Talk:Sarma (food)

Kohlrollen

They are also a well known in German Cuisine where they are known as Kohlrollen. Is it spelled Kohlrouladen? --buzlink 17:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentence about the German sarma sits quite awkwardly at the bottom of the article. Unfortunately I have no knowledge about this, so I wasn't bold enough to move it in the introductory section during my recent copyedit. Other takers? --Gutza ^{T T+} 02:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was certainly misplaced, so I rephrased it and moved. I also renamed the last section from the rather pompous "Cultural significance" to "Serving"merryXIV 16:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sarmatian dish

Well this complete article is rubbish, the name Sarma comes from a place called Sarma and was adapted by Turks not oposite. 1. It´s made of pork (show me one muslim eating pork) 2. The Place Sarma is the ancient capital of the Alani, who brought this dish to Europe, which makes it a Sarmatian dish 3. The dish is much older that the first time Turk was spelled. Now please somebody correct this article unless there´s only Turks reading Wiki... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.0.50 (talk) 11:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that can be cited for this claim? The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.  --Lambiam 19:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cabbage was also unknown to the Arab/Ottoman World until they came in contact with it in the Balkans. Cabbage spread from Western Europe. Just check history of Cabbage. Sarma is almost the same what ancient Greeks made with Wine-leafs...so no Turks were neccessary to "invent" this. It´s just like Spaghetti, the Chinese invented it but we know it by the Italian name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.12.137 (talk) 17:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

1. According to our Cabbage article: The cabbage is derived from a leafy wild mustard plant, native to the Mediterranean region. It was known to the ancient Greeks and Romans; Cato the Elder praised this vegetable for its medicinal properties, declaring that "it is first of all the vegetables. It was a common vegetable in Anatolia when the Turks came, and in fact in all former parts of the Roman Empire where the vegetable would grow, which is almost anywhere. The information about cabbage spreading from Western Europe, and being unknown to "the Arab/Ottoman World" (really two worlds apart) until "they" (surely not the Arabs) came in contact with it in the Balkans, is totally bogus; do not trust the source claiming that.
2. Nowhere does the article claim, or even suggest, that sarma is a Turkish "invention", but only that the name has a Turkish origin.
3. Cooked pasta-like dough dishes like noodles and gnocchi have almost certainly been invented several times independently, but as you can read in the article on Spaghetti, working pasta into thin long forms is actually an Arab innovation.
4. This discussion is pointless and will remain fruitless unless you can cite reliable sources for your claims.

 --Lambiam 21:55, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

National dish

I think that citing the related meal as a country's national dish is the new way of standing out in the article. I don't think it's really necessary and worth mentioning in the article. Furthermore, as we can guess, there can be numerous countries considering the related meal as their national dish. Shall we keep another long list of national dishes in the article? Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 02:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

An exception might be made if someone can show (with sources) that sarma is considered the national dish par excellence of some country, like fondue for Switzerland and haggis for Scotland. AFAIK sarma is just one of many popular dishes in Serbian cuisine.

That's reasonable, I agree with you. Not only in this article, but in general, if a meal is indeed a "par excellence" of a country, that is worth mentioning, of course along with its references. --Chapultepec (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to merge with Dolma

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was not to merge. Geoff ^{Who, me?} 19:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

---

In most cases people don't make a distinction between the two. Dolma can be (and is often) used for both Dolma and Sarma dishes, but Sarma is sometimes used to dishes that are "wrapped" (i.e. leaf/cabbage dishes). Sarma(Food) need only be a section the Dolma article, not an entire one on its own. Both Dolma and Sarma dishes usually share the same filling and similar preparations etc, and are derived from the same concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alperyasar (talk • contribs) 02:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm agree, same foods!Glavior (talk) 20:59, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So, for you "Enginar Dolma" or "Uskumru Dolma" are derived from the same concept and usually share the same filling with say "Lahana Sarma". Congratulations... --E4024 (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

chrismas eve

It is not traditional in Croatia (and Serbia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina) to eat meat on Christmas eve, because usually fasting last until mass on Christmas eve (Badnje večer). Sarma is eaten on Christmas day, both for catholic and orthodox. Bosniaks (muslims) do not celebrate Christmas. Please correct:

Yummy, Yummy :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.238.65.171 (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

References

"Grape leaves"

Although strictly speaking these are the leaves belonging to the grape, they are always known in English as "vine leaves" (not "wine" with a "w" - the reference is not to the drink but to the plant). I actually had to stop for a moment to think what "grape leaves" was supposed to mean, then I remembered the Greek dish "dolmades", which is known in English as "stuffed vine leaves". "Grape leaves" is not an acceptable alternative - the term is simply never used by native English-speakers. I'd correct this myself, but the first reference is a link to the "Grape" article, and I don't want to damage the link by changing the word - the link from "vine" to an article called "Grape" may in any case be confusing. At one point this appears as "leaves of grapes", which sounds even less English - this too should become "vine leaves". I can only conclude this article has been written by a non-native user of English who did not bother to have it checked first by a native one.212.30.86.78 (talk) 11:54, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

