Talk:Murder of Felicia Gayle

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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:

September 22 to 28, 2024 (8th)

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

No consensus, 25 September 2024, to Murder of Felicia Gayle and execution of Marcellus Williams, see discussion.
Not moved, 12 October 2024, to Execution of Marcellus Williams, see discussion.

Use of the word "accused" as a section heading

@PARAKANYAA the meaning of the word "accused" is "to charge with an offense judicially or by a public process"[1]. The meaning of the word "perpetrator" is "A person who perpetrates something, esp. a crime or evil…" [2]. I think it is better to use the word "Accused" for the section heading about Williams because he was accused. Most reliable sources that reported on the topic of this article have said that Williams might not have committed the murder (e.g. [3][4][5][6]). If Williams was innocent he would not have been the perpetrator so calling him the perpetrator in Wikipedia's voice would not align with most sources. In the case of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., most reliable sources report that James Earl Ray did assassinate Martin Luther King Jr..

Edit I am talking about: [7] Gideonrmt (talk) 17:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was criminally convicted as the perpetrator. Him being labeled “the accused” carries the connotation that he was not actually convicted of the crime. I’m open to changing it to something other than perpetrator but “accused” implies that he was not convicted, whether he did it or not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about "Convicted"? Gideonrmt (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also sorry if I was being a little unreasonable. I do see your point now and I think "accused" could be confusing. However, "perpetrator" could also be confusing. Thanks for explaining! Gideonrmt (talk) 19:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Convicted I have less issue with. Just not "accused". PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kcmastrpc Most RS describe Marcellus Williams as "convicted in the 1998 killing of Lisha Gayle"[8] and seemingly intentionally do not refer to Williams as the perpetrator. Therefore, calling Williams "perpetrator" in wiki voice is WP:POV. Can you think of a different name for the section? Gideonrmt (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at a number of other "Murder of ..." articles and I couldn't find any that use "Convicted" or "Perpetrator" as a subheading. Most of them just name the individual who was found guilty under a background section, eg (Background > John Doe). I believe it's appropriate to just follow that approach and we don't try to tie transitive verbs as section headings. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Just for clarification would reorganizing the sections to look like this work?

1 Background
1.1 Felicia Gayle
1.2 Marcellus Williams

Gideonrmt (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, I think that'd work. Thank you! Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Innappropriate lead image

The lead image seems like it is inappropriate for the article, especially since the event in focus is much later in Gayle's life. Especially considering the biases being discussed in public right now, and that we are using a non-free image, it would be far more appropriate to have a picture when she was working as reporter (the subject matter). 22:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC) Sadads (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are very few images of her later in life relative to the ones of her younger. There is at least one, but I forgot where I saw it, but most are from substantially prior to her death - and iirc she doesn't really look that different. It could probably be replaced with a later image but first we would have to find one from a verifiable origin and then confirm that it was in fact from later on. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a later one. The quality is worse and I have no idea when it's from but she certainly looks older, so... PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I also found a good resolution image of Gayle here. (I couldn't find the date and whether this image was "recent" to her death or is an old image of her.) However, it could be a good image candidate because of the quality and that Gayle in the image there looks more or less at the time of her death. I don't know what you think? Here: https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/breaking-death-row-killer-marcellus-711655

Here I found the same image in an article from The Times with better quality. But it is an article that you have to "pay" to see: https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/convicted-killer-avoids-death-penalty-with-plea-deal-for-life-in-jail-knbswhxg0 PuzzleSolved999 (talk) 01:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PuzzleSolved999 To me she looks younger in that, so I'd bet it's further from the date. But we have no dates for these photos. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 20:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Murder of Felicia Gayle → Execution of Marcellus Williams – I think it is clear, judging by the sources used in the article already, that the only notable component of Felicia Gayle's murder is that the accused, Marcellus Williams, was convicted and executed despite indications to his innocence. If there was no doubt to Williams' guilt, this article would not exist, making an article split inappropriate. Furthermore, I do not think titling it just "Marcellus Williams" makes sense either, as we are not writing about the man, but the process of conviction, the repeated execution stays, and the actual execution. Horep (talk) 15:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Redundant. WP:RGW. This is a waste of editor's time @Horep. Please close this as only a few days ago a similar proposal was closed with no consensus, and the only editors who were in support of renaming to Execution of Marcellus Williams were also in support of the previous proposal. I don't see how anything has changed in the past three days. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was basing this request to move off of WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE, specifically that "As this result does not indicate a consensus for the chosen title, anyone who objects to the closer's decision may make another move request at any time, and is advised to create such a request instead of taking the closure to move review." I do think most people would agree that the current title isn't appropriate, with people either wanting to split the article up, or rename it to something about Marcellus Williams. Horep (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The execution is as a result of the murder; furthermore, the execution has only received a burst of coverage when it happened, while the murder more so fulfills WP:NEVENT. Also, no - this article is seven years old! This case had interest beyond just Williams. Speedy close due to the fact this was considered and rejected along with the last proposal. People keep saying that Williams is the only notable aspect of this, basing their judgement purely on the last month’s paper coverage. Yes, of course that is what the recent news will focus on. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose We've already been through this. Editor is just unhappy with the result and trying again, swiftly close please. Inexpiable (talk) 08:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This discussion seems to have already taken place. MisterWat3rm3l0n (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The move above was rejected and there is no need to rehash an already resolved argument. Dashing24 (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Per PARAKANYAA. Srnec (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The most "notable component of Felicia Gayle's murder" is a woman's murder! Everything else happened because of that. This was only decided a few days ago. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Horep: - Darn. I'm sorry I missed this discussion. The would have been a good move. Folks complaining that this move was considered recently were wrong. The move recently considered above was not to "Execution of Marcellus Williams". This move proposal was basically a different move. NickCT (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but it was discussed as a proposal in that move, and also shot down. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you say "shot down" the closer actually proposed a follow-up RfC for that move, right? So the closer clearly thought the move might be viable in a follow-up RfC. Who was the move "shot down" by? NickCT (talk) 18:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horep How do we remove the "Marcellus Williams" redirect here to create a Marcellus Williams page? (RESPECTFULLY, RIP Felicia Gayle)HumanWritesBook (talk) 22:43, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

pov

So far as Williams’ guilt or innocence are concerned this article seems to me to violate NPOV. ELSchissel (talk) 23:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Marcellus Williams should be a Page not a redirect here * RIP Felicia Gayle & RIP Marcellus Williams

I would like to build a Marcellus Williams page -- for "Marcellus Williams" is not a "1988 murder in St. Louis, Missouri, US" and "Marcellus Williams" should not be a subject redirected here, respectfully, RIP Felicia Gayle & RIP Marcellus Williams.

@Mpen320 @OwenX and fellow Wikipedians, Marcellus Williamsa deceased former Missouri Death Row innmate whose murder conviction was publicly scrutinized and openly contested and internationally protested over findings that the conviction was "entirely based on the inconsistent and unverified testimony of two incentivised witnesses." https://www.virgin.com/branson-family/richard-branson-blog/marcellus-williams-is-innocent, https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/24/us/marcellus-williams-scheduled-execution-date/index.html, https://innocenceproject.org/cases/marcellus-williams/, https://apnews.com/article/missouri-execution-marcellus-williams-8be20e2f252992610a30fa0cfef4185a Please weigh in ... HumanWritesBook (talk) 22:23, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]