Talk:Kievan Rus'

The common English-language name for the medieval state centred around modern-day Kyiv is Kievan Rus'

Although the modern-day capital of Ukraine is commonly spelled Kyiv in current English, per the Wikipedia policy WP:COMMONNAME and the community consensus outlined on this talk page in April 2021, we use the spelling for the medieval state that is the more common name in English-language historiography, which is Kievan Rus', not Kyivan Rus'. This is not a comment on the identity or association of the medieval state to any modern country, language or culture; it is merely the spelling by which it is more commonly known in English-language literature.

Please do not request that Kievan Rus' be changed to Kyivan Rus': any such request will be denied.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

RM, Kievan Rus' → Kyivan Rus', Not moved, 19 April 2021, discussion

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Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2025

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Change the current map of Rus in the ‘Names’ category to the correct one. Now it’s plain wrong. The Rus did not exist only of three principalities at any moment. Novgorod and other principalities must be included with definite borders, not inaccurately handdrawn circles. Llllll11112 (talk) 23:28, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 14:54, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Probably this is about the map showing Rus in the narrow sense. I think it's fine to have a map illustrating it as all other maps show Rus' in the broad (and more commonly used) sense. Alaexis_¿question? 23:39, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To delete a reduntant part [also known as Kyivan Rus'] in preamble?

Should we delete this part? It is "known as Kyeivan..." only in the recent few years, due to meme-forcing it into political/historian discussion by politically biased actors in 2022+. If was never "known as "Kyivan Rus"", and such butchering of historiographical object is pretty damn ugly! :/ 77.40.103.172 (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No. The variant name Kyivan Rus' appeared in English-language scholarship by the 1950s (Oreletsky's 1957 article "The Leading Feature of Ukrainian Law" in The Ukrainian Review), and it has been used by publishers such as Cambridge University Press (Plokhy's The Origins of the Slavic Nations, 2006), Routledge (Rubin & Snyder's Post-Soviet Political Order, 1998), Manchester University Press (Smoke's Perceptions of Security, 1996), and Encyclopedia Britannica (Ukraine – History, section "Kyivan (Kievan) Rus"). It is neither "recent" nor "never known". Doremo (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The mentioned Oreletsky was a Nazi activist and a member of Nazi OUN, and I think his works can not be held to high accountability standards of worthy literature. The aforementioned Plokhiy, Timothee Snyder and other Ukrainians sources are heavily biased and should be taken in account, just as Russian authors should not also. Let's stick to common Western, unbiased, sources. 77.40.3.181 (talk) 16:11, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

{should be taken in account} is a typo, I meant {should NOT be taken in account} 77.40.3.181 (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. There is a very long and very strong community consensus that the WP:ALTNAME Kyivan Rus' must be mentioned in the opening sentence of this article based on WP:NPOV. Community consensus on the phrase also known as Kyivan Rus', first formulated as such on 15 November 2022, has been established in January 2023. This was merely a confirmation of many years of small changes to the way Kyivan Rus' was mentioned in the opening sentence, sometimes preceded by or, alternatively, sometimes, or also (see the Sept/Oct 2022 discussion for reference when the community agreed to change sometimes Kyivan Rus' to also Kyivan Rus'). Ever since January 2023, only vandalism has attempted to remove or change it, but it has always been restored. Arguments to remove Kyivan Rus', but to keep Kievan Rus', or vice versa, are WP:POV in nature, do not conform to policy, do not enjoy community consensus, and need not be considered. NLeeuw (talk) 14:36, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

1444 Map.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

rusĭskaja zemlja

@Mellk, I can't find this name in Duczko on pp. 60, 248. Could you double-check it? Alaexis_¿question? 20:00, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

'The area between the lakes was the original Rus, and it was from here its name was transferred to the Slav territories on the middle Dnieper, which eventually became "Ruskaja zemlja"—the land of Rus.' (p. 60)
'The Middle Dnieper with Kiev together with Chernigovshchina on the Desna comprised Rhosia, the land of Rus, the "Russkaja zemlja", the domain of the Rurikids.' (p. 248)

Mellk (talk) 04:10, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Sorry, I forgot that ь used to be a vowel in Old East Slavic. Alaexis_¿question? 13:27, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What are those two efns?

In the first sentence, following the bolded instance of the article title. What are these footnotes? What are they supposed to be telling us? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 08:57, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Notes ^[a][b] are sources attesting the spelling Kievan Rus′, and notes ^[6][7] are sources attesting the spelling Kyivan Rus′. Doremo (talk) 09:42, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

no such thing as "Kievan" Rus'

There was never a country by the name of "Kievan Rus'", just "Rus'". The former is an invention by 19th century propagandists of country known today as "Russia", trying to imply the existence of any other Rus' (before then, <adjective> Rus' meant solely an administrative division of Rus'). I'd suggest editing the lede accordingly. -KiloByte (talk) 21:50, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]