The term grape leaf is widely used in the United States, where "vine" refers to any climbing or winding stem. I have reverted the term to grape leaf because it is less ambiguous. Recognize North (talk) 07:46, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Monk's rhubarb / patience dock

These two names for the same plant are used indiscriminately in this article, as if they were different species. Since the link takes you to an article called "Patience dock", I suggest this term be used throughout.212.30.86.78 (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Vine leaf roll

It would be better to create the food spinouts as they are needed, this article can merge into the parent without overburdening it. Both have been stubs since 2005. Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Merge with "Vine Leaf Wrap" article?

Both articles cover the same material. Vine leaf wrap is just Sarma using vine leaves. It's not a separate dish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertan92 (talk • contribs) 13:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support merge of Vine leaf roll into Sarma (food). Subset of same thing, identical photo, different names in different languages, WP:CONTENTFORK. I know these as dolmades; for which see Dolma#Wrapped Sarma, which says the {{main}} article is Sarma (food). As earlier discussions in this thread show, there's often petty nationalism in claiming a dish as native to one culture or another; when all that matters in English WP to enable English-speakers to find what they're looking for as easily as possible and to keep WP:POV out of it. Narky Blert (talk) 09:55, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Support Well, I moved some of the details about sarma here not for reasons of language but for practical reasons that the sarma section was becoming rather long relative to the other sections and risked overburdening the article. I'm not expecting this to be controversial since the vine leaf roll article is mostly a copy of content from this article, so I will merge them sometime in the next few days. Seraphim System ^(talk) 14:39, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 18:55, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Rhetorical Practices from the Ancient World to Enlightenment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2023 and 3 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alucard 7.33 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Alucard 7.33 (talk) 13:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 February 2025

Sarma (food) → Stuffed grape leaves – There are clearly many names for this, which differ from country to country. I am aware that Sarma is common in Turkey, Armenia, and maybe Serbia, but it's not the name in Greece, the vast Arab and Assyrian cultural regions, Iran, Azerbaijan, etc. Per WP:COMMONNAME, why don't we just go with the most common English term? Wolfdog (talk) 15:15, 18 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 02:23, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I think in the UK, “stuffed vine leaves” is more common than “stuffed grape leaves”. Not sure what variant of English is used for this article. Rafts of Calm (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

  Interesting! Typing site:.co.uk "stuffed vine leaves" into Google I get 18,700 hits and for site:.co.uk "stuffed grape leaves" 20,000 hits, so both are quite popular -- perhaps a slight edge still for the latter. Wolfdog (talk) 13:52, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  I’d suggest it’s more effective to look at what term reliable sources in the UK use, such as recipe books and supermarket listings. Vine leaves is considerably more popular. Rafts of Calm (talk) 19:09, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

  I would consequently support stuffed vine leaves. Rafts of Calm (talk) 13:12, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment Anecdotally, there is no WP:COMMONNAME for this specific food in the US; it is simply referred to by the imprecise name Dolma. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 08:45, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  Agreeing with that anecdote, I thought it was called dolmeh (or dolme). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 09:06, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

  I suppose anecdotally I disagree. No one is confused about what "stuffed grape leaves" means. "Dolma" to refer to them, on the other hand, is both broader and somewhat less well-known. More to the point: Any ideas for how to find evidence stronger than just our own impressions? Any data harvesters out there? Wolfdog (talk) 11:16, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

• Weak support per WP:NATURAL. I'm "weak" because I'm not convinced the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME. Steel1943 (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
• Comment First let me say, I think dolma and sarma probably shouldn't have separate pages. It's the same stuffing in different vehicles, often cooked in those separate vehicles in the same pot. Now as to the issue of the name, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what would be the best solution. "Dolma and sarma"? I don't love that, but it's still the best I can come up with. "Filling stuffed into a vegetable or wrapped in grape leaves"? Obviously a disaster and not usable, but describes what we're talking about. So that's as much as I can contribute right now. Maybe it will spur some thoughts in a direction that can work more effectively and logically. Oh, and about the other conversation, stuffed grape leaves is better than vine in my opinion, but we also use cabbage leaves, so... RaffiKojian (talk) 20:26, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

According to this article, "Sarma is part of the broader category of stuffed dishes known as dolma". But as far as I can tell, the article fails to identify any distinction between the two. Are there any distinctive characteristic(s) that exist for establishing sarma as a sub-category of dolma? Are they simply synonymous terms? I suspect that someone thought that sarma implies the use of grape vine leaves, while the broader category of dolma can use other wrappings. But that contradicts what the rest of this article says, since this article includes the use of wrappings other than grape leaves. If that is not what the distinction is, then what is it? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:40, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Please see below for clarification about that issue. Apparently, dolma could refer to a stuffed bell pepper or other vegetable as well, not just a leaf wrap. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support as proposed, it's better than nothing Red Slash 19:06, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support, as proposed or move to "Stuffed vine leaves" or "Stuffed vegetable leaves" or "Stuffed leaves" or "Stuffed leaves (food)". These seem more recognizable to most readers of English than the current title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:35, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

