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Consensus on 1st Paragraph

Ok then, since ive noticed nobody has disagreed with the 1st paragraph of the introduction, im posting it here again, and id like to confirm with you all, do you agree with this edit being posted on the main page? If we all agree to it, this would mean reaching consensus. Please be aware that edits reached in consensus are not to be reverted.

Proposal for the 1st paragraph:

Falun Gong, (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") also known as Falun Dafa, (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of "mind and body cultivation" introduced by Li Hongzhi (whose surname is Li) to the public in 1992. Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, refers to five sets of meditation exercises, and spiritual teachings based on Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance. Mr. Li says that what he calls the cosmic characteristic of the universe, the principles of Truthfulness-Benevolence-Forbearance, is the criteria for judging all sentient beings. He claims that the Falun Dafa cultivation system is one of the means to provide salvation for mankind.

You may state your opinion here.--Andres18 14:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The last two sentences are incomplete or misleading and must be considered in conjunction with the second paragraph below. --Tomananda 17:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that it is "incomplete" or "misleading"? Cultivating Truth-Compassion-Forbearence is EXACTLY what Falun Dafa is about Omido 17:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your version is incomplete and misleading because:
According to Li, it's not just the principles of Truthfulness--Benevolence--Forebearance which determine which sentient beings are being "weeded out". Li has repeatedly and unequivocally defined certain categories of beings who will be weeded out in the Fa-rectification. For example, "the vile party" (the CCP) and "all those who help them" will most definitely be weeded out according to Li. In other words, there is no cosmic principle of the universe which functions independently from Li himself, according to Li. As long as Li claims the absolute authority for determining what categories of beings get weeded out..and he certainly does that for the CCP and it's supporters...then Li's personal judgment that functions as the ultimate criterion, not some abstract notion of "Truthfullness, Benevolence and Forebearance."
Also, it is incomplete and misleading to just say that "the Falun Dafa cultivation system" is one means to provide salvation for mankind. Yes, Li's does say his Dafa disciples can look forward to being saved, but only if they work diligently to destroy the Chinese Communist Party. Li has repeatedly said that it is not enough just to stay home and study the Dafa and do the exercises during this period of Fa-rectification. Do you deny that? And if that is true, the reader must be told that mere "cutivation" is not enough for salvation, unless we qualify "cultivation" with Li's explicit requirement that "Fa-rectification Dafa disciples" must help to destroy the Chinese Communist Party. For many years, Falun Gong practitioners have been expected to send communications to mainland China via different means (automated phone calls, e-mails, letters) trying to pursuade people to quit the CCP. And more generally, the spreading of the Nine Commentaries has become a requisite activity for Li's disciples who want to be saved. I know you know all of this, why do you resist having it reported in Wikipedia? --Tomananda 19:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa has stated that the CCP and those who help them will be eliminated because they torture and kill Falun Dafa practitioners. Where is the compassion of these people who torture other people who just want to be good?. Where is the truthfulness when trying to hide it and spread lies about Falun Dafa? Where is the tolerance of them when they decided to ban and send practitioners to labor camps and prisons?. Obviously they are to be "weeded out" because they are against the characteristic of the universe. Mr. Li has never stated that we are only to be saved if we diligently work towards destroying the CCP, because if that where the case, where is the issue of personal cultivation? what about Truthfulness-Benevolence-Forbearance ? what about leaving all attachments?. Is the CCP ever mentioned in Zhuan Falun, the guide book for cultivation? no, only in supplementary writings. We cannot highlight the CCP and all these things and ignore the teachings of Falun Dafa, its real meaning and the purpose of cultivation which is clearly stated on Zhuan Falun many times, for example:

"...This person can see the truth of the universe and things that an everyday person cannot. Isn’t he a person who has attained the Tao through practicing cultivation? Isn’t he a great enlightened person? How can he be considered the same as an everyday person? Isn’t he an enlightened person through cultivation practice? Isn’t it correct to call him an enlightened person? In ancient Indian language he is called a Buddha. Actually, that is it. This is what qigong is for." (First Talk, Qigong is cultivation practice)

I dont send emails, letters or automated phone calls to china, and i only spread the nine commentaries on people who are interested about them, but i do clarify the truth about what is going on in China to the people when the oportunity comes about, so according to your criteria, im not working diligently towards destroying the CCP so i cannot be considered a cultivator right? come on. There is a point you are missing, we are here to report about what are the teachings of Falun Dafa, all your personal theories can be discussed and be very well adressed in the critics and controversy section.--Andres18 22:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Andres, according to your own argument below you can give up "clarifying the truth" about China and spreading the nine commentaries, because none of that is related to your own salvation. So whether you consider what you are doing to destroy the CCP (and certainly speading the Nine Commentaries is an attempt to destroy the CCP) "diligent" or not, according to you it is no longer part of salvation. Li has been wrong about this all along, so in a way I am pleased that for once a practitioner is thinking for himself. And as to all those practitioners who are asked to attach robo-calling devices to their home computers, I hope they give up those practices as well. Ater all, it's really just about the teaching contained in Zhuan Falun, right? --Tomananda 09:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes Tomananda, you are right, its all just about the teachings from Zhuan Falun. But i have seen many evidences like videos, pictures and reports from practitioners who have been tortured and killed and i think it is terrible and it should stop as soon as possible. So when i introduce Falun Dafa to people who are interested, i talk a bit about what is happening in China regarding Falun Dafa. I dont speak ill about the CCP, their actions already speak for themselves. Im sure most practitioners think like me.--Andres18 21:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The next paragraph is to mention Fa-rectification etc., and this is just meant to quickly explain Dafa. It is actually impossible to say everything in one go. The most basic features of Falun Dafa should be introduced first. If you want to mention the CCP things in next paragraph we can, though it would have to be a bit longer to accomodate that. Obviously that would have to explain the issue of saving sentient beings at the same time as exposing the wicked party and its crimes. The relationship between the teachings of Li Hongzhi and Li Hongzhi, though interesting, is not really feasible to put in the introduction, and it would be original research to say what you have said. I understand your interpretation, but the teachings do not actually put it that way so we can't put it that way. We can basically only report what the teachings of Falun Dafa say, not what you think of them. I think I am repeating this point.--Asdfg12345 18:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

2nd Paragraph

Ok im moving the second paragraph to this section in order to have things organized.

Proposal from the critics editors

Li claims to provide salvation for mankind[1] and his Dafa (great law) is judging all beings in a process called Fa-rectification.[2] In the Fa-rectification process, all beings will be judged based on their moral quality and the attitude they have towards the Fa-rectification. Li states: “Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out.” [3] In more recent speeches, Li has stressed that “the old forces are to be weeded out during Fa-rectification, the vile party (the CCP) and the evil specters will likewise be weeded out for sure and all who have a hand in what they do.” [4]

Proposal from Falun Dafa editors

Li Hongzhi has stated that by teaching Falun Dafa he is offering universal salvation to all sentient beings. Li Hongzhi has also stated that he initiated a process called Fa-rectification, which refers to the salvation, renewal, rectification and completion of the disintegrating old cosmos. In this process, all beings' attitudes toward Fa-rectification determines their position in the new cosmos, whether that is salvation or destruction; their attitudes toward the teaching of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance is said to decide their future. The Fa-rectification process is said to be nearing completion. Of this, Li Hongzhi himself says: "Why did Fa-rectification have to be done? To save the beings in the cosmos - save all the beings in the cosmos, normalize bad beings and turn them into good ones, have sinful beings be rid of their sins, and have those warped beings reconstructed into good ones again. Dafa brings humankind these wonderful things, and it brings the beings in the cosmos these wonderful things. But during this persecution many beings have indeed lost their chances to be saved and have been denied salvation."

Since i still dont understand what is wrong with the Falun Dafa editors proposal, I'll make a comparison of both paragraphs and tell you what i think, for example:

Comparing:

Li claims to provide salvation for mankind[5] and his Dafa (great law) is judging all beings in a process called Fa-rectification.

and

Li Hongzhi has stated that by teaching Falun Dafa he is offering universal salvation to all sentient beings. Li Hongzhi has also stated that he initiated a process called Fa-rectification, which refers to the salvation, renewal, rectification and completion of the disintegrating old cosmos.

