Talk:Valluvar (caste)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Request for Correction: Misclassification of Valluvars

Dear Wikipedia Editors, I am requesting a correction to the Valluvar Wikipedia article to align with verified academic research and historical records. The current article states that "Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars." However, this classification is not supported by primary Tamil historical sources or modern academic research. Instead, Valluvars have historically been recognized as an independent priestly caste. 📖 Academic Sources Supporting the Correction 1️⃣ Tamil Literature: Thirukkural (G.U. Pope, 1886) – https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.201097 Purananuru (Sangam Literature) – https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden/TamilTexts/Anthology_of_Sangam_Lit.pdf 2️⃣ Epigraphical Evidence: Early Tamil Epigraphy (Iravatham Mahadevan, 2003) – https://www.ifpindia.org/publications/early-tamil-epigraphy-from-the-earliest-times-to-the-sixth-century-a-d/ 3️⃣ Modern Scholarly Research: The Smile of Murugan (Kamil Zvelebil, 1973) – https://books.google.com/books?id=VF0MAQAAMAAJ Caste in Colonial South India (Nicholas Dirks, 2001) – https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?title=Caste+of+Mind&author=Nicholas+Dirks&publication_year=2001 📌 Suggested Revision of the Article ❌ Incorrect Statement: "Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars."

✅ Proposed Correction: "Valluvars are an independent priestly caste in Tamil Nadu, historically engaged in temple services and astrology."

I request Wikipedia editors to review this request based on the above-mentioned reliable sources and update the article accordingly. Thank you. Vensheela (talk) 15:50, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Subject: Request for Correction of Misinformation on Valluvar Caste

Dear Wikipedia Editorial Team,

I am writing to formally request the correction of misleading and historically inaccurate information in the Wikipedia article on Valluvars. The claim that “Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars” and their classification as “untouchables” lack verifiable academic sources and contradict historical, government, and contemporary research.

Reasons for Correction

1️⃣ No Historical or Government Classification of Valluvars as "Untouchables"

The Scheduled Caste Order of Tamil Nadu (1950, 2007, 2016) categorizes Valluvars and Paraiyars separately, confirming that they are distinct communities.

Valluvars have traditionally served as temple priests, astrologers, and scholars, which contradicts their misclassification.

2️⃣ Colonial Sources Are Outdated and Discredited

The claim is primarily based on "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" (1909) by Edgar Thurston, an outdated colonial source that modern scholars criticize for misrepresenting caste identities.

Contemporary peer-reviewed caste studies recognize that colonial classifications do not reflect indigenous social structures accurately.

3️⃣ Valluvars Were Respected Priests with Distinct Traditions

Valluvars wore the sacred thread (yajnopavita), a practice associated with priesthood.

Sangam literature and epigraphical evidence support that Valluvars historically performed temple rituals and held a respected religious status.

Violation of Wikipedia’s Content Policies

The current content violates key Wikipedia guidelines:

WP:V (Verifiability) & WP:RELIABLE – The claim is based on outdated, non-peer-reviewed colonial sources, not contemporary academic or government records.

WP:UNDUE – Giving undue weight to disproven colonial-era claims contradicts Wikipedia’s neutrality and accuracy standards.

WP:BLP (Biographies of Living Persons Policy) – Since the Valluvar community exists today, publishing misleading information negatively impacts their identity and social standing.

Requested Corrections

We request the immediate removal of:

❌ “Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars.”

❌ “Valluvars were an untouchable caste.”

And request the following historically accurate revision:

✅ “Valluvars are an independent priestly caste in Tamil Nadu, historically engaged in temple services and astrology.”

Next Steps

We urge Wikipedia to act promptly to ensure factual accuracy and prevent the spread of misinformation. If no corrective action is taken, we will escalate this issue to:

✔️ Wikipedia Administrators for content moderation violations.

✔️ Government and legal authorities to address misrepresentation.

✔️ Academic institutions and media organizations to highlight inaccuracies.

This is a request for historical accuracy, not revisionism. We trust Wikipedia’s commitment to factual integrity and expect prompt action.

Sincerely,

R .AZHAGUYUVARAJ

Representative of Valluvar community 223.178.85.77 (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Request to Correct Misleading Information on Valluvars’ Social Status

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

I am writing to formally request the removal or correction of misleading information in the Wikipedia article on Valluvars, particularly the claim:

> "Valluvars were an untouchable caste."

Reasons for Correction:

1. Lack of Historical and Government Recognition of Valluvars as “Untouchables”

The Tamil Nadu Government’s Scheduled Caste (SC) classification lists Valluvars separately from Paraiyars, indicating that they are not a subgroup.

