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Sources for article expansion

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This article in the Daily Mail is obviously a silly ref for a proper historical article, but does flesh in quite a bit of the last days of the Jianwen Emperor. Surely some of the names or stories could be used to find sources to include the information? — LlywelynII 09:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Status of the Prince of Fu's temple name

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I cleaned up some text reporting that

The Prince of Fu, self-proclaimed emperor of the Southern Ming, granted him the temple name Huizong (惠宗) in 1644, but this name is not generally remembered or accepted in the official Chinese histories.

and – in the absence of my own source – left it unchallenged, but (a) it's unsourced and (b) the Chinese version of this page uses precisely that temple name as its main heading. Is that owing to some odd and POVy policy over there? or is this claim just wrong? — LlywelynII 04:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Jianwen Emperor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 14:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 11:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Image review

The picture was uploaded to zhwiki quite a while ago, so I'm not sure about its specific origin. Min968 (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My problem is that for the time being no reliable source verifies that it depicts the Jianwen Emperor. Borsoka (talk) 02:42, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Borsoka Removed. Min968 (talk) 06:36, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No other image depicting him? Borsoka (talk) 03:59, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, there isn't any. Min968 (talk) 06:37, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Please copy here (on the review page) the texts verifying the following statements from the article:

  • He was a mature and direct child, and was well-liked by the emperor.
    • The young prince was described as precocious, filial, and upright, and his grandfather was said to have been qite fond of him. Chan (1988), p. 184.
  • As crown prince, he criticized certain laws and statements for being excessively harsh[j] and advocated for their abolition.
    • The Chien-wen emperor considered parts of his grandfather's statutory codes too harsh, in particular those punitive provisions set forth in the pronouncements and notices. He had reportedly encouraged the Hung-wu emperor to eliminate seventy-three such clauses from his codes during his lifetime. Upon his own accession, he forbade trial verdicts based on the pronouncements and suspended posting of the notices, skillfully concealing what was in fact a repudiation of his grandfather's injunctions by formally observing the statutory code. Chan (1988), p. 189.
  • Known for his gentle nature and adherence to Confucian principles, he was deeply concerned about the harshness of his grandfather's policies. As a result, he aimed to bring about significant changes in the political landscape.
    • His moderate character and Confucican education led the young emperor to feel real concern about the effect his grandfather's resessive administration had had on the common people, and he was attracted to an ideal pattern of benevolent rule. Thus, he stove to bring about major changes in the tone and conduct of government, and these changes brought disastrous consequenses. Chan (1988), p. 186.
  • The Jianwen Emperor abolished the unfair tax system of the previous era, particularly the excessive taxes imposed on Jiangnan, specifically Suzhou and Songjiang prefectures.
    • In the fiscal field too, the Chien-wen court devised new measures to miyigate certain excesses of the previous reign. The most significant of these were the reducion of the inordinate land tax in Kiangnan and in particular in the rich prefectures of Soochow and Sung-chiang. Chan (1988), pp. 189-190
  • In the ensuing clashes, the imperial palace was burned down. Three bodies found at the cremation site were later identified as those of the emperor, his wife, and their eldest son.
    • During the melee tha followed the arrival of the prince armies, the imperial palace compound inside the Nanking city walls was set ablaze. When the fire subsided, several badly burned bodies were produced and declared to be those of the emperor, his empress Ma (married in 1395), and his eldest son Chu Wen-kuei (b. 1396). Chan (1988), p. 201.