I feel the second paragraph, even though its a bit longer, explains and defines in much more detail and accuracy what the Fa rectification is. It resolves de questions of "How is Mr. Li providing salvation for mankind?" It also answers very accurately the question: "What is the Fa rectification process?". Then on the next sentences it says:

In this process, all beings' attitudes toward Fa-rectification determines their position in the new cosmos, whether that is salvation or destruction; their attitudes toward the teaching of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance is said to decide their future.

comparing it with:

In the Fa-rectification process, all beings will be judged based on their moral quality and the attitude they have towards the Fa-rectification. Li states: “Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out

I think the Falun Dafa editors explains it more shortly an accurately, salvation and destruction are provided the same weight. I think this part of the critics paragraph centers more on destruction than on salvation. Also, in Falun Dafa, the concept of salvation for cultivators means being saved from the cycle of reincarnation and living in the human world, not salvation from destruction. I think this quote was taken from "Essentials for Further Advancement II" Mr. Li is talking to his cultivators, to his disciples so this is why he uses the term salvation this way, because cultivators seek salvation from the cycle of reincarnation and the human world, not from some calamity of some sort. He has stated that anyone who is a good person, wether Falun Dafa practitioner or not, will be saved from destruction. I can find you quotes if youd like.

Also, the critics paragraph says that "in the Fa rectification all beings will be judged..." i consider this is not an accurate definition of Fa rectification, because the judgement is an active process established by the characteristic of the universe, not the Fa rectification, because the fa rectification is not a process of judgement but a process of renewal, rectification and completion of the old cosmos which has deviated from the characteristic of the universe.

Now in here:

In more recent speeches, Li has stressed that “the old forces are to be weeded out during Fa-rectification, the vile party (the CCP) and the evil specters will likewise be weeded out for sure and all who have a hand in what they do.” [6]

Id have to say Mr. Li has not "stressed" anything like this. Using "in more recent speeches, Mr Li has stressed that.." Mentioning Fa rectification and the CCP is to imply Mr. Li is using the Fa rectification as a personal battle against the CCP. Nobody knows what the "evil specters" or the "old forces" are unless they have read other writings from Mr. Li Hongzhi, and using this quote like this, people will think they reffer to the CCP. I cannot accept this being put in the wikipedia article. Because we have to define what is Fa rectification and this is not an accurate definition. We all know Mr. Li started mentioning the Fa rectification way before Falun Dafa was banned by the CCP. And the Fa rectification process is a very broad concept, which is to rectify everything. This part of the paragraph makes it look as if Fa rectification is directed solely to "judgement and destruction" of the CCP or something. The people from the CCP who torture practitioners and hurt them are bad people, so they will be eliminated just as any other bad people, there's no difference or highlighting of anyone in the elimination process. This part of the paragrah does not reflect a neutral definition of Fa rectification.

Next, this additional piece of information provided by the Falun Dafa editors in their paragraph seems very informative to me:

The Fa-rectification process is said to be nearing completion. Of this, Li Hongzhi himself says: "Why did Fa-rectification have to be done? To save the beings in the cosmos - save all the beings in the cosmos, normalize bad beings and turn them into good ones, have sinful beings be rid of their sins, and have those warped beings reconstructed into good ones again. Dafa brings humankind these wonderful things, and it brings the beings in the cosmos these wonderful things. But during this persecution many beings have indeed lost their chances to be saved and have been denied salvation."

It states that Fa rectification is nearing completion, and using a direct quote from Mr. Li it confirms and answers in detail the question of "Why is the Fa rectification happening?" and provides more detailed explanation of what Fa rectification is. Also, it gives the same weight to salvation and destruction and it talks about how some beings have lost their chance to be saved because they are persecuting Falun Dafa disciples, because they are persecuting people who just want to be good, so that makes them bad people.

I still dont see what is wrong with the Falun Dafa editors proposal, in fact when i read it i actually feel it explains much more and i think its pretty neutral. Can anyone talk to me a bit about the critics paragraph? what is it that the Falun Dafa editors are not explaining in their paragraph? what do you think is missing? What does the critics paragraph have that makes it be considered more meaningful by them?.--Andres18 15:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your version is contradicted by what Li himself says in several important ways, and there are other problems with your proposed language:
1. Li clearly states that beings must be saved by him and the Dafa personally. (That's his word, not mine.) To suggest that it's the teachings which save, rather than the teacher in this context is simply wrong. We must report as accurately as possible what Li says, not your personal interpretation of what he says.
2. It is also misleading to state that "all beings's attitudes toward Fa-rectification determines their position in the new cosmos, whether that is salvation or destruction" because that is only one factor. Yes, Li says all those who don't think that the Dafa is good will be the first weeded out, but he also reveals other categories of beings who will be weeded out during the Fa-rectification. Also, the structure of the sentence is awkward. The first version is more simply worded, but I do agree with you that the future tense in "will be judged" should be changed to present continuous "are being judged" since, yes, the Fa-rectification is an on-going process of moral judgment according to Li. So the new sentence should read:
In the Fa-rectification process, all beings are being judged based on their moral quality and the attitude they have towards the Fa-rectification. "Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out."
3.Concerning the relative weight given to destruction versus salvation, I do not object to your adding something abour the salvation component, providing it addresses my other concerns.
4. Do you deny that Li has explicitly linked his Fa-rectification with the destruction of the CCP?
Your statements that "Nobody knows what the "evil specters" or the "old forces" are unless they have read other writings from Mr. Li Hongzhi" and "I cannot accept this being put in the Wikipedia article" do not in any way justify the exlusion of the sentence as it is written. Let me repeat it here:
In more recent speeches, Li has stressed that "the old forces are to be weeded out during Fa-rectification, the vile party (the CCP) and the evil specters will likewise be weeded out for sure and all who have a hand in what they do."
Li's statement quite clearly links the weeding out (destruction) of the Chinese Communist Party with the Fa-recification. Do you deny that? Readers need to know what Li has said. If you want to go on to say something about the other entities that will be weeded out: "the old forces" and the "evil specters" then please propose something...however, I don't really think that is necessary.--Tomananda 17:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"Do you deny that Li has explicitly linked his Fa-rectification with the destruction of the CCP?" Yes, absolutely, the purpose of the Fa rectification is not to destroy the CCP, it will be destroyed because it is against the characteristic of the universe. Once again, the Fa rectification process is not a judgement process, it is a rectification process, like the name says it. The characteristic of the universe is the one that establishes the judgement, then based on this judgement, the Fa rectification occurs. If you have noticed that Mr. Li has mentioned "categories" of people who will be eliminated, then please, think a little bit beyond that and ask yourself this: If Falun Dafa practitioners say they are being tortured and killed by members of the CCP and Mr. Li says that what he calls the teachings of Truthfulness-Benevolence-Forbearance are the criteria for judging all sentient beings, then how can the people of the CCP, according to them, be considered to follow these principles? Then won't they be destroyed?. Seems pretty logical to me. Fa rectification is a very broad concept, it is not directed towards the CCP, if you still want to include that, then do it on the criticism section.

Li clearly states that beings must be saved by him and the Dafa personally. (That's his word, not mine.) To suggest that it's the teachings which save, rather than the teacher in this context is simply wrong. We must report as accurately as possible what Li says, not your personal interpretation of what he says.

Well, Mr. Li states that beings must be saved by him and the Dafa, arent the "Dafa" the teachings? Mr. Li takes part in the salvation process personally due to his fashen that plant mecanisms and evolve your body at other dimensions, and he also takes the role in salvation by bringing these teachings. but the true salvation relies on the Dafa, the teachings if it didnt, then cultivation wouldnt be necessary, so we can all just sit and wait to be saved?. How can one come to the world empty handed and start "saving" people?

In Zhuan Falun, Mr. Li says:

"Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School. During the historical period of this human civilization, it has never been made public. In a prehistoric period, however, it was once widely used to provide salvation to humankind."

Note it says "provide salvation for humankind" because you can only be saved through cultivating according to the teachings. If you say that Mr. Li will save people personally, anyone could misunderstand it, this is why the Falun Dafa editor's proposal explains this more clearly. If Mr. Li where to just come and save us all just like that, then where is the essence of the teachings? why is there a Dafa? and what about cultivation, leaving all attachments, adjusting to the standard of high levels, assimilating to Truth-Benevolence-Forbearance? All these things have to be explained, because they all appear in Zhuan Falun. All of what i am saying is in the book already, if you read it, youll notice it is all there, and there is no mention at all about the CCP. If you say they are my personal interpretations, then what are we to do? include your personal interpretation of these quotes and neglect all the content in Zhuan Falun that speaks about what are the teachings and how to cultivate which is the purpose of Mr. Li coming out to teach Falun Dafa? We cant do that.

