Talk:Letter to Yi Ŭngt'ae

Letter to Yi Ŭngt'ae is currently a World history good article nominee. Nominated by seefooddiet (talk) at 03:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

An editor has placed this article on hold to allow improvements to be made to satisfy the good article criteria. Recommendations have been left on the review page, and editors have seven days to address these issues. Improvements made in this period will influence the reviewer's decision whether or not to list the article as a good article.

Short description: 1586 Korean letter from widow to husband

Letter to Yi Ŭngt'ae was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 12, 2025, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Translation

After a few quick searches, I couldn't find a translation that's unambiguously copyright-free, so I wrote one myself. I'm not 100% confident in minor details in it, but I like it better than I like some other popular translations that gloss over some details in the letter (and are written a little flowery beyond the original content of letter).

The quote about 'see and have something to say' confuses me, maybe I'm just mistranslating or is it referring to something only the couple would know about? toobigtokale (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Letter to Yi Ŭngt'ae/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Seefooddiet (talk · contribs) 09:40, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 02:36, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Query

~~@Seefooddiet:, why do you think you are a significant contributor to the article ([1])?~~ Borsoka (talk) 02:42, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka: That was my previous account that I retired per WP:RTV; see my user page where I disclose that. I'm the author of the page seefooddiet (talk) 02:45, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

~~File:Wons-mother-letter-lee-eung-tae.webp: the source is unclear; this is a letter by a mother to a son - why is it relevant in the article's context?~~ Borsoka (talk) 04:41, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

? This is the letter being discussed in the article. This isn't a letter from mother to son, it's the letter from mother to Lee Eung-tae. seefooddiet (talk) 05:21, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

~~Is Won's mother identical with the author of the letter mentioned in the article? If yes, I think the file's title should be changed.~~ Borsoka (talk) 04:36, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The file title is fine imo, it's descriptive and either way shouldn't matter for the GA. seefooddiet (talk) 05:08, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

One of the sources is an acedemic monograph about the letter, other sources includes newspapers, television programs that are deemed as reliable.
Reference 1 is listed 11 times, but it is linked to a very short page. Are you sure the reference is correct?
The translation of the title of reference 1 should be improved.
~~Is reference 14 a reliable sources. Further details of the source are needed.~~ Borsoka (talk) 04:41, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 1 has multiple tabs. How should the translated title be improved?

In this case each tab should be cited separately. Is this a peer-reviewd academic work? For instance, "The letter of Yi Ŭngt'ae's wife, Hangul".

Ref 14 isn't the most reliable; I replaced it with a more reliable academic paper. seefooddiet (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Seefooddiet: could you answer my question about reference 1 and address the issues I mentioned? This one is one of the articles' principal sources. Borsoka (talk) 06:36, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I just saw this and have been busy. I don't think this was grounds for failing. seefooddiet (talk) 03:05, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to our relevant policy, "You are expected to respond to the reviewer's suggestions to improve the article to GA quality in a timely manner." If you do not have time to address issues, do not nominate the article. Borsoka (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I renominated and it'll pass the next time. seefooddiet (talk) 03:30, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Letter to Yi Ŭngt'ae/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Seefooddiet (talk · contribs) 03:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: ThaesOfereode (talk · contribs) 20:19, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Heartbreaking but interesting article. See notes below. If there's anything you disagree with, feel free to push back; I think I'm a fairly lenient reviewer when it comes to precise verbiage. Overall, very nice article. ThaesOfereode (talk) 20:19, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Prose

Lede

Right now, the lede is insufficient; it's only two sentences. Remembering that you don't need to cite anything in the lede that's already found in the body, the first paragraph should tell us about the letter itself: who wrote it (Yi's wife/Won's mother), what its contents are (general overview is fine), when it was written (1586, Joseon era), why was it written (again, general overview is fine), and how it survived (buried with author). It seems very odd to me that it begins with the year of its discovery. The second paragraph should explain everything else: who/what/why/when/how it was discovered, its importance to the linguistic and cultural study of the period, and its relevance to modern Korean culture (plus anything else you feel is particularly noteworthy).

