Talk:Layser Cave

Archaeology Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Archaeology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Archaeology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArchaeologyWikipedia:WikiProject ArchaeologyTemplate:WikiProject ArchaeologyArchaeology
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Caves Low‑importance

	Earth sciences portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caves, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of caving and cave articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CavesWikipedia:WikiProject CavesTemplate:WikiProject CavesCaves
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

United States: Washington Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Washington (assessed as Low-importance).

Rock shelter or cave?

Reaching out specifically to @Langcliffe and to any members of @WP:CAVES...

First, as always, deferring to others on cave expertise.

Second, (considering how cool awesome the WP:CAVES project and members are...) not wishing to have any massive argument or edit war, only making sure the article is as spot on as possible. You all are why I reached out in the first place!

The article after creation had its infobox designation changed from "cave" to "rock shelter", as well as the lede removal that the cave is a karst. See diff - 1282595256. I understand why...

...however(!), in every source used in the article, Layser Cave is consistently referred to, or defined as, a cave. The term, rock shelter, is not used nor in the manner of the Wikipedia definition of the rock shelter article...yet, the landform is described has having been a temporary shelter for indigenous people. I grant this - Layser Cave does fit the geological Wikipedia rock shelter article definition. Concern is, the sources don't. Can it be both? If so, would it be possible to be added back on the List of caves in the United States article as well? Maybe not impressive in size, but the archaeological value is certainly large. Again, I admit I am no expert here and yet we have to follow the source material, too. I think it's a bit between a rock and a hard place...thank you, I'll be at the Comedy Store all week.

In some of the science references in the article (and others I did not use due to repetition), the cave is referred to as a karst or "pseudokarst". This is where my limited geology knowledge goes from useless to non-existent. According to both the source material and a karst definition, Layser Cave was formed by the "dissolution of soluble carbonate rocks". How can we reconcile this difference?

Defer, defer, defer...as above, want to make sure we're getting it right. I am completely willing to let things stand but I don't want to ignore the source material, either, leading to an article that is right in two different directions - by logical definition but also right by the references - creating a competing definition. I'll make no changes unless members of WP:CAVES believe it prudent.

My thanks!

OlympiaBuebird (talk) 17:11, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@OlympiaBuebird. Technically, Layser Cave may be described as a 'cave', but in the vernacular, exogene caves of which this is an example, are more commonly used by the more descriptive term 'rock shelter'. As far as 'karst' is concerned, you say that it is formed within basalt (you actually say "composed of", which is saying that a void is made of basalt!). Basalt is not susceptible to karst erosion, as are soluble rocks such as limestone, chalk, and gypsum. The reference you use refers to 'pseudokarst', which means having the appearance of karst without being karst. To describe it as karst is incorrect. I hope this clarifies. Langcliffe (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. To borrow from Donny Rumsfeld a bit, I know what I don't know. Thanks for the help!OlympiaBuebird (talk) 16:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]