Things are suppossed to be neutral, if i let you post something like "In the Fa-rectification process, all beings are being judged based on their moral quality and the attitude they have towards the Fa-rectification. "Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humany and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out." " Wouldnt readers think we, as pro Falun Dafa editors, actually agreed to this being posted? Ask any Falun Dafa practitioner that has read all the books of Mr. Li Hongzhi until Fa rectification if they think this is a proper definition of Fa rectification, they will obviously say no. Please understand that we cannot just address your concerns and neglect defining Falun Dafa for what is explained in the books, specially in Zhuan Falun, which is the guide book for practitioners.--Andres18 23:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Andres: For all your attempts at apologetics, at the end of the day we must rely on what Li says about salvation and Fa-rectification, not your interpretation of what he says. Li repeatedly has linked the destruction of the CCP with the duty of Fa-rectification Dafa disciples. Since you are now claiming that there is no link, let's tell all those practitioners who have installed robo-calling devices on the their home computers in order to call into homes in mainland China and denigrate the CCP to the point of destruction that they can disconnect their devices and just stay home reading Zhuan Falun. Li states:
...the goal of Dafa disciples' clarifying the truth during this period is to save people and eliminate the poisoning of people by those old elements and by the vile party's evil specters. The reason is, the old forces are to be weeded out during Fa-rectification, the vile party and the evil specters will likewise be weeded out for sure, and all who have a hand in what they do will be weeded out. This is a law laid down in Fa-rectification, and it has to be done this way. Teaching the Fa in Canada (6/10/2006)
We can say that other categories of people will be destroyed during Fa-rectification, but there is no justification for not reporting in the introduction what Li's current teachings are. You state that it's Li's teachings that are doing the saving, not Dafa itself, yet Li states the oppostite. The Dafa is judging all beings, according to Li, and it created all being in the cosmos. Do you think Li means his teachings created those beings, or rather the Dafa itself? And yet you say that "you can only be saved by cultivating according to the teachings"..but here, again, your interpretation is refuted by many of Li's quotes in which he says that all sentient beings can only be saved by him personally and the Dafa. When he says that, he is NOT referring just to Falun Gong cultivators and you know that.
Frankly, I am getting tired of this game. I have provided more than a dozen Li quotes about salvation and Fa-rectification and you reject all of them. You state in the last paragraph that "if I let you post something like..." and then go on to include one of Li's quotes:
"Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out."
In essense what you are saying is that you and the other FG practitoiners demand the right to deny the inclusion of certain Li Hongzhi quotes simply because they do not agree with your interpretation of what you claim he teaches. I'm sorry, but there is not basis in Wiki editing policy for exluding direct quotes which are notable, verifiable and needed for an understanding of the teaching. I notice that you once again make the claim that because Zhuan Falun, written more than 10 years ago, does not mention the CCP, that somehow justifies the exlusion of the CCP's destruction by Li's Fa-rectification process. Well, using that kind of logic we would also have to exlude all mention of the so-called persecution in China, since that, too, comes from material after 1996.
So practitioners, turn off all those computer devices you have calling into China. And Epoch Times editors, you can stop publishing those counts of how many millions of people have quit the CCP. None of those actions are needed for your salvation according to Andres! You are now free to spend your time at home doing the exercises and studying the Zhuan Falun because Andres has said so.
Andres, I have done more than enough to provide multiple sources for the material I have presented and in return you provide tortured logic and evasive arguments. It's time for me to take a Christmas break and meanwhile, let's have some other non-practioners weigh in on this discussion. --Tomananda 08:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, first of all: The goal of Dafa disciples clarifying the truth and helping people quit the party is not to disingrate the CCP. The goal is to save people, so it is an act of great compassion. Also, it is not Dafa that is weeding out people. I will show you quotes where Master Li explains that the old forces will elminate the old forces. Also, Master Li said that Gods will elminate CCP, he never said that He himself, Dafa or the Fa-Rectification will eliminate CCP. He clearly stated that Gods will eliminate the CCP. My understanding is that Good is Rewarded and Evil meets with Retribution. The evil CCP have killed more than 100 million Chinese people the last 150 years and they have persecutet The Buddha-Law (Falun Dafa). This is the reason for their destruction. The goal of Dafa disciples is NOT to eliminate the CCP, the goal is to save sentient beings and give sentient beings a chance to be saved during the Fa-Rectification process. Tomananda, how many times have you actually read the articles written by Master Li? You seem to have a very shallow understanding of Falun Dafa and the Fa-Rectification process. Actucally, I refuse to let you tricking people to believe that Master Li or Dafa are in any way enemies to the CCP. Master Li has once said (my own words) that Dafa has no enemies. This means that the CCP is not Dafa's enemy. CCP made a choice, which was to persecute Falun Gong (The Buddha-Law). This choice that the CCP made leads to the elimination of the CCP. Omido 16:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Attention all FG practitioners: Andres and Omido are letting you off the hook. Don't pay atttention to anything Li Hongzhi says about your having to spead the Nine Commentaries far and wide in order to eliminate the evil and wicked party in China. Don't jam those TV signals going into mainland China in an attempt the undermine the CCP. And if you have one of those robo-call devices that a FG techie has attached to one of your home computers for the purpose of spreading anti-CCP propaganda, you can now disconnect it. Andres and Omido are now clarifying the Master's words and based on that clarification, you don't have to do do antything to help the Gods eliminate the evil and wicked CCP, because the Gods themselves will do it without your help! Great news, you are finally all off the hook and can return to your normal cultivation activities: reading the Zhuan Falun over and over again, and doing exercises in the park! --Tomananda 17:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Did anyone else notice that Omido said the CCP killed 100 million people in the last 150 years despite the CCP only having been formed in the 20th century, not the 19th? And the number 150 can't have been a typo since the number '1' isn't that close to the number '5' on the keyboard. Omido, since your fellow FG practitioner Asdfg is now so keen on people backing up their statistics, where did the 100 million figure come from? Thin air? Jsw663 02:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I told you that the reason for spreading the Nine Commenteries is to save sentient beings and give all beings that are poisoned by the CCP a chance to be saved. That is the purpose of Nine Commenteries. It's no need for FG practitioners to do anything against CCP because history, Gods and Heaven will punish the CCP for its crime against humanity. Omido 18:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I made quite a long post above about this, I think it may help if you read it Tomananda. One thing was that Li Hongzhi has stated that it is only because of interference by the old forces that anyone is being judged or weeded out, and that otherwise everyone would have been assimilated to the Fa. So before mentioning the issue of judgement this will have to be mentioned. I think the paragraph will have to be lengthened to accomodate this. I wish you would read my post. I think the key points are about what Fa-rectification actually is: the old comos disintegrating and Li Hongzhi rectifying it to save all beings, which otherwise would have perished, and that the old forces then came and interefered and arranged things, so that now some beings will be weeded out due to that. In this dimension it manifests as the persecution and those supporting it being weeded out. He has said that only those people who are against Dafa and who support the wicked CCP will be weeded out, and if it were not for the old forces none of that would have happened. We're not denying certain quotes and so on, but we are saying that we want the Fa-rectification actually reported, not just what you think about it. You seem fixated on using that quote about the dregs of humanity etc., and that would not be a problem. In the lines previous the meaning of it should be made clear: it applies to all those who oppose Zhen-Shan-Ren, who support the CCP and who have therefore destroyed themselves, severed their own futures and denied their own salvation because of that attitude, and those who are poisoned by the CCP's lies and have bad thoughts toward Dafa - and that in the end all of this is due to intereference in the Fa-rectification by the old forces, without which nothing like this would have happened and everything would have been harmonised with complete universal salvation. Though I have only written my own words, which means that it is my own understanding, I think it is basically an accurate summary of what has happened with Fa-rectification, and that all of it can be directly supported by quotes from Li Hongzhi. It can be explained in a different way, obviously, and I think the already existing proposal goes a good way to explaining it. How would you like to do it? Split it into two paragraphs, or just a longish paragraph? Either is fine by me, but you won't be allowed to obscure these things and only report the part you want according to your crooked notions and inability to understand the Fa. It will help if you read my above, long post in its entirety. --Asdfg12345 19:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The above post violates WP:Civility and treads on the border of violating WP:NPA. Please refrain from such language in future. --Fire Star 火星 19:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, notice how Tomananda has generally backed up his comments with the appropriate quote and source. Asdfg has engaged in precisely the same debate that he accuses me of - unquoted sources. So the question is, is he implying that his opinion is superior to other Wikipedians when he says "Though I have only written my own words, which means that it is my own understanding, I think it is basically an accurate summary of what has happened with Fa-rectification"? Moreover, isn't Li Hongzhi the only true interpreter of Falun Gong? Oh and since Asdfg is such a supporter of freedom of information maybe he should stop pre-forming opinions by constantly attaching the adjective 'wicked' in front of the acronym 'CCP', because if supposed-CCP supporters constantly place 'evil' or 'wicked' in front of 'FG' or 'Falun Gong', he wouldn't accuse FG critics of any 'propaganda', right? Jsw663 03:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Attention all FG practitioners: Omido has further clarified what you are doing when you spread the Nine Commentaries. He says you are not trying to destroy the CCP, but rather just offering CCP members a chance to be saved. In other words, the wicked party will be allowed to continue to exist as long as all its members are saved by Li Hongzhi and his disciples. So with this new understanding, we must make some adjustments to what the requirments are for Fa-rectification Dafa disciples:
1. In this recent poem by Li Hongzhi, ignore the word "fade":
Make clear the truth,and drive off foul spirits.
Spread widely the Nine Commentaries,and the wicked Party shall fade.
With righteous thoughts,save the world's people.
I just don't believe their consciences are irretrievably lost.
Li Hongzhi June 15, 2006, in Philadelphia
Clearly, Li made a mistake in his language here. Although it sounds like he wants the CCP to "fade," what he really meant to say is:
"Spread widely the Nine Commentaries,and the wicked Party will continue to exist but with a change of attitude"
2. Editors of The Epoch Times: effective immediately you must take down that web form in Chinese which collects signatures of alleged CCP members who wish to publicly renounce their membership in the CCP. As Omido has explained, the Master really doesn't want you guys to actively work to destroy the CCP, but rather just to reform its thinking. Also, you must cease reporting those numbers of people who you claim to have quit the party in China. I think that number is up to 15 Million. Obviouisly, since the goal is no longer to destroy the CCP, but rather to save individual members who are part of the CCP, it is no longer appropriate to actively promote resignations from party membership.
3. And for all those Li Hongzhi disciples who have a robo-call device attached to your computer sending unsolicited phone messages to residents of main land China, you can now disconnect those devices! As Omido has explained: There's "no need for FG practitioners to do anything against CCP because history, Gods and Heaven will punish the CCP for its crime against humanity." This is really great news, because now FG practitioners can focus on their individual cultivation and disregard the old requirement of spreading the Nine Commentaries. Why bother? It's all now in the hands of "history, Gods and heaven." So please, stop speading those Nine Commentaries immediately! This does not mean you must stop all communication with people in mainland China, but rather you have to stop promoting the "fading" away of the CCP, because as Omido has explained, that should no longer be your goal. Thanks Omido for making this important clarification! --Tomananda 19:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey hey, come on Tomananda, lets not speak for other people yes? im sure that all you are claiming that Omido is saying is not what he really means. If we keep making posts like this, we are just going to waste good editing time. All we are saying is that we cultivate through Zhuan Falun, but at the same time it is very important to let people know of these terrible human rights abuses. So many people are being tortured for just wanting to practice Falun Dafa, just think about it, what would have happened if the CCP hadnt banned the Falun Dafa?. Mr. Li never mentioned the CCP until the CCP banned Falun Dafa and started torturing and killing practitioners. All we are doing is exposing the evidence of those crimes, we are not trying to destroy the CCP, if something ever happens to them, it is their fault, they are the ones committing the crimes, we just inform people about them. All we want is the persecution to stop. Its just that people have different ways of doing things, so while some people make phone calls to clarify the truth to officers who know nothing about Falun Dafa except what the CCP has told them and clarify the truth for them, others give out a flyer to the people in the street, in the end, the purpose is to stop the persecution. Why dont we just leave the argument this big and just make posts only useful for editing? i think it helps keep things more organized.--Andres18 22:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