Background

was the second son of father Yi Yosin. → was the second son of his father, Yi Yosin or was his father's – Yi Yosin – second son., whichever feels more natural to you.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He died at the age of 31 (possibly from an epidemic, based on letters from Yi's father[4][5]), → Ŭngt'ae died at the age of 31 – possibly from an epidemic, based on letters from his father[4][5] – – We just introduced Yosin, so it's probably best to specify here. Also, just get rid of those parentheses; I don't think they add anything here.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
and was survived by a young son (possibly around 5–6 years old[6]: 24:15 ) and a pregnant wife. → and at the time of his death had a young son, possibly around 5 or 6 years old, and a pregnant wife. – "Survived by" is considered one of the "words to watch" (WP:SURVIVEDBY), else mostly just suggestion; feel free to push back as necessary
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not much is known about Yi's wife, the author of the letter, although the name of one of the two children is given as "Wŏn" on the letter (it is unclear which child the name belonged to[7]), so she is now often called "Wŏn's mother" (원이 어머니). → Little is known about Yi's wife, the author of the letter. Since name of one of the two children is given as "Wŏn" on the letter – although it is unclear which child the name belonged to[7] – she is often referred to as "Wŏn's mother" (원이 어머니).
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside, have you considered adding an image of Joseon art? A piece showing a slice-of-life of period-appropriate nobility would be excellent.
- File:Danwon-Huwonyuyeon.JPG, File:Hyewon-Ssanggeum.daemu.jpg, and File:Middle Class in Joseon.jpg are great examples of what I'm talking about, but they are far later in the Joseon period.
- I'll keep a lookout for pics but nothing comes to mind. seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discovery

His body had been mummified – Purposefully or as a consequence of the environmental conditions? In either case, can we clarify this for the reader?
- Done. seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
beloved in the family → beloved by the family
- Done. seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other materials in tomb

The clothing included a mix ~~of clothing~~ from Yi, the infant child, and Wŏn's mother
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Examples ~~of clothing~~ included
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
aekjureum – Since this doesn't have a link, can we get a brief description? Similarly, do aekjureum or dongja have a corresponding Korean-language article?
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
do not discard this..."[7] – Period needed after the quote but before the citation.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It reads "Using – Needs colon after "it reads"
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way you can incorporate the last paragraph into another to comply with MOS:PARA?
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Description/Text

Let's merge these two sections; no clear reason to delineate except maybe subordinating the "Text" section to the "Description" section.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can we get this line by line instead of block texts or at least paragraph by paragraph? It looks very strange on my screen, but I think the use of something like {{Verse translation}} may help.
- Done; Korean is often difficult to translate line-by-line to English because of differing sentence order, but I managed to pull it off by adjusting translation slightly. seefooddiet (talk) 19:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
placed on Lee's chest – Who is Lee? This is also found in the "Analysis" section.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis/Legacy

I think we can probably combine these two as well.
term 자내; janae → term 자내 (janae)
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
which later declined → which gradually declined – Sounds more natural I think.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Combine second paragraph of "Analysis" into one sentence (recommend linking with a semicolon in place of the period) and move to preceding paragraph.
- Kinda done in another way seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Combine the first and second paragraphs of "Legacy".
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The story of the couple has been fictionalized in novels and plays. – Any noteworthy ones?
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 19:52, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it was reported that many visitors to the Andong National University museum were said to be members of the Goseong Lee clan that wanted to see the letter. – Either cut out it was reported that or said to be.
- Done seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Is there anything of value in the "Further reading" link? Seems like another English-language source might benefit the reader.
- Looks like the shoes may have been "love tokens". The language used is "vernacular", which is clearly pertinent.
- Added seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Cosmopolitan and Vernacular in the World of Wen 文" references the language used in the letter. Might be useful and can be accessed through the Wikipedia Library.
- To my knowledge it's just a brief mention; nothing substantial I think. seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently there is a reference in Epistolary Korea: Letters in the Communicative Space of the Choson, 1392–1910 (and here on JSTOR), but I don't have access at this time (service issue with the WPL). If you can't get access, may be worth putting in the "Further reading" for someone who has it.
- Can't access even with WPL, put in section seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Since I do not speak Korean, I will assume the Korean sources are faithful by virtue of WP:AGF; that said, I will look very closely at the Lee source (and any of the recommended English sources, should you choose to use them). Source review to follow.

Discussion

Thank you for the review, I'm a bit preoccupied irl, but will respond soon :) seefooddiet (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! I will also be fairly busy over the coming weeks, so please feel free to take your time with this. ThaesOfereode (talk) 11:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Making inline replies above. seefooddiet (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@ThaesOfereode: I think I addressed everything. seefooddiet (talk) 19:52, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]