 January 2025 (UTC) On my second pass, verified with no close paraphrasing: 130, 137, 146, 165, 177, 195, 241, 251, 257, 265, 267, 275, 276, 300, 307. For 141, it would be helpful to link the Internet Archive copy available here. Also for 141, I'm not sure the source really says she was receiving attention for her controversial lifestyle. It just says the outspoken star shown [sic] a penchant for the various lifestyle traits listed. I also think this is another close-paraphrasing case where the article has the same four distinctively-phrased items as the source. Maybe this could be something like, by the 80s she had gained a reputation for exhibitionist fashion, plastic surgery, and affairs with younger men? 194-- "If Labels 'Believe' In Dance Acts, Success Will Follow"-- doesn't seem to add any information to the article. the event's first sellout in five years is exactly how the source words this, can you rephrase? About 2/3 done now. The sourcing continues to be very solid (and a bit distractingly fun to read!) so I'm sure I'll be back with a support after the last chunk. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 06:55, 23 January 2025 (UTC) Thanks for the feedback! I've addressed all the suggestions and also added Internet Archive links to all book sources where available. Cherfc (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2025 (UTC) Looking good! Thanks for the IA links. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 00:29, 25 January 2025 (UTC) All right, we're in the final stretch! Verified with no close paraphrasing: 312, 324, 326, 331, 363, 410, 417, 425, 428, 454, and 458. The article's claim that "Believe" was the first commercial recording to use Auto-Tune...as a stylistic effect doesn't seem strictly supported by "Flashback: Cher Brings the Future of Pop to 'Top of the Pops' With 'Believe'", which just says it helped introduced the world to Auto-Tune when the software was less than two years old. This section could use some revisiting: Although Cher has been erroneously attributed to being the first woman to expose her navel on television,[334] she was the most prominent to do so[335]. "Navel gazing: The first female belly buttons ever seen on TV" does not says that Cher is erroneously identified as the first navel on TV, though it does identify the actual first. I wonder if the cites should be swapped, actually. Maybe the whole bit could be reworked to something like "Cher has been erroneously identified as the first woman to expose her navel on television after the 1951 American Code of Practices for Television Broadcasters[335] (the actual first was Yvette Mimieux in 1964),[334] and her frequent exposed midriff earned her the moniker "pioneer of the belly beautiful" from People." This supplied period seems unnecessary: challenging[338] our perceptions of her[.] For "The 200 Greatest Pop Culture Icons Complete Ranked List", it would be good to link an archived link since the original is down. And that completes my source review!! Once the notes on auto-tune and the navel are addressed, I will be happy to support. Great work! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 00:29, 25 January 2025 (UTC) I've addressed all suggestions. The actual source used for the Auto-Tune information was the Sound on Sound source, and it is now correctly placed after the relevant information. Let me know if anything else needs adjustment. Thanks for the thorough review! Cherfc (talk) 07:16, 25 January 2025 (UTC) Great, the Sound on Sound source is perfect for that. I like your use of a note for the Yvette Mimieux info, too. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:01, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy corrections and well done again on a thoroughly-researched article with a lot to cover! Happy to support on sources. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:01, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate your support. Glad the sources are working well! Cherfc (talk) 15:56, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Image Review (Pass) from Noleander

• I think some images are missing "alt" tags for visually impaired; e.g. File:TeenIn11968a.jpg About half the images have "alt", half do not. Remember that the alt text should not repeat the caption, but instead should describe what is in the photo: painting a picture with words. This is mandatory for FA.

Correction: I may be wrong about "alt" requirement: MOS says "In addition to a caption, alt text – for visually impaired readers – should be added to informative (but not purely decorative) images" ... so I am wrong to say that _all_ images must have "alt", only the informative ones do. In my opinion, based on the fact she was a style icon, all of the images in this article are "informative", that is, visually impaired people will want to hear a description of her outfits, hair style, etc. Noleander (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up! I've added alt texts for all the images now. Let me know if you spot anything else that needs tweaking! Cherfc (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

• Copyright check: Pass. ... all images include details that indicate valid copyright permissions for use in WP.

• Images Layout: Pass.

• Image coverage & appropriateness: Pass.