My posts should be useful for editing because they speak the truth. It is quite clear from Li's many statements about the CCP (I could post a whole buch of them here if you'd like) and the actions that Falun Gong practitioners take on a daily basis that the purpose of "clarifying the truth" about the "persecution" is much broader than merely "stopping the persecution." I, for one, feel constantly lied to by Falun Gong practitioners because what you say about your beliefs and practices is contradicted by what I know, directly, about your beliefs and practices.
In fairness, I don't expect you to yield on what you think the purpose of your actions is (eg: to save people and yourselves), but I do expect, as an editor who tries to assume good faith, that you (FG editors in general) will eventually yield on my demand that even those possibly embarrassing quotes from your Master will be allowed into the text. What the Master says about the connection between Fa-rectification and the CCP is much clearer than what you guys say. It's as if the Master has surrounded himself with a cadre of militant PR hacks whose job is to spin the image of the FG in the best possible light. I can understand why your Master would want to do this. But spinning is not how we should approach Wikipedia editing.
Take, for example, what I have just posted above. By suggesting I shouldn't speak for others totally misses the point. Since my use of direct quotes from the Master hasn't yielded a consensus on reporting honestly about the link between Fa-rectification and the destruction of the CCP, I have resorted to satire. With a bit of humor, my goal is to clearly point out the inherent contradictions in your stand. But even on a literal level, what I have posted bears a second read. Li Hongzhi has essentially demanded that his disciples take certain actions in order to reach salvation and many of those actions involve a direct attack on the CCP. These "direct attacks" involve spreading of anti-CCP propaganda in many different forms. They are agressive and unrelenting. And because those attacks are agressive and unrelenting, it is simply not reasonable to characterize the FG agenda as a passive one: "all we are trying to do is to stop the persecution." In fact, using your Master's own words, you are working to destroy the CCP. The fact that the ultimate blow may be delivered by "the gods" or "heaven" does not absolve Li's disciples from responsibility for their actions.
I have said from day one that two wrongs do not make a right. Although I can point to clear evidence demonstrating that stories of mass genocide in China have been fabricated by the FG to gain sympathy and support in the West, I do not claim that all stories of persecution are false. But has the FG ever once admitted to it's own errors of fact? Of course not, because the FG is an authoritarian group which avoids all public scrutiny by its agressive tactics. The Falun Gong avoids public scrutiny by relentlessly attacking its critics and constantly pointing to events in China to avoid being looked at itself. As you know, the Falun Gong was attacking its critics in China long before the ban and even getting journalists fired for having dared to criticize Li's Dafa. And more recently, when someone like Samuel Luo whose family has actually been victimized by Li Hongzhi is threatened with lawsuits and jail time in Spain for speaking the truth, what should any reasonable person conclude?
Look, Andres, it is only a few days before Christmas and I am giving my self a break from editing for awhile. I am hoping some of the other non-practitioner editors can weigh in on this discussion, because it truly goes to the heart of the problem with the Falun Gong. --Tomananda 04:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So you resort to satire and assume people will listen or yield to your concerns because you are mocking their opinions which are as useful as yours in order to contribute to a good article? I dare not make judgements but from what i am seeing i think you shouldn't ask us to assume good faith. I can also point to endless and clear evidence that demonstrates that all the stories of persecution are truth, i can show you videos, pictures, investigations, etc. So who of us is right then?. You know, I think it is time to change our approach and make a "Critics say..... Falun Gong practitioners say...." Type of paragraph instead of trying to prove our paragraph is more accurate than the other and so on, maybe it will be more productive. Im traveling tommorrow morning and i will be back on mid january or so, see you then. Merry christmas.--Andres18 00:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

