Talk:October 2024 Deir al-Balah mosque bombing

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Bad categories

@Oneequalsequalsone You reverted my change on this page and a number of other ones with no explanation at all.

This page and it's sources make no mention at all of "massacre" or "murder" but it's somehow been put to into those categories. Can you explain your justification for putting these categories back?

It does give the impression of blatant POV pushing. Bob drobbs (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I did give explanation in my edits but I will repeat it here: These are clearly massacres. Let's take the event in this article as an example: it mentions 26+ killed, people sheltering who had been displaced, including women and children. The definition of massacre that Wikipedia gives:

A massacre is an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless

Exactly this ↑ happened. It is not mentioned explicitly that it is a massacre because it is plainly obvious from what it says transpired. To remove these categories would itself be POV pushing. Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 15:32, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a clear violation of Wikipedia:No original research.

"The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be verifiable in a reliable, published source"

There is no justification for calling a massacre within the article because none of the sources say it is. Likewise, it's not your role as an editor to bypass the rules regarding sources and simply declare it as a "massacre" or "murder" though the use of categories because you believe it is. Bob drobbs (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

These are massacres by definition, it has nothing to do with belief or original research. Ask an administrator to comment on this if you'd like Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 15:43, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to follow your logic the category "2024 in Islam" should also be removed because Islam is not explicitly mentioned Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 15:44, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"2024 in Islam" should probably aslo be removed. What's the definition and scope of that category? And what does this incident at all have to do with Islam?

You think everything that happened regarding any mosque anywhere in the world in 2024 should be listed in a category "2024 in Islam"? Bob drobbs (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a look at the pages in the category, you can see how it relates Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 21:32, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If these are clearly massacres then surely it should be possible to provide one or more sources that have described them thusly? If editors are unable to do so, then I believe we should be using the terms that are supported by sources. DonIago (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Again, these are massacres by definition. Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 17:51, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Then finding a source should be abundantly easy to do. DonIago (talk) 19:13, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/10/6/palestinians-killed-in-israeli-attack-on-mosque-in-gazas-deir-el-balah

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israeli-massacres-in-gaza

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/live-blog-israel-still-blocking-gaza-ceasefire-as-war-hits-one-year-hamas-18216474 Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 19:42, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, as you must know, that the mainstream media sugarcoat this with their wording, as they have done many times in the past (c.f. 2003 invasion of Iraq, War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)) when it in their interest to do so. So the NY Times will obviously not come out with a headline "Israel murders/massacres a couple dozen people"; but when one reads that those killed are not combatants and had only been looking after their families, then it is by definition a massacre. Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 20:03, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

~~The second source makes no mention of this attack. The final source discusses this attack but specifically does not call it a massacre.~~

~~The first source has unnamed sources quoted as saying "it's a massacre". IMO that's a very low bar to call something a "massacre", but it's better than nothing.~~

~~But are there any sources anywhere calling this "murder" or "mass murder"? If not, how are you justifying keeping those categories.~~ Bob drobbs (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@OneequalsequalsoneUpdate, I was just given the policy for categorization: Wikipedia:Categorization#Verifiable

Please read the entire thing, but I've included some key excerpts here:

Verifiable: "It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories"

Neutral: "... Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate"

Defining: "...A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic..."

According to policy, the categories for "murder", "mass murder", "massacre", and "crime" do not belong in this article because they're not neutral, not defining, and not verifiable.

To qualify, you'd need sources consistently referring to this incident in these terms. Bob drobbs (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Per policy, I'm going to be re-implementing my changes which were reverted.

@Oneequalsequalsone Per policy, instead of using categories you should feel free to create list pages for any of these controversial categories. But on these list pages everyone will be, of course, required to back up any claims like "mass murder" with reliable secondary sources. Bob drobbs (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the time to keep trying to reason with you but I will link this comment of yours here for reference to future readers: [1] Oneequalsequalsone (talk | contribs) 18:52, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to do that I guess. But since April 8th, I found the policy which is here and it seems very clear:Wikipedia:Categorization

Any time that I'm deleting categories in the future, I'll link to the policy. Bob drobbs (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]