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Talk:William Plumer Jacobs/GA1

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GA Review

[edit]
Passed. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 18:08, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: PCN02WPS (talk · contribs) 03:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Vigilantcosmicpenguin (talk · contribs) 00:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this one. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 00:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@PCN02WPS: Just wanted to remind you that this nomination has been on hold for a week. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 02:19, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin thanks for the ping - I'm fairly busy IRL at the moment but I will get this done by the weekend at the latest. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:52, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin Just want to make sure I keep up the communication - my goal is to get this done by the end of the day today. Thanks for your patience. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:45, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin all ready for another look. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:04, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very good work on this article. It's pretty much at GA quality now, but I have two small comments, timestamped 20:43, 19 February 2025 (UTC). These will be the only issues left to address. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 20:43, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Vigilantcosmicpenguin Good point on splitting the sentences, that's done. I added another source to the donation bit (it's a news story from Thornwell's website, so not independent, which would have been ideal, but it at least mentions explicitly that it's the "first donation") - if that sourcing is not sufficient for the claim in your view, I understand and I can remove it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:07, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'll say that's good enough. Well done on this biography. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 18:06, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. Prose is clear.
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. Lead section summarizes what is imporatnt about Jacobs. Layout is typical for a biography. No WTW issues.
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. References are listed with SFNs.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). Article is cited to reliable sources, including a subject-matter expert. A primary source is used a lot, but it is appropriately used.
2c. it contains no original research. All information is verified by the sources.
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. Earwig says 10.2%, but only proper nouns.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. Article mentions the main points of Jacobs's career.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Article deals with Jacobs's life without too much detail about his organizations.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. Article mentions positive reception of Jacobs without undue weight.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Article is stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. Images are public domain or freely licensed.
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. Images depict William Plumer Jacobs.
7. Overall assessment. A well-written biography.

Initial comments

[edit]
  • There are a few one-sentence paragraphs that should be merged with adjacent paragraphs.
  • You should probably link to Thornwell Orphanage in the body, not just the lead.
  • What makes Presbyterians of the Past a reliable source? It appears self-published; is Barry Waugh a reputed subject-matter expert?
    • I believe Waugh satisfies WP:EXPERTSPS since he is an established subject-matter expert (MDiv and PhD from Seminary and is currently a church historian in SC) whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications such as The Confessional Presbyterian and the Westminster Theological Journal. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:00, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article relies heavily on Jacobs's diary. It looks like this primary source is mostly used appropriately, but I might suggest some omissions as I look through the article.
  • Perhaps add a photo of Presybterian College? Up to you.
  • I'll be doing some copyedits myself for grammar, conciseness, and clarity.

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 01:09, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

[edit]

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 01:09, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Early life and education

[edit]
  • I think the statement about his graduation in 1864 could be moved to the "Career section", since it'd flow better chronologically.
  • Aged 17, Jacobs was in attendance when the South Carolina General Assembly voted in convention to secede from the United States on December 20, 1860. He was a supporter of secession, and he wrote [...] → Jacobs supported secession from the United States; he was present when the South Carolina General Assembly voted to secede in 1860. He wrote [...]
  • Jacobs's quotes about the Battle of Fort Sumter and about being a "proud citizen" should be removed. This is undue weight on quotes not covered in secondary sources, and the fact that he supported secession is already clear.
  • The date March 15, 1862 is an unnecessary detail.

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 02:02, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Career