For Wikipedia's purposes, it doesn't matter who is "right." If there are notably sourced reports about what the CCP is doing (New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, Newsweek, Time, etc.) then it should go in the article. As well, what Li has actually said , when it is germane to showing his history, creed, metaphysics, etc., also has a place in the article, especially the comments about his celestial rôle, homosexuals, the relative intelligence of Chinese people, mixing races, etc. This is all notable stuff, in the public domain, and belongs in the article. Asking each other questions in aid of validating or invalidating Falungong on a personal level is a complete waste of time, although probably 90% of this page as well as 90% of the archived talk above is all just such argument... --Fire Star 火星 18:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, you are putting words in other peoples mouth. This is such a bad thing to do. I say something, you quote me and say that I mean something else. Why do you do this? Actually Tomananda, you are extremely hard to work with because all you want to do is to change others. You want to change others but you don't want to change yourself. Your own notions of Falun Gong have to be satisfied, right? This is not the correct way and I hope that you can try to see things through other people's eyes and have more tolerence toward others. I told you that the reason for spreading the Nine Commenteries is to give the chinese people a chance to understand the truth about Falun Gong and the persecution of Falun Gong. It is in fact an act of great compassion. Cultivators of Dafa have absoloutly no political interest among ordinary people. Cultivators of Dao wish to abandon their worldy desires and attachments, why would we ever seek any political power? The purpose of spreading the Nine Commenteries and clarifying the truth about Falun Gong is to give people a chance to understand what is really happening to Falun Gong practitioners in China. Falun Gong practioners are all very good people and very noble. What you try to portray Falun Gong as is very incorrect. It is very easy for me to sit here and say that Tomananda is so brainwashed by the Chinese Communist Party propaganda. But I won't say that because my goal is to create a good article and give people a chance to understand the truth and understand how good Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners actually are. I don't have any interest of badmouthing anybody. Omido 10:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Fire Star, you are a admin. You are supposed to be neutral, so why are you taking a side and attacking Falun Gong? Are not doing wrong things? Are you not ashamed? Stop doing your unjustified reverts please! A admin should uphold justice and be neutral, that is the way convenant did it. But what are you doing? Please stop being like that and be more righteous. Omido 12:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Sub-sections for Criticism and controversies

I Omido, believe that the sub-sections for criticism and contreversies are very unfair when they show up like that on the main page. I want to create a neutral article so that people can understand the truth about Falun Gong. This is my goal. However I have to say that the sub-sections for the Criticism and controversies make the article become extremely unbalanced, this is not correct. Please discuss your opinions here and don't just do reverts. Omido 10:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

One more thing. My goal is to make this article as neutral as possible. Within this article there exists a section called "Criticism and controversies". I will spend alot of time these couple of weeks to create a section called "Praise and Graditude". Within this section I will report on the beauty of Dafa and how Falun Gong practitioners have made selfless efforts to peacefully reject this persecution and clarify the facts about the evil persecution in China. Within this section I will gather information and testimony on how many people have benefited from cultivating within Dafa. Omido 12:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I am still rather new to Wikipedia, so forgive me if I am editing this article incorrectly. When you say "My goal is to make this article as neutral as possible" and in the same paragraph say "I will report on the beauty of Dafa and how Falun Gong practitioners have made selfless efforts to peacefully reject this persecution" -- you are using words like "beauty" to describe Dafa, and calling Falun Gong practitioners "selfless" and "peaceful". This immediately betrays that you are NOT neutral, in fact you are extremely biased in favor of this organization. If you were indeed "neutral" you might say something like, "practicioners consider themselves peaceful yet persecuted and have been trying to avoid/reject such persecution." And you may say something like "Dafa is considered by followers to be a very beautiful aspect of their belief" or something to that effect. You MUST speak as though the practicioners are speaking for themselves, not that you are speaking as if you are a practicioner. I highly recommend you do not contribute to this article, as I am sure contribution will not be neutral no matter how hard you try. --Thebes, Dec 21, 2006

Hi Thebes, thank you for your input. If you are indeed new to Wikipedia I would advise you to read the Wikipedian guidelines first before editing the main article, especially one as controversial as this one, especially the three Wikipedian policies and the many guidelines available. There is also a policy not to treat new editors to Wikipedia harshly, so I hope Omido will respect that.
Omido, I wish you would read the main debates between FG practitioners and FG critics + 3rd parties that have taken place already. Remember that this is Wikipedia and NPOV is impossible when you load your sentences with subjective words. For more detail read the WP:NPOV policy. Other than that, please avoid engaging in constant section blanking and reverting any edit you disagree with on the main Falun Gong page without prior discussion / reading of this page. Prior discussion means AFTER something has been debated by both sides, NOT just after you have posted the matter for discussion on this page. Please also assume WP:Civility and accept that FG practitioners do not possess the only view of FG that matters. That is why there are FG sites and anti-FG sites - those are the places to praise / criticize FG and/or its practitioners. On Wikipedia we try to accommodate different views so please respect that. After all, we all have equal status here, even when we disagree. Jsw663 14:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thebes, I understand how you think, but I have to disagree with you. Of course I speak in favor of Falun Gong, this is because I am a Falun Gong practitioner and I truly think Dafa is a Righteous Law of the Buddha-School. I truly think this. Still, my goal is to offer people the truth about the persecution of Dafa and to tell people what Dafa is about. I think those who have negative thoughts about this Dafa have either listened to the Chinese Communist Party propaganda or they have not yet understood this Dafa. Also Thebes, I think you missunderstood me. I said that I will write about the beauty of Falun Gong within the section "Praise and Graditude". Omido 18:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There are notable criticisms about Falungong, and there would be little publicity for them if there weren't controversies. To say there isn't a place for the reporting of notable, sourced criticisms and controversy surrounding Falungong and its founder is unrealistic. Of course we are going to report these things. To have an article that is a simple advert for Li Hongzhi's creed is unacceptable. --Fire Star 火星 22:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There should be a place for criticism. Omido is just pointing out that he thinks it would also be fair if there was a third party possitive views on falun gong website called "Praise and gratitude". He believes it would be neutral since it would reflect that third party views on Falun Gong are not just criticism but there is also other people who view Falun Gong as a possitive influence in their communities and that should also be reported. Seems like a good idea to me.

Thebes, its not good to go around accussing people like that regardless of how eccentric you think their allegations may be, that is just contributing more and more to creating an uncivility environment and deviating from the editing process. Lets all respect each others point of views and if we disagree with each other, we can state it in a civil way. If i were to judge you in the same terms you judged Omido, then saying you believe his contribution would not be neutral no matter how much he tries and trying to dismiss him from the editing process is judging people basing yourself on merely two posts or so, it breaks the rule of Assuming Good Faith, the rule of uncivility and it does not make you a neutral editor either, thus would you also qualify for being dismissed from this editing process. Let's just focus on answering at each others suggestions and ideas rather than criticizing each other.--Andres18 00:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Omido, you are supposed to be truthful as a FG practitioner and that includes what you claim about the Falun Gong's history in China. Not only have you been repeatedly deleting the summary of sub-sections in the Criticism and controversies section, you've actually posted something which is totally untrue. You have replaced a true sentence:
"Falun Gong became the subject of criticism and controversy a few years after its introduction in China in 1992 and continues to this day."
with a totally false one:
"Criticism and controversy about the Falun Gong began after 1999, when the persecution by the CCP began."
As I am sure you are aware, the early criticism of the Falun Gong began long before the ban in 1999. That fact is well documented in the Criticism section. You simply cannot make up your own history about the Falun Gong, and I find your efforts to do so extremely disturbing. --Tomananda 00:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Most criticism began after 1999. The only criticism I am aware of that began before 1999 was from the Chinese Buddhist association. They criticized Falun Gong. I also know that the only reason the Buddhist association attacked Dafa was because ALOT of lay Buddhists became Falun Gong practitioners. The buddhist association has a monthly fee and when alot of their members because Dafa practitioners they lost alot of money, so they became angry and started to make up stories and slander Master Li and Dafa. Omido 16:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Tomananda, stop saying "you should be truthful as a Falun Gong practitioner". If somebodies actions does not validate your notions then you can't say he is not truthful, who said that your notions are truthful? Actually I can tell you that your notions are so far from the truth. I am here to validate Dafa, to clarify the truth about Dafa and to protect the rumor of Master Li and Dafa. I am not here to follow your understanding or to validate your notions, have you not understood this yet? I know why I am here and what I should do. Omido 16:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

