Template:Did you know/Sandbox/Kajaani Castle
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Plifal talk 13:34, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
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Kajaani Castle
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a 1882 drawing of the castle by Jac Ahrenberg
- ... that upon its completion, the Kajaani Castle (pictured) was the northernmost stone castle in Europe?
- Source: Salmirinne, Sini: Pohjolan kivilinna brändätään 2000-luvulle - "Ei linnanrauniot vaan rauniolinna", YLE 6 May 2015. Accessed on 17 May 2025.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Reinaldo Herrera
- Comment:
JIP | Talk 09:03, 18 April 2025 (UTC).
- The article has been expanded by more than 5 times in the past week, no isses with copyright, and the information is cited both in the article and hook. My only question is if the hook could also mention the castle's location in Sweden (fine if not). However, there is significant uncited sections within the article. GGOTCC 21:09, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- I will see if I can find more sources for the article. Both the Finnish and the Swedish articles about the castle have an infobox, I could probably add one for this article as well. I am assuming that it's fine to mention the castle as being in Sweden as the area it's located in belonged to Sweden from when the castle was constructed to well past its destruction, although it's now located in independent Finland. JIP | Talk 21:38, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have citations for Kajaani Castle in literature and From ruin to restoration? If not, the article is not eligable for DYK. GGOTCC 21:45, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- I will see if I can find some sources. JIP | Talk 21:53, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I have now expanded the article adding some more sources. JIP | Talk 16:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP: I still see a lot of uncited information. Many paragraphs lack a ref at the end and sentences are still uncited. GGOTCC 19:18, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I have loaned professor Reijo Heikkinen's book about the Kajaani Castle from the library and added some more references based on it. I also have two other books and will try to see if I can add still more references. JIP | Talk 21:06, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP: Much better, but the last two sentences in From ruin to restoration is uncited. GGOTCC 20:20, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I can see if I can find references for them in professor Heikkinen's book. I can't find any references for them they can just be removed as uncited. I don't think the article will suffer much for that. JIP | Talk 22:28, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP: Cool, I will remove those sentences shortly. There are some other issues with lines such as:
- @GGOTCC: I can see if I can find references for them in professor Heikkinen's book. I can't find any references for them they can just be removed as uncited. I don't think the article will suffer much for that. JIP | Talk 22:28, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP: Much better, but the last two sentences in From ruin to restoration is uncited. GGOTCC 20:20, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I have loaned professor Reijo Heikkinen's book about the Kajaani Castle from the library and added some more references based on it. I also have two other books and will try to see if I can add still more references. JIP | Talk 21:06, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP: I still see a lot of uncited information. Many paragraphs lack a ref at the end and sentences are still uncited. GGOTCC 19:18, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I have now expanded the article adding some more sources. JIP | Talk 16:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- I will see if I can find some sources. JIP | Talk 21:53, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have citations for Kajaani Castle in literature and From ruin to restoration? If not, the article is not eligable for DYK. GGOTCC 21:45, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- I will see if I can find more sources for the article. Both the Finnish and the Swedish articles about the castle have an infobox, I could probably add one for this article as well. I am assuming that it's fine to mention the castle as being in Sweden as the area it's located in belonged to Sweden from when the castle was constructed to well past its destruction, although it's now located in independent Finland. JIP | Talk 21:38, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
- and this also applied to his successor Johan Ulfsparre.
- After several battles, Tysk was feared to be dead, and Finland's equerry Nils Olofsson was appointed as a temporary castle commander. Olofsson did not continue the construction of the castle either.,
- In the third episode of the novel during the Great Northern War in 1776 the character Kustaa Bertelsköld, a Carolean wounded in the war, bears witness along with his wife in the castle to the Russian siege and the castle's surrender. The events also include the real historical persons the castle's commander Johan Henrik Fieandt and the Paltamo-born strongman Daniel Cajanus ("Daniel the Tall") who later achieved fame throughout Europe, who in Topelius's story explodes the castle's gunpowder cellar at the age of thirteen and so causes the destruction of the castle conquered by the enemy.
- Daniel Cajanus also plays a part in Kukkonen's novel following Fieandt's family to prison and on their escape back to freedom.