[edit]
  • and began teaching Bible classes around the same time
  • The fact about officiating his first wedding is not important.
  • I don't think it's worth mentioning his offers to preach in Georgia and Alabama, but I'm on the fence. I'd be okay with leaving it in.
  • The date March 7, 1872 is an unnecessary detail.
  • the idea of founding an orphanage in Clinton had been brought up some months earlier is an unnecessary detail.
  • Jacobs was said to have had an interest
  • The fact about the orphanage's first donation is not important.
    • Ordinarily I would agree with you but that fact is fairly ubiquitous in most retellings of Jacobs's life (romanticized, perhaps, but it's nearly always there), perhaps because the donation was physically handed to him by this child whom (as far as I recall) Jacobs did not know. I didn't want to get into the more "this is what made Jacobs determined to run a successful orphanage" or what have you, but I still think this fact warrants inclusion based on a survey of the sources. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:25, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove By February 1873, the school had grown to fifty students and three teachers. as it is about the school and not Jacobs himself.
  • In 1875, Jacobs began working as the clerk of the South Carolina Presbytery, an office he held for four years before taking up the same role at the Enoree Presbytery until 1897. → Jacobs worked as the clerk of the South Carolina Presbytery from 1875 to 1879, then at the Enoree Presbytery until 1897.
  • Remove the parentheticals (PCUS; the "Southern Presbyterian Church") and (PCUSA; the "Northern Presbyterian Church") since these short forms are not used.
  • Construction on the orphanage continued throughout the rest of the year, and in January 1875 a date of October 1 was set as a target for its opening. The target was met, and Thornwell opened on October 1, 1875, housing ten orphan children.
  • Details of Thornwell's finances seem mildly unnecessary, but I can see why they warrant inclusion.
  • Remove Jacobs first mentioned the idea of "Clinton College" in his diary on May 29, 1874, and he expanded on this with an idea of turning Clinton High School into a college on July 3, 1875. In 1876, he set out a goal of laying the Clinton College cornerstone before May 28, 1885. Readers don't need to know the exact timeline of Jacobs's ideas; what matters is that he had the general idea.
  • The direct quote "organize the first of his college classes" could easily be paraphrased.
  • Lee was shortly thereafter made the first president of Clinton College.
  • which allowed it to confer degrees for the first time
    • Removed.
  • Remove In July 1885, Jacobs referred to the school as "Clinton Presbyterian College of South Carolina", and later that year he used a variant of the modern name for the first time when he called it "the Presbyterian College of Clinton, South Carolina". as it is unencyclopedic.
  • Remove Four new professors were added to the college in October 1885, including its new president, Robert Perry Smith. as it is about to the school and not Jacobs himself.
  • At this same meeting, Jacobs agreed to lecture weekly on "Bible themes". Unnecessary detail.
  • The paragraph starting with The college had grown to 80 students is cited only to Plumer's diary and contains details about the school and orphanage and not Jacobs himself. The whole paragraph can be removed.
  • By October 1894, the orphanage's assets had grown to over $17,000 (equivalent to $599,000 in 2023). is about the orphanage and not Jacobs himself.
  • Remove Earlier that year, Jacobs had remarked that the orphanage had grown to a size equivalent to that of the town of Clinton thirty years prior., not important at all.

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 02:02, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life and death

[edit]
  • and contributed to their Crypt of Civilization. feels like coatracking.
  • Politically, Jacobs supported
  • and was signed into law several weeks later
  • One of his honorary degrees is mentioned in "Career" and one of them is mentioned in "Personal life". It'd make more sense for both of them to be mentioned in the same section.
  • Contemporary newspaper reports indicated that he died due to "an affection of the heart". → He died due to a heart disease.
  • Remove Jacobs is now the namesake of many aspects of the institutions which he founded and developed.
  • After several renovations, the building currently houses → As of 2024, the building houses
  • Jacobs's personal library has been preserved and is housed on campus Of course it was preserved if it's housed on campus.

— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 02:02, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotcheck

[edit]

I'll be reviewing 8 randomly selected sources. As of this revision.

  1. checkY checkY checkY checkY checkY checkY checkY checkY
  2. ☒N This verifies the fact that Holmes worked at First Presbyterian Church, but it only briefly mentions Jacobs for a different reason, so it's OR to include it.
  3. checkY
  4. checkY
  5. checkY
  6. checkY
  7. checkY
  8. checkY

And every use of the Lynn 1924 source:

  1. checkY
  2. checkY
  3. checkY

Also: Presbyterians of the Past says he stopped working at Duncan's Creek and Shady Grove in 1873, rather than "by December 1868" as you said. It also says First Presbyterian Church dissolved in 1911, which should be included as useful context about why he retired. Both this source and Lynn mention that his father was a reverend, which might be worth including. Lynn also mentions that he got his job at the Carolinian when he was in his junior year; this detail might make the prose flow better.
Placing this on hold for now. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 03:36, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • (Using the same reference numbers as in your permalink above) I'm assuming you didn't spot check references 1–8, since Ref 2 makes no mention of Holmes and, while equally likely as any other random outcome, getting {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8} for a set of eight random numbers would be quite unusual. I'm guessing (hoping) Ref 2 in your list is actually Ref 15, which is about Holmes, though I fail to see how that's OR in the slightest. That sentence is sourced by Ref 14 and 15; 14 talks about Holmes inviting Jacobs and 15 talks about Holmes and his involvement with FPC's organization. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:56, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies for the mistake with the numbering of the list; I made a mistake with the syntax. You are correct that this was ref 15. That being said, I think I was wrong to call it OR, since you have another source mentioning why it's relevant. So there are no issues with the sourcing; well done. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 20:43, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed DC/SG 1873 and moved that so it fits chronologically. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:56, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First Presbyterian is certainly not dissolved; the source says ...and installed in First Presbyterian Church of Clinton beginning a call that would extend from 1864 until it was dissolved July 28, 1911. — "it" refers to "a call", meaning "this is when he preached here". Jacobs resigned from FPC in 1911; that same source says he resigned the First Church call to dedicate his pastoral efforts to Thornwell Memorial. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:56, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that he was working for the Carolinian at the time is sufficient detail in my eyes but I wouldn't remove that if someone else added it; as for his dad, I added a tiny bit about that on the end of that sentence. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:03, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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