Relisting comment: It is clear that this article is going to be moved, but the target is unclear between the top choices, Stuffed grape leaves and Stuffed vine leaves. Absent further participation, I would be inclined to find that the latter has more support as a move target. BD2412 T 02:23, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

• Disagree in many countries it is made primarily (if not exclusively) with cabbage leaves. In the article the word 'cabbage' occurs 21 times, more than either 'grape' (19) or 'vine' (14) (which often occur together). Mentioning 'grapes' or 'vine' in the title while omitting 'cabbage' would misrepresent the contents of the article. merryXIV (talk) 13:44, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

  They all seem pretty common then. Do you have a better alternative name that could encompass them all? Wolfdog (talk) 15:04, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Three were given in my 8 March comment above. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:20, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

What about simply Stuffed leaves? Rafts of Calm (talk) 17:59, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Sorry just noticed BarrelProof already suggested this - I agree with this suggestion. Rafts of Calm (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Not really. I'm just pointing that the proposed solution does not solve the problem, it only translates it to English.

The very general 'Stuffed leaves (food)' you proposed is perhaps the best compromise. But I was responding to the original proposition, 'Stuffed grape leaves' (and the equivalent 'Stuffed vine leaves'). merryXIV (talk) 19:53, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

I think the '(foods)' bit is unnecessary. Rafts of Calm (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

What's the problem you're referring to? The one I mentioned: that this dish has multiple names? Again, I think it does solve this problem, since we all understand the English label, even if we can explain that some other leaf wrappings are also typical. Ngrams by the way also supports "stuffed grape leaves" as being by far the common name (but admittedly Ngrams for British English, to Rafts' point, indeed shows "stuffed vine leaves"). However, my second choice, if my first doesn't gain consensus, would be the more encompassing Stuffed leaves. Wolfdog (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

The problem is that we don't have a proper name for this dish. 'Sarma' has the advantage that it covers all types of wrappings, but indeed may be confusing to people that don't know the word.

I have just discovered the article Cabbage rolls - that does not cover vine leafs, but links to this page as 'vine leaf rolls'.

Perhaps the solution would be to edit this page to take out the cabbage references and rename it to 'vine leaf rolls' (consistent with 'cabbage rolls').

Or merge the two pages, but then under what name? 'Stuffed leaf rolls'? 'Stuffed leaves dishes'? Even better: 'Leaf wrap dishes'? merryXIV (talk) 14:31, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

What do you think of Stuffed vegetable leaves? That seems more clearly a food than Stuffed leaves to me. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:17, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

I'd, for one, weakly support that. Wolfdog (talk) 00:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Well, I don't think vine is a vegetable.

I just suggested in another comment 'Stuffed leaves dishes' - and merge with Cabbage roll Or even better: 'Leaf wrap dishes'? merryXIV (talk) 14:33, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Leaf wrap dishes seems pretty good, but does that mean that a merge with the Dolma article is needed? Do the two terms have the same meaning? While we're at it, does anyone want some tasty gołąbki along with their cabbage rolls? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:43, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Not Dolma but the Cabbage roll article. And yes, Gołąbki as well. Dolma is any stuffed vegetable, including Sarma but also stuffed bell peppers etc. merryXIV (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification. I just edited the Dolma article to clarify that by saying "inside a leaf wrapping or a vegetable such as a bell pepper" instead of "inside a vegetable or a leaf wrapping" (which sounds like "wrapping" could apply to "vegetable", as with cabbage). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Move to "Stuffed leaves": appears to be the only name which avoids ethnic/cultural ties and encompasses the various kinds of leaves used. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:00, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

• Weak support: See all my talk above. Wolfdog (talk) 23:32, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

  Stuffed grape leaves are more general and do not segregate between different cultures TenBlueEagles (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

• Move to stuffed leaves per Howardcorn33. This seems to get around the issues. I would oppose a move to stuffed grape leaves, because as a UK reader that title doesn't meet WP:RECOGNIZE. I would think that was something different from the stuffed vine leaves with which we are familiar.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:12, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

  I agree you TenBlueEagles (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

  Support Stuffed leaves - where I live, "stuffed grape leaves" (or more likely, just "grape leaves" depending on who you ask) are the more common vernacular, however there are many other foods that use other leaves, and this is a good choice to cover them - if there is enough coverage of other recipes, including their history, etc, we can always split later. ASUKITE 17:14, 26 March 2025 (UTC)