"I am here to validate Dafa" But that isn't what Wikipedia is for. Please read, really read, WP:NPOV. You may not be aware, but you have just outed yourself as a POV warrior. Such a positioning is certain to get you reverted every time. --Fire Star 火星 19:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Omido, You seem to be declaring that you will not accept verifiable facts from credible third party sources in this article if those facts and sources contradict what you personally consider to be the thruth of the Dafa. Fire Star is correct: with that attitude you cannot live up to the objective standards of a Wikipedia editor. Despite what you claim, I base all my edits on reliable sources or direct quotes from Master Li. In this particular incident, the truth of my statment that "Falun Gong became the subject of criticism and controversy a few years after its introduction in China in 1992" is supported by historians, scholars and journalists who have published their work in reputable publications. The criticism is summarized on the Criticism page and consists of two main types: the critique of Buddhists around issues of Buddhist orthodoxy and the concerns of academics on what they considered to be the harmful aspects of Falun Gong practice. All this is a matter of historical record and it is not disputed. Public criticism of Li Hongzhi and his teachings not only occured before the ban, but the Falun Gong's militant response to its critics also helped to justify the ban. This information which you are trying to blank out is not only well-sourced and accurate, it also is quite notable because it helps people to understand why the Beijing government ultimately cracked down on the Falun Gong so strongly. --Tomananda 20:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, I was just making a point: That I am not here to follow Tomananda's thinking or to validate his notions. I am here to clarify the truth about Dafa and create a neutral article, unlike Tomananda who only wants to attack Falun Gong. Also Tomananda, there is nothing harmful about Falun Gong. Do you know how many practitioners became healthy and healed after they began practicing Falun Gong? How do you deny these things? There are tens of millions of practitioners worldwide that got cured of many deadly diseases, do you deny these things do? So many people around the world KNOW that Dafa is so good. They know how miracolous Falun Gong is and how good Falun Gong practitioners have responded to this brutal and evil persecution. I will create a "Praise and Gratitude" section that will be just as big as the criticism section and there I will gather all the eye witnesses and gather practitioners stories about how they benefited from this wonderful and miracolous practice within Buddha-School. Omido 12:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Fire Star, you are a admin. You are supposed to be neutral, so why are you taking a side and attacking Falun Gong? Are not doing wrong things? Are you not ashamed? Stop doing your unjustified reverts please! A admin should uphold justice and be neutral, that is the way convenant did it. But what are you doing? Please stop being like that and be more righteous. Omido 12:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Fire Star you said that "but that is not what wikipedia is here for". Well, is Wikipedia here for attacking Falun Gong? Absoloutly not! As long as there are editors that are trying to defame Master and Dafa with their CCP propaganda and lies, I will be here to protect Dafa and put in positive material. As long as there are editors who are trying to put in negative things and lie about things, I will be here to try to clarify the truth about Falun Dafa. Omido 12:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks for replying, but you have realise that Wikipedia isn't attacking FLG, we are simply reporting it. Li Hongzhi is a controversial figure, and what he teaches is unusual, at best, and many people find what he teaches to be highly offensive. That there are things in the public domain that can be reported to that end that you don't want reported isn't my concern, and I am not ashamed to say it. I try to be neutral, and it is perhaps your pro-FLG stance that prevents you seeing that. If you read through the talk page archive you'll see that I have been accused of being both pro- and anti-FLG, and that is because I won't let the pro- guys turn it into a snow job or the anti- guys turn it into a hatefest. You have declared your intent to turn this into a snow job, and I can make a case to therefore (especially since this is the only subject you contribute to) treat your edits as vandalism, but if you can get yourself to accept that there are going to be things in the article that you don't like (as we all do), then you will be a lot happier here. --Fire Star 火星 14:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

How can you call the sub-sections for critism and conterversies to show up like that on the main page fair? it is not fair at all. Stop doing reverts just like that, we are discussing here. I told everybody why I removed the sub-sections for criticm on the main page. You have no reason to just revert it. Omido 15:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I have explained the reasons I've reverted you, and I will do so again: You have declared that your intent is to "to validate Dafa", but that isn't what Wikipedia does. The simplest way to put it, so that you will please consider the opinions of the rest of us, is: This isn't Li Hongzhi's house, it is our house, and if you don't behave you will eventually be escorted out.
The criticisms and controversies section is on the main page (linked to the more detailed main criticisms and controversies article) because controversy and criticism is how FLG is most well known to the general public. You have admitted that you want to promote FLG, Wikipedia policy says we merely report, warts and all. I would consider that your continued insistence that the article promote FLG as vandalism if I felt that you understood our policies. You have admitted that you care more about advertising FLG than about following policy, actually. As it is, your POV pushing has the effect of vandalism, and is very likely to get you blocked if you continue. --Fire Star 火星 19:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've added a link to the Positive Sites section, http://misconceptions.50webs.com, "Misconceptions About Falun Gong". This link adds more balance to the types of links under Critical Sites by addressing some of their points, so it should be left as is. I have no interest in working on the Wikipedia entry, so this is probably the first and last you'll see of me.

Cheers, Matthew Three 19:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe we are even having this conversation! Omido is not only blanking the entire Criticism and controversies summary on the main page, he is replacing it with a sentence which is totally false:
"Criticism and controversy about Falun Gong began after 1999, when the persecution by the CCP began."
If this isn't a gross violation of NPOV, I don't know what is. Omido, it is clear that you are trying to suppress reporting of the pre-ban history of the Falun Gong in China because that history presents a less-than-sympathetic picture of Falun Gong's activities. The bottom line is that you are deleting material that meets all Wiki criteria for edits. It is NPOV (because it is reporting well-sourced historical facts or the published opinions of critics), notable and not original research. For you to not only insist on blanking this material but also adding a sentence of your own which mis-represents the history of the FG is outrageous. It is also self-defeating for you in your role as practitioner who must "clarify the truth" and "defend the Dafa." If the Dafa really is the great cosmic law which created all sentient beings in the cosmos, how can the Dafa possibly benefit from false statements being posted on Wikiepedia? Think about it! Is it possible to defend the principle of "truthfullness" by lying? How can that be? --Tomananda 19:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Promote? What do you mean promote? Do you even know what validate means? Fire Star, with validate Dafa it means to expose the lies and propaganda that the CCP has spread in order to justify their wicked persecution against Falun Dafa. To validate Dafa means to clarify the truth to people about the persecution, what is wrong with doing that? Nothing wrong at all. I am aiming at creating a neutral article. "controversy and criticism is how FLG is most well known to the general public." Are you joking? The general public thinks Falun Dafa and Truth-Compassion-Forbearence is so good and the west and the general public have showed their support and sympathy for Falun Gong. How can you say things like that? Im sorry but you do not seem reasonable at all. Tomananda has been here stirring things up and spreading lies and propaganda for too long, I will not allow it to continue like that anymore. I will do my best to create a neutral article and not let CCP mouthpieces like Tomananda come and stir things up like that. "You have admitted that you care more about advertising FLG than about following policy, actually. As it is, your POV pushing has the effect of vandalism, and is very likely to get you blocked if you continue." Are you kidding? Why do you put words into my mouth? What kind of admin are you? What a joke. When did I say that I want to promote Falun Gong or advertise for Falun Gong? I said that I want to validate Dafa, that is what I said. Stop putting words into my mouth. Validate Dafa means clarifying the truth about the persecution in China and expose the propaganda and lies that CCP has spread, that is what it means. Isn't exposing the persecution in China a way to report? How can it not be allowed? I have so much material from well known people that clearly reports about the persecution of Falun Gong, they are all NPOV, how can you call it all to be POV? I suggest that you take your responsibility as an admin and become more neutral.

Tomananda, I put back the sentence criticism began after 1992. Are you satisfied? Still I don't accept that the sub-sections for criticism and conterversies show up like that on the main page, it is absoloutly unacceptable. If that does not make the article unbalanced, then I don't know what does!