Anthropological and historical records describe Valluvars as a priestly community serving non-Brahmin groups, rather than an "untouchable" caste.

Valluvars wore the sacred thread (yajnopavita), a practice typically associated with higher-caste and Brahminical traditions—contradicting their classification as "untouchables."

2. Outdated and Colonial Sources (Thurston’s Accounts)

The claim that "Valluvars did not eat with Paraiyars and lived away from Paraiyar cheris" is primarily based on Castes and Tribes of Southern India (1909) by Edgar Thurston—a British colonial official whose classifications were often shaped by administrative convenience rather than social realities.

Modern scholars critique Thurston’s caste classifications as oversimplified and inaccurate, making them an unreliable source for contemporary Wikipedia content.

3. Incorrect Association with the Term “Untouchable”

Historically, untouchability was linked to occupations considered "impure" (e.g., leatherworking, sanitation, handling the dead).

Valluvars served as temple priests and were respected for their religious knowledge. Their social role does not align with the communities historically categorized as "untouchable."

No government or historical document explicitly states that Valluvars faced untouchability in the same way as other Scheduled Castes.

Request for Action

I kindly request the Wikipedia editors to:

1. Remove the misleading statement, OR

2. Modify it to reflect a nuanced historical perspective, backed by contemporary academic and government sources.

Request for Correction – Misclassification of Valluvars as a Subcaste of Paraiyars

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

I am writing to request the revision of a claim in Castes and Tribes of Southern India (1909) by Edgar Thurston and K. Rangachari, which classifies Valluvars as a subcaste of Paraiyars. This classification is outdated and lacks support from modern government records and contemporary anthropological research.

Rationale for Revision:

1. Government Classification:

The Tamil Nadu Government’s official Scheduled Caste list separately classifies Valluvars and Paraiyars, confirming they are distinct communities with no hierarchical subcaste relationship.

2. Anthropological and Sociological Research:

Studies by the Anthropological Survey of India describe Valluvars as temple priests, distinct from Paraiyars in social and occupational status.

Modern caste research critiques colonial-era ethnography, including Thurston’s work, for generalizations and inaccuracies.

3. Reliability and WP:RS (Reliable Sources) Policy:

Wikipedia prioritizes recent, peer-reviewed, and government-sourced information over early 20th-century colonial ethnographic works, which are often considered outdated and controversial.

The inclusion of this claim without balancing it with contemporary academic and official sources violates WP:UNDUE and WP:RELIABLE policies.

Request for Action:

I kindly request the removal or contextual revision of the claim to reflect modern, verifiable sources

With Regards, பொதிகை திரு V.S முத்துராஜ்.தமிழ்நாடு வள்ளுவ பேரவை தலைவர்

Vensheela (talk) 15:20, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Request to Correct Misleading Information on Valluvars’ Social Status

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

I am writing to formally request the removal or correction of misleading information in the Wikipedia article on Valluvars, particularly the claim:

> "Valluvars were an untouchable caste."

Reasons for Correction:

1. Lack of Historical and Government Recognition of Valluvars as “Untouchables”

The Tamil Nadu Government’s Scheduled Caste (SC) classification lists Valluvars separately from Paraiyars, indicating that they are not a subgroup.

Anthropological and historical records describe Valluvars as a priestly community serving non-Brahmin groups, rather than an "untouchable" caste.

Valluvars wore the sacred thread (yajnopavita), a practice typically associated with higher-caste and Brahminical traditions—contradicting their classification as "untouchables."

2. Outdated and Colonial Sources (Thurston’s Accounts)

The claim that "Valluvars did not eat with Paraiyars and lived away from Paraiyar cheris" is primarily based on Castes and Tribes of Southern India (1909) by Edgar Thurston—a British colonial official whose classifications were often shaped by administrative convenience rather than social realities.

Modern scholars critique Thurston’s caste classifications as oversimplified and inaccurate, making them an unreliable source for contemporary Wikipedia content.

3. Incorrect Association with the Term “Untouchable”

Historically, untouchability was linked to occupations considered "impure" (e.g., leatherworking, sanitation, handling the dead).

Valluvars served as temple priests and were respected for their religious knowledge. Their social role does not align with the communities historically categorized as "untouchable."

No government or historical document explicitly states that Valluvars faced untouchability in the same way as other Scheduled Castes.

Request for Action

I kindly request the Wikipedia editors to remove the misleading statement

Vensheela (talk) 15:26, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Request for Correction of Misinformation on Valluvar Caste

Dear Wikipedia Editorial Team,

I am writing to formally request the correction of misleading and historically inaccurate information in the Wikipedia article on Valluvars. The claim that “Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars” and their classification as “untouchables” lack verifiable academic sources and contradict historical, government, and contemporary research.