Since these are substancial parts of the prose, I assumed the refs got mixed up and accidently dropped. Can you make sense of this? GGOTCC 23:47, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I have found references for the third point in your list. I will have to search for references for the remaining three. If no references can be found, the lines might have to be removed as uncited. JIP | Talk 22:56, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: I also found some references for the fourth point but could not find any references for the other two. I have removed the remaining uncited parts. JIP | Talk 13:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP:
Main hook good to go! Thank you for the cooperation! GGOTCC 19:17, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: comment: hi, i'm newly trying my hat at dyk queue prepping, and i noticed that this article has been expanded in size by nearly a third of its current total. is this an issue?--Plifal (talk) 04:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Plifal: The article was first nominated on April 18 when the article was first expanded. I used this version to guage the article size prior a week of editing before 18 April. This version has a prose size of 485 words, compared to 2,862 words from this version when the article was nominated. While the article fails the 5× rule currently, it passed when first nominated. The nomination took a while due to issues regarding uncited info. Is this still satisfactory? GGOTCC 05:20, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: ahh! apologies!! i think there's a misunderstanding, i was looking at the 'procedure' section of wp:dykpbi, specifically, "... that the article has not been substantially edited since the last approval." which when remembering it i thought referred to the date of nomination, but considering you approved this nomination yesterday, i gather this does not apply?--Plifal (talk) 05:46, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Plifal: No worries! Of my understanding (which may be wrong), that point means the article should not have been substantially changed since the hook was approved. If I approved the hook last month, and JIP proceeded to re-do the entire article since then, then that would be an issue. GGOTCC 06:00, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: that's my understanding too. i also found checked the source, however, and this citation has (edit: potential) wp:rs concerns; unfortunately i can't promote this as it is.--Plifal (talk) 06:10, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- also tagging @JIP: can you confirm the source's veracity?--Plifal (talk) 06:12, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Plifal: @GGOTCC: The cited source is from the website of the Museum of Kainuu, which is an officially instituted museum in Finland, and it mentions there was an exhibition about the castle in 2004, and the page mentions the castle was the northernmost stone castle in Europe. Unfortunately, the page itself doesn't exist any more. The exhibition took place 21 years ago. The cited source is from the Internet Archive. I think I found a better source from a simple Google search: Pohjolan kivilinna brändätään 2000-luvulle - "Ei linnanrauniot vaan rauniolinna". This is an article from Yleisradio, the official broadcasting company in Finland. The title says "The stone castle of the North is being branded to the 21st century - "Not ruins of a castle but a castle in ruins", and the text begins "Euroopan pohjoisin kivilinna. Suomen ainoa kaupunkikeskustassa sijaitseva linna. Puhe on Kajaanin linnasta - tai pikemminkin linnanraunioista.", meaning "The northernmost stone castle in Europe. The only castle in Finland to be located in the centre of a city. We are talking about the Kajaani Castle - or more accurately, its ruins." This source is more accessible as the page is still online. JIP | Talk 11:33, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Plifal: No worries! Of my understanding (which may be wrong), that point means the article should not have been substantially changed since the hook was approved. If I approved the hook last month, and JIP proceeded to re-do the entire article since then, then that would be an issue. GGOTCC 06:00, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: ahh! apologies!! i think there's a misunderstanding, i was looking at the 'procedure' section of wp:dykpbi, specifically, "... that the article has not been substantially edited since the last approval." which when remembering it i thought referred to the date of nomination, but considering you approved this nomination yesterday, i gather this does not apply?--Plifal (talk) 05:46, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Plifal: The article was first nominated on April 18 when the article was first expanded. I used this version to guage the article size prior a week of editing before 18 April. This version has a prose size of 485 words, compared to 2,862 words from this version when the article was nominated. While the article fails the 5× rule currently, it passed when first nominated. The nomination took a while due to issues regarding uncited info. Is this still satisfactory? GGOTCC 05:20, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @GGOTCC: comment: hi, i'm newly trying my hat at dyk queue prepping, and i noticed that this article has been expanded in size by nearly a third of its current total. is this an issue?--Plifal (talk) 04:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JIP:
- @GGOTCC: I also found some references for the fourth point but could not find any references for the other two. I have removed the remaining uncited parts. JIP | Talk 13:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
Post-promotion discussion
[edit]... that the Kajaani Castle (pictured) was the northernmost stone castle in Europe upon its completion?
Well, "northernmost" is of course as problematic as "first", so I wondered whether it's even true. I wrote myself a Wikidata query and sure enough, it's not true. Oulu Castle is further north, older and was finally destroyed in 1793, and that was after Kajaani Castle had been built. Referencing could also be better. For example, what does this mean? Kiehtovat Linnat, Kimmo Taskinen & Vesa Sisättö, Tammi 2019, page 33
Schwede66 22:30, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Plifal, JIP, GGOTCC, and Amakuru:.--Launchballer 00:09, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- It means this book: [1], ISBN 978-952-04-0380-5. JIP | Talk 06:51, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- The article Oulu Castle and the Finnish article fi:Oulun linna say the Oulu Castle was made of wood and earth, not stone like the Kajaani Castle. JIP | Talk 06:53, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Schwede66, @Launchballer, i concur with @JIP, also worth noting the Oulu Castle page has citations that seem more unverifiable. if it's still a matter of concern maybe an alternate hook could look like this: "that the Kajaani Castle (pictured) was the northernmost stone castle in Europe at its commission but not upon its completion?"--Plifal (talk) 08:19, 22 May 2025 (UTC)