Talk:Racine (disambiguation)

Requested move 1 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. The precise level of detail in the hatnote may be decided upon separately. Favonian (talk) 16:43, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Racine → Racine (disambiguation) – In the same manner that Apollinaire redirects to Guillaume Apollinaire, Balzac redirects to Honoré de Balzac, Baudelaire redirects to Charles Baudelaire, Corneille redirects to Pierre Corneille, Diderot redirects to Denis Diderot, Proust redirects to Marcel Proust and Sartre redirects to Jean-Paul Sartre, so should Racine redirect to Jean Racine. A giant of French literature, he is the only one listed at Racine (disambiguation) who is known as simply "Racine". The sole competition of any consequence seems to be from a small-to-medium city (population 79,000), Racine, Wisconsin, which would not be referenced as simply "Racine" outside of Wisconsin. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support one of the few cases where there really is a primary for a surname In ictu oculi (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support sound the alarms, when IIO and I agree that should justify an automatic speedy close in support. LOL. Kudos to Roman for the compelling case he put together. --В²C ☎ 18:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's because we're applying the guidelines to help readers to a topic which for once actually belongs in an encyclopaedia rather than e.g. forcing them at a piece of random passing fancruft. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above. Clearly primary redirect here. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 20:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on principle because simply listing other cases of mononym primary redirects does NOT give evidence that THIS one is appropriate. No page view stats nor other objective measure have been brought to this discussion, so we have nothing to base this on other than the gut feelings. -- Netoholic @ 21:00, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Given the large number of meanings, even Fr:Racine is a DAB page and if there is no primary topic in French, I doubt that there will be one in English. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jean Racine is referenced in Western literature as simply Racine in the same manner as William Shakespeare is referenced as simply Shakespeare. There are 20 entries listed at the Racine disambiguation page (with three additional names at the Jean Racine (disambiguation) page) and none of those, except for the dramatist, would be indicated throughout the English-speaking world or anywhere else as simply "Racine". As for French Wikipedia, the editors there appear to be inconsistent in creating surname-based primary redirects. Some obvious ones, such as Balzac, Baudelaire, Diderot, Proust or Sartre do exist, but Fr:Apollinaire and Fr:Corneille do not redirect to their obvious targets and neither do Fr:Byron, Fr:Dickens, Fr:Keats, Fr:Poe, Fr:Strindberg, Fr:Wordsworth and various others. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The French Wikipedia actuall has it as a DAB because "racine" is French for "root" of which Racine, Wisconsin was named. Per WP:USENGLISH and WP:FORRED we don't generally take into account words in other languages and the fact that it is a DAB on Fr, rather than the root article being there is good evidence that Jean Racine must be prominent there. Given that Jean Racine is a level 4 vital article he dominates in a Google search for Racine. However as we don't have stats for people using just "Racine" for searching for him, I'll Weak support but recommend that we put a direct link to Racine, Wisconsin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course all redirects of this nature have hatnotes, such as — For other uses, see Apollinaire (disambiguation) or "Balzac" redirects here. For other uses, see Balzac (disambiguation). Thus, if the nomination succeeds, there would be — "Racine" redirects here. For other uses, see Racine (disambiguation) and Jean Racine (disambiguation), in a manner similar to the current hatnote at — This article is about the poet and playwright. For other persons of the same name, see William Shakespeare (disambiguation). For other uses of "Shakespeare", see Shakespeare (disambiguation) — but consensus would ultimately decide if a separate hatnote is needed to solely cover Racine, Wisconsin, a city of 79,000 which is not a state capital and has relatively limited status both internationally and nationally. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 17 April 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Racine (disambiguation) be renamed and moved to Racine.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Racine (disambiguation) → Racine – The primary topic was redirected here due to this RfD (which changed the target of Racine from Jean Racine to this disambiguation page), but the disambiguation page is now malplaced. Opening this as a formal RM due to disagreement at the RfD, and the prior RM. Natg 19 (talk) 19:11, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the nomination and the four votes in support (with one oppose) of Jean Racine being the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the Racine (disambiguation) page in the six-and-a-half-year-old Talk:Racine (disambiguation)#Requested move 1 November 2018, directly above. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support since the RfD close was not challenged, leaving this to be a standard WP:MALPLACED/WP:DABNAME fix. Steel1943 (talk) 20:47, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per consensus at RFD. 162 etc. (talk) 02:43, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It may be helpful to quote the final RfD vote: "Procedural close as incorrect forum, and start a WP:RM instead. I would have closed and performed the move myself if it was not for Roman Spinner's !vote (the nom of the original move), even though none of the other participants of that move discussion pitched in here despite being pinged. And any other editors who have Talk:Racine (disambiguation) on their watchlist may not be aware of this RfD happening. It is only proper to overturn an RM with an RM.", followed by a quote from the RfD close: "There is also here a rough consensus in favour of moving, but this is not the proper venue for that, and for a proper discussion an RM should be advertised as an RM. Anyone is welcome to start a new RM at Talk:Racine (disambiguation)." Thus, although the redirect was moved, both the move and the consensus achieved at the RfD are apparently expected to be confirmed by a full discussion on the merits of the case here at RM. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:43, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I saw that, which is why I didn't just move this page (in addition to your "oppose" vote.) However, the fact that we have to have an RM for this after consensus was established somewhere is incredibly bureaucratic when WP:DABNAME/WP:MALPLACED designates this move should have happened as soon as Racine targeted Racine (disambiguation). Steel1943 (talk) 21:00, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your frustration with the process and, indeed, many or most of the notable French literary surname examples submitted in the 2018 RM were created unilaterally and thus RfD would be the appropriate forum if any user has issues with those. The surnames that do make it to RM for primary consideration are usually sparsely attended, with the obvious exception being the current Trump → Trump (disambiguation). Another presidential surname currently under discussion with, needless to say, much smaller attendance, is Taft → Taft (disambiguation).

Other current surname discussions focus upon Spengler → Spengler (disambiguation)/Spengler (surname) and Weber → Weber (disambiguation). Recent (in 2025) successful surname nominations include Veblen → Veblen (disambiguation), Khachaturian → Khachaturian (surname), Loesser → Loesser (surname), Tokarczuk → Tokarczuk (surname), Baryshnikov → Baryshnikov (surname), Nureyev → Nureyev (surname) and Glinka → Glinka (disambiguation). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:21, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Steel1943 here. This was already discussed and consensus determined at the RfD - that Jean Racine is not the PT. If you disagree with the RfD result, you should be contesting it with the closer. I only opened this as a formal RM because I knew someone would reject the RMT (technical move request). Natg 19 (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support WP:MALPLACED. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:25, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support WP:MALPLACED. MrKeefeJohn (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and redirect Racine to Jean Racine per the RM above. Very clear primary topic. Since when does an RfD overrule an RM? RM is the correct place for proposed moves like this. It should never have been discussed there. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]