Omido 20:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean that you have admitted promoting FLG in the sense that you object to anything that you see as critical to the subject of FLG as "unfair" and that you have declared that you are here to "validate" (which means establish the validity of in English in this sense) FLG on Wikipedia. I hadn't heard of FLG until the suppression by the CCP, and I'm sure the publicity generated by the crackdown is how most of us first heard of it. For a Wikipedia editor to say that the CCP is wicked while FLG is always good is so POV that I can't believe you expect anyone here who has read WP:NPOV to agree with it. So, with you having said all that, just above, may I ask: if you don't stand by your own words, then what are you discussing for? I am an admin telling you that that isn't how Wikipedia works. We have a long, long history of FLG practitioners, one subject editors all, coming here trolling for converts. That is what I mean by promote. The layout of the page may be unacceptable to you, but consensus says otherwise, and you are in open violation of WP:3RR at this point, exacerbated by the last few days. --Fire Star 火星 00:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I do not agree with you. I am not here to object to anything that I see as critical, if I did it like that then I would not be creating a neutral article, would I? I have said many times that my goal is to create a neutral article. Balancing the sub-sections in the critcism section is the first step because it looks really unbalanced and unfair when they show up like that on the main page. The reason I say Falun Gong is good and CCP is wicked is because the CCP has a history of killing innocent people. It is estimated that 100 million chinese citizens have had an "unnatural" death (killed by CCP) from the time CCP started ruling in China. Also, there are alot of independent eye witnesses that have stepped forward and confirmed that here are currently 36 concentrationcamps that are illegally detaining Falun Gong practitioners. How can I not call the CCP wicked? I think the CCP is the most wicked cult in the world right now, that is what I think. The reason I think like this is because they have persecuted Falun Gong, Falun Gong practitioners and for their history of killing innocent Chinese people the last 150 years, only for money and power. There is serious problems regarding human rights today in China, this is why I call CCP wicked. The reason I say Falun Gong is good is because I myself practice Falun Gong and I, my family, friends and alot of people around be have really benefited since I started practicing Falun Gong. I have learned from Falun Gong why I should be a good person and why I should remove my selfish intentions to hurt others for personal gain, this is the reason why I think Falun Gong is really good. I told you these things because you did not agree with me saying the CCP is wicked and Falun Gong is good, so I just told you why I think the way I think. I'm not here to make any trouble and I have learned from Falun Dafa to treat everbody and everything with compassion, I'm sorry if I have not acted so good. My goal is still to create a neutral article, not to preach, promote or advertise Falun Gong. My goal is to clarify the truth about the persecution of innocent Falun Gong practitioners in China, the organ harvesting of live Falun Gong practitioners and the teachings of Falun Gong. I told you that the first step is to balance how the sub-sections appear on the main page, as you can understand Fire Star, the sub-sections showing up like that and totally "taking over" the main page is actually not neutral and fair. You as a neutral admin should be able to see this too. Omido 10:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It is OK that you don't agree with me, or anyone else. It is not OK that you don't listen to me or anyone else. It certainly not OK that you continually revert the article to your preferred version. You are saying what you believe, and your beliefs are based on value judgments that you personally hold, but that still isn't how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a blog, not a discussion board, and not free advertising for Li Hongzhi or the CCP. We don't say anyone is good or evil, we report what other people, notable people, have written about the subject. We are reporters, not masked avengers. You aren't the only person here and you can't unilaterally decide what is and isn't in this article.
As far as content is concerned - of course there is controversy; world-famous, thoroughly-reported-by-every-major-news-agency-and-well-known-to-the-reading-public controversy between FLG and the CCP. There is less well known but still well attested controversy between FLG and anti-cult advocacy groups. To say that reporting these highly significant features of FLG is "unfair" is unrealistic. Of course its fair, it happened. We say what Li Hongzhi has said and let people make up their own minds. We say what the CCP did and let people make up their own minds. There is no fair or unfair, just reporting. If people think that makes Li look crazy or the CCP bloodthirsty, that is their business. By slanting that process with a whitewash, a snow job to make Li look like an angel and the CCP look like devils is POV. You'll have to read our neutral point of view policy, where this is pointed out, again and again until it sticks if you want a continued happy career here. It is one of the many mechanisms in place for forestalling any one person from deciding the fate of an article; 3RR is another. --Fire Star 火星 14:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, within the changes I have made, the sub-sections for criticism and conterversy are shortened on the main page to create a more balanced and neutral article. I also added describtions for the positive links. These are the changes that I revert to. This should not be wrong, I am not advertising or anything, I am just balancing the article and the sub-sections on the main page are not balanced at all. They are negative. Wikipedia is not here to slander Falun Dafa, right? Omido 21:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. I will repost your quote in order to bold and note sequentially the phrases that indicate your intent to impose your opinion (and thereby undo the work of other editors), so you can see what phrases particluarly are problematic for purposes of an encyclopaedia:
"Fire Star, within the changes I have made, the sub-sections for criticism and conterversy are shortened on the main page to create a more balanced and neutral article.1 I also added describtions for the positive links2 These are the changes that I revert to. This should not be wrong, I am not advertising or anything, I am just balancing the article and the sub-sections on the main page are not balanced at all. They are negative.3 Wikipedia is not here to slander Falun Dafa4, right?"
For note 1: You say you are creating a shortened and more balanced, neutral article, but it looks to me like you are simply removing reports of criticisms and controversy. In the whole of Wikipedia you will not find an article about a group like FLG without some mwntion of controversial elements on the from page, from the Roman Catholic Church to the International Olympic Committee. If the controversy has been as throughly reported as the controversy FLG has been in, then only your opinion weighs against having it mentioned on the main page. The entire weight of Wikipedia custom disagrees.
For note 2: Your "descriptions for positive links" are by self-definition not neutral. "Positive" links? Again, that wording weights it so that solely your opinion of them shines through. A more neutral wording would be the more descriptive "pro-FLG" links. See WP:NPOV.
For note 3: You say you are balancing that which is not balanced, but you only base that on your opinion, too. I'm sorry that the public record seems unbalanced to you, but these things have happened and to leave mention of them out of our article, to have our article contain only the solely "positive" reportage that you say is balanced would make us just so much free advertising for Li Hongzhi's books and lectures. See WP:NOT.
For note 4: To imply that those whom you disagree with here are "slandering" is a disingenuous argument, treading close to a personal attack, and is not a way to impress your fellow editors here at Wikipedia, or incline us to care about your opinionated objections. See WP:AGF.
So there you have it. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but you have to see that what you have admitted you are trying to do here, to somehow forever "validate" FLG on Wikipedia, won't stand. Wikipedia is not an organ of FLG, FLG does concern more people than its pracitioners or the CCP, and contributions to the article will have to respect that or be reverted. --Fire Star 火星 22:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

One question: Why is it that the criticism page's summary on the main page consists of summaries of and links to each section? It's the only subpage with this kind of treatment. Why so? Mcconn 00:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I think it's not a problem to have a subsection for criticisms and controversies, but overdoing is not right. Let us regard them as "negative" third party responses to Falun Gong; there is a distinct lack of "positive" third party responses - so however big you want to make the section on criticisms, an equally big section should be made on praise. But besides that, these things are not the main focus for this article, which is Falun Gong, though they should be equally reported. Can get to work on a report of third party positive responses to Falun Gong sometime soon. Maybe we should also make a page with that title to balance things.--Asdfg12345 00:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Asdfg: You seem to have not read Firestar's summary of Wikipedia policy, because you have done the same blanking that Omido did, while also adding some POV terms of your own. As Firestar points out, Wikipedia will of course report notable criticism and controversy, and the material that now exists on the home page is far from "excessive"...in fact, if anything, it is minimalistic. If you would prefer, we could move a few of the sections that now appear on the Criticism page to the Main page, which also would make sense. I'm thinking especially about the "Is Falun Gong a cult" section, which was originally on the main page, before you started editing. And as to overall weight of this material, I suggest you review the main page on Scientology as a model for our own Criticism page.
You keep blanking the same material over and over again, as if that were going to convince others that it doesn't belong. How would you feel if all I did was blank the obvious pro-FG material, like the section you have on the alleged health benefits of FG? Why is it that you never see the point of respecting the work of other editors? --Tomananda 03:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I will say that it is possible disputed material is restructured (links, etc.) or moved to a different part of the page, but it shouldn't be removed completely. I think it is possible to improve the format, but the material itself is noteworthy. --Fire Star 火星 13:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

