Template talk:Cyrillic alphabet sidebar

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Further proposals

Kepler-1229b has proposed to convert this sidebar to a navbox. I have no strong opinions on this matter.

However, there are other issues with this template. Navigation templates are intended for navigation, while this template contains a significant number of redlinks (with no notability) and redirects. It needs significant abridgement. I assembled a list of all alphabet sidebars I have found at User:Janhrach/sandbox4; you can see that other templates have a much lower proportion of redlinks and redirects, if they have any. Note that Latin-related (Latin has a large number of obscure characters, like Cyrillic) templates list only the basic set of Latin letters, and do not try to list all letters.

– Janhrach (talk) 18:02, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are two options for the redlinks: either create new articles for all of them, or move them to List of Cyrillic letters. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:07, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Articles for non-notable letters should not be created, and the purpose of navigation templates is to list articles (and redlinks, if they have a potential to get articles), not concepts; a navigation template is not a compact version of a list. A small number of redirects is tolerable, but redirects should not dominate a template. Janhrach (talk) 18:14, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I probably partly misunderstood you; if you mean that redlinked letters should be removed, then I agree. I changed my opinion, now I support converting this sidebar into a navbox.

I think such a navbox should have separate rows for (non-archaic) Slavic letters and for historically important archaic letters. Many letters (archaic or not) of non-Slavic alphabets are unnotable or borderline-notable, so I would not list such letters in the navbox. However, a separate row would link every Cyrillic alphabet that has an article (or is notable). Of course, separate navboxes could be created for specific Cyrillic alphabets if desired. Janhrach (talk) 14:14, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another option (not mutually exclusive with removing many of the letters) would be to auto-hide Archaic/Unused and Non-Slavic letters, only showing the most commonly used base alphabet. I definitely agree that the template is too long, especially with the fact that letter pages tend to be quite short. Underswamp (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, autocollapsing navbox sections comes to my mind. Janhrach (talk) 15:18, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Coming up with an early draft at my sandbox, feel free to edit or give notes. Underswamp (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Underswamp: Do you want more time to work on the navbox, or is it ready? (Thanks for your work, by the way!)

@Kepler-1229b: What is your opinion about the proposed navbox? Janhrach (talk) 11:41, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It looks good, but all the currently existing letters should be subsumed under it. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 17:59, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Like I have said, I oppose such inclusion, because majority of the letters are of dubious notability. A compromise solution, which I am willing to agree on, is including only letters without diacritics, as the majority of them merits their own article. (Also compare this to the fact that Slavic letters with diacritics are similarly not included in the navbox.) Of course, even then, there would be some exceptions, e.g. Semisoft sign does not, and probably won't ever, include anything that is not already said at Kildin Sami#Palatalization. But these exceptions could be discussed after the navbox is deployed. Janhrach (talk) 11:52, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that most of the letters in the current sidebar shouldn't be included, especially the letters with diacritics or letters that were only used for a handful of years. A more complete list exists already at List of Cyrillic letters. Certain non-Slavic letters that are commonly used like Ү or Ө I think should be included - these for example are both used by 10+ languages.

All that being said, I'm happy with the new navbox as it is, and I think its ready to be deployed, happy to carry on the discussion and keep it improving it further! Underswamp (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to include (for now) all non-Slavic letters without diacritics as a compromise, and leave the discussion for after the deployment of the navbox. I will return to working on this navbox when I will edit Wikipedia for the next time; I don't have time now. Janhrach (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Underswamp: I have copied the navbox to Template:Cyrillic navbox. Hope you don't mind that it was just a copy-paste move (so history is not preserved), but I thought you may want to retain the history of your sandbox in the original place. If everything is in order, I will nominate the sidebar at TfD and suggest replacing it with the new navbox. Janhrach (talk) 18:13, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, appreciate it! Underswamp (talk) 18:21, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yat with breve Ѣ̆

Does anyone know where the letter Ѣ̆ (yat with breve) was used? I couldn't find any mentions of it on the pages for Yat, Breve, or List of Cyrillic letters. Дядя Мартын (talk) 06:52, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I has a Wikidata item Ѣ̆ (Q28869525), which was created by 1234qwer1234qwer4. Janhrach (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently this was used in some Tver Karelian writing system. I say apparently since it was supposed to occur somewhere in this Bible translation, but I cannot spot it after a few minutes of looking. Either way, it most definitely does not warrant a standalone article. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 18:15, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found an article from 1963 titled "О переводном памятнике карельского языка 20-х годов прошлого века." The article can be found at the following link: http://resources.krc.karelia.ru/library/doc/articles/trudy_1963_39_70.pdf In the article, the author lists 43 signs that were used by the translators. These signs include а, е, о, у, и with breve, and yat itself, but not the "yat" with breve. Дядя Мартын (talk) 05:54, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]