Noleander (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Support from Hurricanehink Review from Hurricanehink

I figured I should review such a fabulous person, considering I have an FAC of my own. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:14, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Hurricanehink

"She debuted on Broadway in 1982 with Come Back to the 5 & Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean and starred in its film adaptation, earning critical acclaim." - I thought that you mistakenly listed Jimmy Dean twice. Given the weird nature of the title of this, I suggest rewording the sentence so you don't have anything after the title, something like "She earned critical acclaim after debuting on Broadway and starring in the film adaptation of Come Back to the 5 & Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean." Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "While living in Los Angeles, Holt pursued acting while working as a waitress, occasionally securing minor television roles for her daughters in shows such as The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet." - considering the next paragraph mentions Cher in fifth grade, how old was Cher when she had her first TV appearances? Seems mildly important for the first ever role. There are no available sources specifying the exact date of Cher's appearance on Ozzie and Harriet. Since she and Georganne were uncredited extras, I didn't expect to find one. However, IMDb lists Georgia Holt in the September 23, 1955, episode, so it's reasonable to assume that's when Cher and her sister appeared. Cher would have been nine at the time. That said, this inference would fall under WP:NOR. What are your thoughts on how we should handle this? Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Really appreciate that extra bit of research! Damn, that's a shame you couldn't get another source verifying the IMDb bit. That's fine what you have then. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) There are a lot of duplicate links. I first noticed it when "I Got You Babe" was linked twice in short succession. Done: Removed all duplicate links in close succession. Kept duplicates that are significantly helpful to the reader and spaced far apart. Cherfc (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "They officially married after she gave birth to Chaz Bono on March 4, 1969." - how long after? I figured her wedding date would get a mention. "On June 30, 1975, four days after finalizing her divorce from Sonny, Cher married rock musician Gregg Allman, co-founder of the Allman Brothers Band." - wait what? The last thing I read, Cher was in a two-year relationship with David Geffen. You go into a lot of detail for 1975, but if I understood it to be chronologically, the following would have happened in the four days between the divorce and the new marriage: "Cher was required to work exclusively for Cher Enterprises, a company 95% owned by Sonny and 5% by his lawyer" "That year, Sonny premiered a solo show, The Sonny Comedy Revue, which carried the creative team behind the Sonny and Cher show. It was canceled after 13 weeks." "In 1975, Cher signed a $2.5 million deal with Warner Bros. Records and began work on her first album with the label." (would be nice to know when this was) "...drawing inspiration from artists such as Stevie Wonder, Elton John, James Taylor, Carly Simon, Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan" On February 16, 1975, Cher debuted her solo CBS show, Cher." Now I know it's not all chronological, but for a three-year period, there's a lot of info being mentioned without a lot of clarity. I'm not sure how much is vital to Cher's history since there's so much here. "With a combination of Cher fans and Allman Brothers fans in attendance, fights frequently broke out at venues, prompting Cher to cancel the tour." - now this is a level of messy detail that I love. No notes. A lesson in incompatible demographics. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "She auditioned for and was cast by Robert Altman in the Broadway production Come Back to the 5 & Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean, playing a James Dean fan club member at a 20-year reunion" - same as earlier, I suggest splitting the last part into its own sentence. Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "When it premiered in 1983, audiences questioned Cher's ability as an actress. She recalls attending a film preview during which the audience laughed when they saw her name in the credits." - more time is spent on this than the movie being a financial success. I'm assuming it's a success since it grossed $30 million on a budget of $10 million. "Her song "You Haven't Seen the Last of Me", from the film's soundtrack,[242] topped the Billboard Dance Club Songs chart in January 2011, making Cher the only artist with Billboard number-one singles in six consecutive decades (1960s–2010s)." - what was the #1 single from the 2000s? "Song for the Lonely", "A Different Kind of Love Song" and "When the Money's Gone" (see [2]). Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I know the stat very well, I was excited when Cher got her #1 for the Christmas song, but since that factoid is a pretty big part of the article, maybe add somewhere in the 80's section of these #1 hits? You do the same for the rest of the decades, I believe. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "The 1980 video for "Hell on Wheels" involves cinematic techniques[335] and was one of the first music videos ever" - the article for Music video says there were plenty of videos before 1980 Done: Text updated to attribute the recognition to biographer and film historian Lawrence J. Quirk, per the cited source. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) The article seems to cover the controversy with "If I Could Turn Back Time" twice. Maybe the first one could be less about the video? "The music video for its second single, "If I Could Turn Back Time",[151] caused controversy due to Cher's performance on the battleship USS Missouri, where she straddled a cannon in a leather thong, revealing her tattooed buttocks.' "Deemed "controversial" for her performance on the battleship USS Missouri, straddling a cannon,[152] and wearing a leather thong that revealed her tattooed buttocks,[153] the 1989 music video for "If I Could Turn Back Time" was the first ever to be banned by MTV." Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Well, the controversy is still mentioned twice, that's the part that seems unnecessary, mentioning the cannon and the controversy twice. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "As the mother of a trans man, Cher has advocated for visibility and support for trans families." - by this point in the article, we don't know if it's referring to Chaz or Elijah Blue Allman Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "Cher donated more than 180,000 bottles of water to the city" - make sure here and elsewhere that your units have nonbreaking spaces. 180,000 bottles, which in the edit window looks like 180,000 bottles Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "During the COVID-19 pandemic, Cher launched the CherCares Pandemic Resource and Response Initiative" - this part is then followed by a paragraph starting in 2017. Your chronology should be consistent. In this section, I aimed to group closely related topics within the same paragraph rather than strictly following a chronological order. Given that Cher's philanthropic efforts span various causes over the years, a purely chronological approach might feel disjointed. That's why the Flint effort and the CherCares Pandemic Resource and Response Initiative are included in the same paragraph—both focus on public health crises and providing direct aid to affected communities. Do you think restructuring would improve clarity? Cherfc (talk) 04:52, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Oh that makes sense, no it's fine. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) "During the 2000 United States presidential election, ABC News wrote that she was determined to do "whatever possible to keep him [Bush] out of office".[385] She told the site" - wait the site? ABC News is a network I believe this refers specifically to ABCNews.com, as the piece was published exclusively on the website. Should we clarify this? Cherfc (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Maybe clarify, since most people probably think of it as a network. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC) I've simplified the text by removing "told the site" entirely and just using "She said". This avoids the network/website confusion while maintaining the proper attribution to ABC News. Does this work better? Cherfc (talk) 02:03, 7 February 2025 (UTC) "She is one of the few artists to win three of the four major American entertainment awards (EGOT—Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony)" - weird to bring up EGOT, since I'm not sure now which one Cher didn't win. I suggest rewording. Done. Cherfc (talk) 04:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC) Good job on the article, and I appreciate that you're still working to improve the article. Lemme know if you have any questions about my review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:14, 2 February 2025 (UTC) Thank you for the review and for taking the time to go through the article. I really appreciate the suggestions. I've addressed most of them, but there are still a couple I need to work on, which I plan to tackle over the week. Cherfc (talk) 04:54, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the fabulous work for this fabulous icon! I left a few replies - the article is nearly there for me. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Happy to support now! Thanks for the edits. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:22, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, Hurricanehink! I appreciate your time and feedback. Cherfc (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

