Talk:List of bisexual characters in television

Character That Shouldn’t Be On This List

I noticed George Oscar “Gob” Bluth is on this list when his sexuality has been stated as gay a couple times by the creator, Mitch Hurwitz. Among those examples, there is a Deadline article in which Mitch Hurwitz says, “For us, the more interesting thing was giving Gob the gay storyline, because it’s usually the macho, overcompensating guy who turns out to be gay.” Another instance of this is in an entertainment weekly article: “Hint from Hurwitz: ‘He is on a bit of power trip, and he's in charge of the company... He's not the ladies' man he thought he was — and he might be in love with Tony Wonder.’” While not explicitly stated in this second quote, “he’s not the ladies’ man he thought he was” heavily implies it. And combined with the previous statement that says he is gay, it makes it pretty clear what he meant(he also on top of that uses the phrasing “gay panic”).

Here are the links to those articles: https://deadline.com/2018/06/arrested-development-mitchell-hurwitz-jeffrey-tambor-netflix-interview-1202403117/ https://ew.com/tv/arrested-development-season-5-teases-season-4-recap/ AdamFriedman42 (talk) 13:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

(Excuse me for deleting this and resending it, was on accident) AdamFriedman42 (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m dumb, I figured out how to edit so…I guess just ignore this then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamFriedman42 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't revert your removal, but I don't agree with it. When Hurwitz says "gay storyline", I believe he's saying "gay" as one component of being "bisexual". Prior to the Tony Wonder story arc (and after?), there's plenty of portrayal as him being sexually interested in women, too. My two cents. _signed, Willondon (talk) 18:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I see two problems: (1) you deleted a character that was supported with a reliable source (|title=GOB Bluth |url=https://bi.org/en/bi-characters/gob-bluth |website=Bi.org), and (2) your interpretation is based on vague wordage because neither one of your two selected sources specifically and unequivocally say that George Oscar “Gob” Bluth is gay. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 10:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Exclusion of non-binary & transgender characters

I'm unsure why neither non-binary or transgender characters are included on this list. The hatnote says they're listed in other articles, but there's no reason they can't be listed here as well. If this list is to be accurate, it should list all notable characters, not only cisgender ones. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Why shouldn't nb (Q) and trans (T) characters be included in the lists that exist specifically for non-binary and transgender representation? What, then, is the point of having distinct lists for all the separate identities of the L-G-B-T-Q community? Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 11:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the point of exclusion here as categorically, they're bisexual. They should be included in both lists as they aren't mutually exclusive identities. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 12:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

My position on it would be IF said characters have verifiable/reliable sources showing they are bisexual, fine, but otherwise, no. I think said characters should be listed in lists specifically for non-binary and trans characters and on this list, again, ONLY if there are reliable sources showing these characters are bisexual. That's a big sticking point with me because people tend to add characters onto pages (sadly, too often) like this but NOT provide sources, which is a pain to try and monitor and remove those characters who the user claims are bisexual, but then provides NO source(s). Also, my memory as to why trans and non-binary characters weren't included is that... there are very few of them with reliable/verifiable sources. I may be wrong, but that's my memory as to why that was done. The compromise was to have them be on their respective pages instead. If you would like to take on finding said characters and listing them here, that would be great.--Historyday01 (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'll see what I can do. I only came to ask due to being confused by the hatnotes. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 15:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Right. So, the only characters I found listed on the List of fictional non-binary characters page but not here, include:

• Carlos Cervantes in The Winchesters (noted by Pride.com as "a nonbinary, bisexual demon hunter")
• Jim Jimenez in Our Flag Means Death (noted by GLAAD link calling Jimenez a "nonbinary and bisexual pirate"

And on the List of transgender characters in television, the following are listed:

• Mae Martin in Feel Good (only cites an episodes for saying she is bisexual though, and this implies it, but doesn't directly say she is bisexual)
• Mo in Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist (the actor says here: "Mo originated as a 31-year-old bisexual black woman")
• Arun Parmar in Bad Girls (cites an Instagram post which ONLY notes the character as trans, but only I guess implies the character is bi)
• Drew Reeves in Dead of Summer (cited article only talks about Drew as a trans character)
• Max Sweeney in The L Word (only cited on page 8 of GLAAD's report as "The female-to-male transgender character")

So, if we get down to it, only three of the characters listed above (Carlos Cervantes, Jim Jimenez, and Mo) could be added to this page, as they are the ONLY ones with reliable sources presently showing them to be bisexual. If the others could have reliable sources showing they are also bisexual, then a section could be more more justified.--Historyday01 (talk) 15:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Trans characters can just be included into the binary sections without issue, with Mae Martin though, they said in an interview "I wrote a love story with a character who is non-binary and bisexual".

I'm still slowly looking through the lists & trying to find better, more clarifying sources, if available. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 16:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Great! Historyday01 (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

So far, I've found

• Viktor Hargreeves from Umbrella Academy

• Paula from Two and a Half Men

• Micah Lee from The L Word: Generation Q

• Max Sweeneyfrom The L Word & also The L Word: Generation Q

• Maura Pfefferman from Transparent Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

And let's be clear about the sources that are unacceptable as cited references:
▷ "personal websites. personal and group blogs, content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites....Examples: ...Facebook...Fandom...IMDb...Instagram...Reddit...Snapchat...TikTok...Tumblr...Twitter...and Wikipedia (self referencing)".
As for self-published sources (such as websites and social media accounts of actors):
▷"Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves...so long as: The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; It does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities); It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject".
I'm particularly tired of editors who only cite an episode (as if all editors and readers have access to every cable channel and OTT platform) but provide no published source for it so that what is being alleged cannot be confirmed by those of us who do check sources. Editors who see and/or hear something about a character but do not provide reliable published sources that specifically say the character is bisexual, etc., are making WP:OR edits.
Also, sources that only describe a character as "queer" are useless in lists that are for specific identities. Now that Q has been added to the LGBT, if someone wants to create a "List of queer characters in television" they are welcome to do so and they can then use sources that only say "queer". Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 23:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you there. I am also tired of editors who only cite an episode as a source, but provide no published source, as it assumes that everyone has watched said episode and knows what happens. I do think these days that good writers do tend to describe specific identities of characters and even more, some who create series directly describe those entities. There also can be interviews with actors who talk about the identity of a character they play. I have, personally, tries to remove episode citations from articles I've edited, but sometimes those citations creep back in when I'm not looking. As for sources that only describe a character as queer, I can agree that is useless in a list like this. I do think it can have a place on pages like List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–present. Maybe a list of queer characters could be good, except I think there would have to be guidelines to circumscribe its scope, as it could get far too large. Historyday01 (talk) 01:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This is an example of a problem that has vexed these L, G, B, T (and now Q) lists for a long time. Characters with "sources" that say nothing about their specific identity are no different from characters that have no sources for them. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 09:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with that and your edit there is a the right call. It is a tough job to try to root out the characters with bad sourcing. I've tried my part to do it, but I'm only one person and sometimes entries get past me. I've even thought of calling for a task force for pages with LGBTQ characters in animation, but never went through with that. Historyday01 (talk) 13:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)