Borsoka (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Zhu Yunwen was born on 5 December 1377 I would rephrase the introduction to make it clear that Jianwen Emperor an Zhu Yunwen are one and the same ("The future Jianwen Emperor was born on 5 December 1377 and was named Zhu Yunwen...", or something similar.)
  • ...the founder and first emperor of the Ming dynasty I would refer to China somewhere in the sentence.
  • Upon assuming the imperial title... When?
  • He was described... By whom?
    • The young prince was described as precocious, filial, and upright, and his grandfather was said to have been qite fond of him. Chan (1988), p. 184.
      Again: by whom? The article does not clarify it.
  • ...his future role as regent I do not understand the reference to his role as regent.
  • ...Confucian values... Link Confucian and add one or two examples.
    • ...presenting the empror as a filial son and a benevolent ruler, a paragon who followed the advice of Confucian scholars... Chan (1988), p. 185
      Again: add one or two examples. The article still does not mention any of them.
  • ... lack the necessary toughness... I would delete "the necessary".
  • Rephrase note "f".
    • Fixed.
  • His gentle nature and adherence to Confucian principles made him acutely aware of the harshness of the Hongwu Emperor's policies. Rephrase to avoid to present Jianwen's PoV about his grandfather's harshness as a fact.
  • ...and predecessor, the Hongwu Emperor Delete.
  • ...saw a decrease in their power... Is this grammatical?
  • A link to "chengxiang"?
  • Why do not you follow chronology when presenting changes in central governmnet: 1. Central Secretariat is abolished 2. the office of Chancellor is restored.
  • ...the Central Secretariat was abolished... Why?
    • The cental administrative organs that had been eliminated with the abolition of the Secretariat in 1380, ... After the Secretariat was abolished in 1380... Chan (1988), p. 187
      Again: why? The article does not answer the question.
  • ...which strictly prohibited the restoration of the chancellery in any form... Why?
    • Withholding that was but a formal gesture towards the first emperor's Ancestral injuntions, which strictly forbade the appointment of chancellors. Chan (1988), p.187
    • :Again: why? The article does not answer the question.
  • A link to "rank classes"?
    • Done.
  • The number of departments and ministry officials was altered,... I do not understand it.
  • He also strengthened the academy's influence in educating princes. What did he do exactly?
  • Some introduction to the Zhou dynasty? (E.g, "ancient Zhou dynasty"?)
  • After the Jianwen Emperor's overthrow, his reforms were criticized for deviating from the principles of the dynasty's founder and were subsequently repealed. I would move this to section "Legacy".
  • As crown prince, he criticized some of the laws and statements of the previous emperor, the Hongwu Emperor, as being too harsh. After taking the throne, he cancelled these laws, but his successor, the Yongle Emperor, later restored them. The first sentence should be mentioned in the previous section, the second sentence in section "Legacy". Could you list here some examples?
  • Despite this, there was still a noticeable shift towards supporting the Yongle Emperor among the Buddhist community. Why is this relevant?
    • Done.
  • These uncles were granted ... and were given ... Why not past perfect?
  • Were Zhu Su, Zhu Gui, Zhu Bo, Zhu Fu and Zhu Pian his uncles? If yes, they should be introduced when the uncles are first mentioned.
    • Done.
  • Clarify that Kaifeng and Yunnan are cities in central and southeastern China.
    • Done.
  • The main long-term target of the government's measures and the most dangerous opponent was Zhu Di. Repetition.
  • ...the Nanjing government... What?
  • ...the emperor finally permitted Zhu Di's sons ... to return to Beijing.... Why?
    • Fixed.
  • ...(Jingnan campaign).. Delete and link it to "the war" in the same sentence.
  • He justified his rebellion in letters sent to the court in August and December 1399, as well as in a public statement. Delete.
  • ...In the year 1400... Delete "the year".
  • Link "war of attrition".
  • ...Zhu Di focused on a war of attrition starting in the autumn of 1400 Rephrase.
    • Fixed.
  • Link "rocket weapons".
  • Link "eunuchs" to Eunuchs in China.
  • Link Grand Canal and explain its relevance.
    • Heeding the advice of thepalace eunuchs who had been spying for him, he skirted the fortified stronghold along Grand Canal... Chan (1988), p. 200
  • Introduce Xuzhou.
    • Done.
  • Is the reference to Zhili helpful?
    • The prince pushed further south, capturing Hsu-chou in northwestern Nan Zhili on 3 March. Chan (1988), p. 200
      I would explain in the article with two or three words why Zhili was important.
  • ...he lived in anonymity as a Buddhist monk... I think you should first mention that he survived the fire.
    • Done.
  • ... who himself lived under house arrest from 1450 to 1457... Why not past perfect?
    • Done.
  • ...the legend of his abdication ... The legend of his abdication is not mentioned previously.
    • Done.

Borsoka (talk) 13:34, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka: Some of the points above are done. Min968 (talk) 09:27, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • However, it seems that... Delete.
  • Delete the Chinese form of the princes' name in section "Reduction of the princes' power", and also the references to the year of their birth and death (or rule?).
  • ...of the Ming armies... Delete.
  • Despite the government's attempt to stop the rebel advance by sending General Xu Huizu to the north, they were unable to do so. Rephrase.
  • The commander of the government fleet... Can you name him? Do we know why?
    • Two day laters, the assistant chief commissioner Ch'en Hsuan, who was in command of the river fleet, defected to the prince, whereupon his troops gained the means to cross the Yangtze. Chan (1988), p. 200
  • Although the Yongle Emperor... Who is he?
  • Link temple name.
  • Introduce Zhu Yousong.
  • Link and introduce the Qing.
  • (Lead) ...at the age of 37... Delete.
  • (Lead) Fearing the potential power of his uncles, the Jianwen Emperor attempted to restrict their influence. Delete.
  • (Lead) One of the most dangerous uncles was Zhu Di, Prince of Yan, who was put in charge of the Beijing region and was responsible for guarding the border with the Mongols. When the emperor ordered the imprisonment of his uncle's followers, Zhu Di plotted against him. Rephrase.
  • (Lead) ..., along with his ... mother, and eldest son... Is not verified in the main text.
  • (Lead) thus, he did not grant him a temple or posthumous name and... Contradicts the lead's first sentence. Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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