Coord note

This has been open for six weeks, and discussion has stalled. Unless there's further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next few days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:29, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Support from SNUGGUMS Comments from SNUGGUMS

Resolved comments from SNUGGUMS

Per Template:Infobox musical artist#genre, it's best to limit genre listings to four at most within the infobox, and you currently have five listed there Removed "disco", the least career-relevant genre of the five. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) The "cultural icon" bit from the lead's first paragraph comes off as puffery, plus that's nowhere to be found in the article body Removed. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) Georgia Holt's birth name seems more appropriate for her own page instead of here Removed. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) "Even at age nine, her voice was unusually low"..... for a child, for a female, or both? Done: "At nine, her voice was unusually low for a female child." Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) It's misleading to have a "I was never really in school" quote when the prose previously talked about academic struggles and school activities I see your point, but I don't think the quote is misleading. The paragraph describes Cher's academic struggles, unconventional behavior and tendency to stand out, all of which support the idea that she wasn't mentally invested in school. Her statement—"I was never really in school. I was always thinking about when I was grown up and famous."—reflects her lack of focus rather than a literal absence. That said, if the transition feels abrupt, a small tweak could help clarify that her remark is about her mindset. For example, adding "Cher later reflected on her lack of focus in school," before the quote could make the connection smoother. Let me know what you think! Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) Yes, specifying she meant a lack of focus definitely would help avoid it seeming self-contradictory, so go ahead with that addition SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC) Done. Cherfc (talk) 02:21, 4 March 2025 (UTC) After the "Garrett knew more about Cher's voice and her persona" bit, you should use the past tense "wrote" instead of "writes" for Mark Bego Done. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) How soon after Chaz's birth did Sonny and Cher marry? Not sure. I did extensive research—consulting books, combing through every Sonny & Cher newspaper mention from 1969 on Newspapers.com and searching California's marriage index (1965–69)—but the most specific time frame I found is the one already in the article: shortly after Cher gave birth to Chaz Bono. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) Only giving "irreconcilable differences" for first divorce sounds vague. If more specific details of what led to her marriage to Sonny ending are known, then I'd include them. I see your point, but "irreconcilable differences" was the official legal reason cited in Sonny's separation filing, which is standard in divorce cases. While their marital issues are well-documented—such as Sonny's history of cheating (see 1967–69 subsection) and Cher's counterclaim of "involuntary servitude"—more specific details about what led to their split aren't verifiable. Cherfc (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2025 (UTC) You could at least talk about whether these or something else are the "marital troubles" that began in 1970 SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC) Done: Cher and Sonny ended their relationship in late 1972 but stayed legally married for two more years to protect their careers.[3] Their relationship had been troubled for years due to Sonny's infidelity and controlling behavior.[4] Cherfc (talk) 02:49, 4 March 2025 (UTC) Am I reading things wrong, or was there some overlap of when the relationships with David Geffen and Gregg Allman took place? It's not entirely clear from the prose when the former began and ended. I've clarified the timeline to avoid any confusion about overlap. The text now states that Cher and Geffen were in a relationship beginning in late 1973 and that she ended it due to his controlling nature and unresolved struggles with his sexuality. It also specifies that she began dating Allman in January 1975, after breaking up with Geffen. I also added a footnote for more context on Cher's relationship with Geffen, based on biographer Tom Writer's account. It explains how their relationship started, their plans to marry, and why Cher ultimately reconsidered. Let me know if anything still seems unclear. Cherfc (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2025 (UTC) "ultimately omitted from the Oscar nomination list"..... not sure how conflicts with a director can prevent nominations (which is the impression I get from what's currently written) I've revised the passage to remove any implication that Cher's clashes with Bogdanovich directly caused her Oscar omission. It now states that she refused to support his call to boycott the film's promotion and includes her public remark about him at the time. Instead of suggesting a direct cause-and-effect relationship, the text now attributes the speculation about her Oscar snub to biographer Mark Bego, who suggested that both her feud with Bogdanovich and her unconventional image may have influenced the Academy's decision. Let me know if any further clarification is needed. Cherfc (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2025 (UTC) Don't hide the "David" part of David Letterman's name when mentioning him outside of show title per WP:NOPIPE Done. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC) When you discuss "affairs with younger men", this gives the impression she cheated on at least one partner, but I can't quite tell whether that's the case when the next sentence just gives names of men without specifying any order or overlaps. Done. Cherfc (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC) I'd attribute a timeframe of 2015 for "Had YouTube existed back then, this would have gone insanely viral the next morning" Done. Cherfc (talk) 15:19, 3 March 2025 (UTC) "Rejected by her label for being uncommercial"..... what exactly constitutes "uncommercial" music? This description is unhelpfully ambiguous when talking about songs, and you'd be better off talking about objections over genre(s) or lyrics. Done: In 2000, Cher released Not Commercial, an album she wrote after attending a songwriting conference in 1994. She chose the title after her label's chief dismissed the project as "nice, but not commercial" and rejected it for its explicit language and unsparing themes, including the suicide of Kurt Cobain, homelessness, veteran neglect and personal trauma. She sold it independently on her website, an unusual move for an artist under contract with a major label. The song "Sisters of Mercy", which describes the nuns who prevented her mother from retrieving her from a Catholic orphanage as "daughters of hell", drew condemnation from the Catholic Church. Cherfc (talk) 02:08, 4 March 2025 (UTC) The common term "alias" doesn't need linking per WP:OVERLINK Done. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC) "Cher's transition to dance music and her social activism have further solidified her status as a gay icon"..... making dance songs on its own has nothing to do with supporting LGBTQ rights or her own sexuality unlike social activism, so adding the former part at best sounds like a stereotype Removed. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC) Chaz Bono only needs to be linked upon first mention within body, so unlink him under "Philanthropy" Done. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC) Don't use italics for E! News (which should just read as E!) or ABC News Done. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC) "Bibliography" is frowned upon as a vague section title, so I'd use something more specific like "Written works" Done. Cherfc (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting to this sooner, but hopefully my comments aren't too late. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:57, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: No problem at all—thank you for taking the time to review the article. I've addressed all the points you raised and made the necessary modifications to clarify timelines, wording and attributions. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the changes and whether they resolve your concerns. Of course, if you have any further suggestions for improvement, I'm happy to make adjustments. Looking forward to your feedback. Cherfc (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Not a problem, and see my above responses. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: Thanks! I've made the necessary updates. Let me know your thoughts and if anything else needs tweaking. Appreciate your time! Cherfc (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome, and I just made a minor tweak here afterwards. Now offering my support following the page's improvements. Well done! SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:58, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: Thanks, I really appreciate your support and feedback—both back then and now! Cherfc (talk) 03:19, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

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