Reasons for Correction

1️⃣ No Historical or Government Classification of Valluvars as "Untouchables"

The Scheduled Caste Order of Tamil Nadu (1950, 2007, 2016) categorizes Valluvars and Paraiyars separately, confirming that they are distinct communities.

Valluvars have traditionally served as temple priests, astrologers, and scholars, which contradicts their misclassification.

2️⃣ Colonial Sources Are Outdated and Discredited

The claim is primarily based on "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" (1909) by Edgar Thurston, an outdated colonial source that modern scholars criticize for misrepresenting caste identities.

Contemporary peer-reviewed caste studies recognize that colonial classifications do not reflect indigenous social structures accurately.

3️⃣ Valluvars Were Respected Priests with Distinct Traditions

Valluvars wore the sacred thread (yajnopavita), a practice associated with priesthood.

Sangam literature and epigraphical evidence support that Valluvars historically performed temple rituals and held a respected religious status.

Violation of Wikipedia’s Content Policies

The current content violates key Wikipedia guidelines:

WP:V (Verifiability) & WP:RELIABLE – The claim is based on outdated, non-peer-reviewed colonial sources, not contemporary academic or government records.

WP:UNDUE – Giving undue weight to disproven colonial-era claims contradicts Wikipedia’s neutrality and accuracy standards.

WP:BLP (Biographies of Living Persons Policy) – Since the Valluvar community exists today, publishing misleading information negatively impacts their identity and social standing.

Requested Corrections

We request the immediate removal of: ❌ “Valluvars are a subcaste of Paraiyars.” ❌ “Valluvars were an untouchable caste.”

And request the following historically accurate revision: ✅ “Valluvars are an independent priestly caste in Tamil Nadu, historically engaged in temple services and astrology.”

Next Steps

We urge Wikipedia to act promptly to ensure factual accuracy and prevent the spread of misinformation. If no corrective action is taken, we will escalate this issue to: ✔️ Wikipedia Administrators for content moderation violations. ✔️ Government and legal authorities to address misrepresentation. ✔️ Academic institutions and media organizations to highlight inaccuracies.

This is a request for historical accuracy, not revisionism. We trust Wikipedia’s commitment to factual integrity and expect prompt action.

Sincerely, S. Balamurali Representative of Valluvar community Vensheela (talk) 03:15, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2025

I request verification of the statement that "Valluvars are a subcaste of the Paraiyar community." Currently, there are no reliable historical or academic sources cited to support this claim.

If this classification is accurate, I request editors to provide credible references from government records, academic research, or scholarly sources. If no such sources exist, the statement should be modified or removed to maintain Wikipedia’s neutrality and reliability.

Please review and address this issue based on Wikipedia’s verifiability policy. Vensheela (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2025 (UTC) Vensheela (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

 Note: I tagged the claim. M.Bitton (talk) 13:35, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

Historical and Literary Evidence on the Independent Status of Valluvars Vensheela (talk) 08:14, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Evidence Supporting Valluvans as an Independent Community

1. Historical and Literary Records:
   • Valluvans have historically served as priests, astrologers, and poets in Tamil society, distinct from the Paraiyars.
   • Thiruvalluvar, the revered author of Tirukkural, is traditionally identified as a Valluvan, reinforcing their unique scholarly and religious role.
   • Source: Zvelebil, Kamil (1973). The Smile of Murugan: On Tamil Literature of South India. Brill Archive.
2. Anthropological and Ethnographic Studies:
   • Studies indicate that Valluvans were respected spiritual figures rather than being associated with labor or drumming, which was linked to Paraiyars.
   • Source: Dumont, Louis (1980). Homo Hierarchicus: The Caste System and Its Implications. University of Chicago Press.
3. Government and Colonial Records:
   • British colonial census reports often misclassified Tamil caste identities, leading to later confusion. Some records list Valluvans separately.
   • Source: Census of India, 1891 & 1901 (Madras Presidency).
   • Modern Tamil Nadu government records also list Valluvans distinctly from Paraiyars.
   • Source: Tamil Nadu Backward Classes Commission Reports.

Request for Correction

The existing claim on Wikipedia lacks verifiable citations and may contribute to misinformation. I respectfully request:

• The classification of Valluvans as a subcaste of Paraiyars be reviewed and corrected to reflect their independent status.
• Editors ensure that all claims are supported by peer-reviewed books, government records, or historical texts, following Wikipedia’s guidelines on verifiability.

I am happy to provide additional citations if needed. Please advise on the appropriate steps to ensure accuracy while adhering to Wikipedia’s policies.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,

Vensheela Vensheela (talk) 16:48, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

 Done The statement is no longer in the article. For the record, this response came after archiving. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:37, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Request for Reconsideration: Addressing Historical Inaccuracy in Valluvar (Caste) Article

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

I understand that the Valluvar (caste) article falls under the scope of WP:GS/CASTE, and my recent edits were reverted in adherence to this guideline. However, I respectfully request a review of these edits to ensure the article aligns with Wikipedia's standards of verifiability, neutrality, and reliable sourcing.

Key Concerns

1. Misrepresentation of Social Status:

The article inaccurately categorizes the Valluvars as "untouchables," which is contradicted by modern academic research.

2. Limited Representation of Historical Roles:

The article narrows the historical roles of Valluvars, ignoring their broader contributions as astrologers, scholars, and priests within Tamil society.

Verified Sources Supporting the Edits

Zvelebil, Kamil (1973) – The Smile of Murugan (Brill Archive) – Highlights Valluvars' scholarly contributions to Tamil literature.

Bayly, Susan (2004) – Saints, Goddesses and Kings (Cambridge University Press) – Provides historical context regarding the distinct cultural status of Valluvars.

Daniel, E. Valentine (1996) – Charred Lullabies (Princeton University Press) – Offers anthropological observations on Tamil social structures.

Census of India (1891 & 1901) – Clearly distinguishes Valluvars as a separate group from Paraiyars.

Tamil Nadu Government Reports – Reflect modern recognition of Valluvars as a distinct community.

Addressing Concerns About Unreliable Sources

While I acknowledge that Thurston's 1909 work is a historical reference, it is outdated and may not align with contemporary academic consensus.

The proposed edits prioritize modern, peer-reviewed sources and official government data, ensuring accuracy and relevance.

I request that statements relying solely on Thurston’s work be reassessed and, if necessary, revised or removed based on contemporary research.

Why These Edits Matter

The objective is to correct misrepresentations and provide a neutral, historically accurate account of the Valluvar community.

The sources cited adhere to Wikipedia’s criteria for verifiability and reliability, stemming from reputable academic publishers and government records.

Request for Review

I kindly request a neutral, extended-confirmed editor to review the proposed edits.

If any sources remain in question, I am open to further discussion or clarification to uphold Wikipedia's commitment to accuracy.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I deeply value Wikipedia’s dedication to neutrality and verifiability and look forward to resolving this matter constructively.

Kind Regards, Vensheela Vensheela (talk) 03:42, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Request for Review: Proposed Edits to Ensure Historical Accuracy in the Valluvar (Caste) Article

Hello @ Daniel case,

I respectfully request your assistance in reviewing my proposed edits to the *Valluvar (caste)* article, which is currently under GS/Caste protection. My edits were reverted, and my account was blocked from editing.

1. 1. 1. **Why I Believe the Edits Are Accurate:**

- The previous version incorrectly described the Valluvars as "hereditary priests for Paraiyars" and as "untouchables." - My edits were based on **verified academic sources** and Tamil literature, ensuring historical accuracy and neutrality.

1. 1. 1. **Key References Used:**

- **Zvelebil, Kamil (1973)** – *The Smile of Murugan* (Brill Archive) - **Bayly, Susan (2004)** – *Saints, Goddesses and Kings* (Cambridge University Press) - **Daniel, E. Valentine (1996)** – *Charred Lullabies* (Princeton University Press) - **Census of India (1891 & 1901)** – Clarifies historical classifications. - **Tamil Nadu Government Reports** – Modern recognition of the Valluvars.

I kindly request that you review my proposed edits for alignment with Wikipedia’s policies on **verifiability, neutrality, and reliable sourcing**. If there are concerns, I am open to discussing and adjusting the content as needed.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Kind Regards, Vensheela Vensheela (talk) 00:22, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

French researcher working on Valluvar community

Dear contributors, I am a french researcher doing my PhD thesis on Valluvar community. I have done a fieldwork in Tamilnad and in Pondicherry, I am still searching informations about the Valluvar : books, notes, works and written sources. I would be very pleased if you can help me in any ways. You can contact me through my personal wiki page. Thanks in advance. Kumara108 (talk) 21:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Valluvars are came from Ayan Clan of Ay Nadu. Nanjil Valluvan, one of the famous king of Vallvuvars was a general of Pandiyan Kingdom. Abisheikvasan (talk) 02:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)