How do people feel about a more concise single or double paragraph summary of the criticism subpage similar to that used for other subpages? Mcconn 15:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be fine w/me. There should be consistency. --Fire Star 火星 18:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Tomanda, as far as I know, these and the criticism page itself were mostly written by you, so what do you think of this? Mcconn 20:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, the last 4 responses, I told you I am not here to advertise for Falun Gong. You are still bringing up the same subject, I don't know why. My changes included shortening the sub-sections for the criticism or conterversy because they are really overdone and the critics just edited it like that some months ago without the other editors approval. Also Fire Star, I have to say that you are absoloutly not a neutraö admin, this is really not correct and you should really try to be more neutral. Your behaviour is totally unacceptable. You are not understanding something Fire Star. People like Tomananda and Samuel Lou are here to slander Falun Dafa and force their own opinions and notions on others. As a Falun Dafa practitioners I cannot just sit by and watch them do whatever they want, do you understand this? Omido 17:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you are upset with my position. When you say you are here to "validate" Li Hongzhi's teachings, it means in practical terms that you are advertising; you are trying to convince people that Li Hongzhi is who he says he is without acknowledging criticisms or controversy at all. You are simply saying they are "unfair" (when your edit summary actually mentions what you are doing) and removing them. This may surprise you, but I myself don't believe Li Hongzhi is a fluffy bunny angel come down from heaven to save us all. He is a complicated man and his new religion has a complicated, sensational and remarkably controversial history. It isn't every day that the government of the largest nation on earth decides to hunt down and kill a religion! If you don't like the controversy section, you have to prove to us that the information is somehow incorrect, and not just by saying that it is unfair or unbalanced. As I've said, I have been accused of being both pro- and anti-FLG over the years, and I've conceded good points to both sides, if they make them. As far as my neutrality goes, here I am just another editor, I don't exercise admin functions on this article because I've edited myself for a long time now and that would be a conflict of interest. The only admin function I will exercise here is for blatant and repeated violations of our personal attack policy, which I would enforce anywhere. I hope this helps. --Fire Star 火星 18:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Firestar, thank you for again restating the premises under which all Wikipedia editors should work. I'm afraid Omido is not willing to accept Wikipedia standards of notability, NPOV and no original research. In an earlier post you commented that Omido is outing himself as a POV warrier, and he continues to do so. While you are not playing the role of an administrator here, it seems to me that Omido's persistence in pushing his POV should be brought to the attention of an administrator who has the power to sanction him.
It's ironic that Omido should accuse me of the very thing he is doing. You have told Omido that "If you don't like the controversy section you have to prove to us that the information is somehow incorrect, and not just by saying that it is unfair or unbalanced." The point is this: the material that is reported in the Criticism and controversies summary section meets all Wikiepdia criteria: it is well-sourced, notable and not original research. Yet Omido has the affrontery to acuse me of slandering Falun Dafa and forcing my opinions and notions on others. I strongly object to Omido's use of the term slander...both because it amounts to a personal attack and because it is grossly inaccurate. How can I possibly "slander" Falun Dafa by accurately reporting what it's founder, Li Hongzhi, has said? How can I possibly be charged with forcing my opinions on others, when it is the opinions of notable published sources that I seek to report?
What is really outrageous in Omido's editing behavior is that while he is comfortable hurling accusations against me, he has inserted unsourced falsehoods into these edits without so much as an apology. As the discussion above shows, when I called him on one of these falsehoods...his statement that criticism of the FG didn't begin until 1999 as a result of the "persectution"...he actually backed down and reinserted the original sentence which reported the work of scholars, historians and reporters.
The bottom line here is that Omido, by his repeated posts on this page, has demonstrated a stubborn unwillingness to abide by Wikipedia editing standards. His use of the legal term slander to describe the edits done by FG critics such as myself and Samuel Luo could even be construed as a threat against Wikipedia itself, and that in and of itself is against Wikipedia policy.
How much longer do we have to persist in this conversation? Other FG editors have shown a willingness to work cooperatively in this editing process. I am afraid that as long as Omido continues to demand the right to do wholesale blanking of material he doesn't like...but which he makes no attempt to disprove or challenge in terms of sources or notability...we will not be able to make any progress on improving this article. --Tomananda 20:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Tomanda, as far as I know, the criticism/controversy summaries and the page itself were mostly written by you, so what do you think of my above suggestion? Mcconn 20:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Right now the issue is Omido's behavior. We've already had discussion about the overall organization on the main page and I've made my comments previously, but once again the work of a zealous editor has distracted us. First Omido blanked all the Critical summaries on the main page, then Asdfg did the same thing. There are many more FG practitioner editors on this page then there are critical editors. There's no point in pretending that you speak for the community of FG editors, because clearly you do not. So for now, I feel I must wait until there is an equitable resolution to the Omido problem. Fire Star: could you please communicate with the appropriate administrator about Omido's behavior? --Tomananda 21:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'll create a section here for discussion over my suggestion, and I'll leave this discussion as is. We can discuss more than one issue at a time. Mcconn 23:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Criticism/Controversy summary on main page reduced to one or two paragraphs

All of the subpage summaries on the main page are one or two paragraphs except for the criticism/controversy subpage, which has individual subsections with links and summaries for each subsection on its main page. So I am suggesting reducing this to one or two paragraphs, like the summaries of other subpages. First, I'd like to know who supports this idea and who doesn't. If you don't support it, then please state why. If most are in favor then perhaps someone can take up the responsibility to write a draft and post it on the talk page for review. Mcconn 23:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I do not support this obvious attempt to dilute the Criticism and controversies summary on the main page. You seem to be bothered that there are separate links to sub-articles which happen to appear on the same Criticism page, but not bothered that at the same time this material was created the FG practitioners created a bunch of separate pages to promote the FG. As I've said before, the placement of some of the sub-sections in the Criticism page is rather arbitrary. For example, the "Is Falun Gong a cult?" subsection probably belongs on the main page, where it was at the very beginning of our discussions. And there are other sub-sections in the Criticism page which could easily warrent their own separate pages. Why should we have multiple pages which FG practitioners created, but only one Criticism page? Is that really balanced? --Tomananda 00:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ya, it really is balanced. Because there is a lot more to Falun Gong than criticism and controversy. Do you think half the page should be criticism? That's silly. What precedence does that have? There are many elements to this subject of which Criticism and controversy is one. And, like it or not, it is but one subpage of the article. It does not deserve the special treatment that it has been getting. I know that you originally modeled this section after the one on the scientology page, but the fact is Falun Gong is not scientology, and the two pages are different. The criticism section for scientology does not have a seperate page, while ours does. If you really have a problem with having this section's mainpage summary be just like the others, then another option would be to do something in bullet form like the christianity article. I do believe that in the current state it is being given unfair treatment.

The "Is Falun Gong a cult" section rightly belongs in that page because this is a controversal subject, and the academics' explanations of why they think Falun Gong is cult amount to criticism. Mcconn 03:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I made a mistake. The Scientology page does have a seperate subpage for criticism. Mcconn 04:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
For an example of a well-sourced critical page on a well-known subject, please have a look at Criticism of Coca-Cola. We have a lot of one-subject editors here, both pro- and anti-, so hopefully this should be interesting. --Fire Star 火星 15:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Statement about salvation and Fa-rectification expanded to one paragraph

Since it appears we are not going to work sequentially on editing the main page, I am posting here for discussion the new somewhat merged paragraph that I posted in the introduction section:

Li claims to provide salvation for mankind [7] and his Dafa (great law) is judging all beings in a process called Fa-rectification.[8] In the Fa-rectification process, all beings are judged based on the principles of Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance and the attitude they have towards the Fa-rectification. Li states: “Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out.” [9] In more recent speeches, Li has stressed that “the old forces are to be weeded out during Fa-rectification, the vile party (the CCP) and the evil specters will likewise be weeded out for sure and all who have a hand in what they do.” [10] The Fa-rectification process is said to be nearing completion.

For those who remember the previous complaints about what I had written, you'll notice that I have changed the previous reference to moral quality (an undefined concept if there ever was one) to the much more precise reference to Truthfullneess, Benevolence and Forebearance, which is the precise definition of what constitutes moral quality for Li Hongzhi and his disciples. There are some other changes in the paragraph as well. Please indicate your approval or disappoval of this new paragraph below, or alternatively suggest modifications you would like to see.--Tomananda 00:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda I wrote a great deal in response to this. Those things do not explained what Fa-rectification is. Plus introducing the concepts about the CCP, old forces, etc, is not appropriate right at the beginning. If Fa-rectification is to be talked about, you need to actually say what it is. I wrote so much explaining this. Go back and read it please. All you have done to respond to that is provide some of your own interpretations of Falun Dafa as a political enterprise aimed at destroying the CCP, something that Li Hongzhi has explicitly and repeatedly stated is not the case. See salvation of all sentient beings. I keep saying your own interpretations are fine, but don't belong in wikipedia. If there are some cult experts or political scientists who have published work and who say the same stuff as you then we should post it for sure in the appropriate section. I will post the other I proposed below, and if there are things you don't understand or disagree with please say so. I urge you to read what I wrote before, quite long, so I won't repeat it again.

Li Hongzhi has stated that by teaching Falun Dafa he is offering universal salvation to all sentient beings. Li Hongzhi has also stated that he initiated a process called Fa-rectification, which refers to the salvation, renewal, rectification and completion of the disintegrating old cosmos. In this process, all beings' attitudes toward Fa-rectification determines their position in the new cosmos, whether that is salvation or destruction; their attitudes toward the teaching of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance is said to decide their future. The Fa-rectification process is said to be nearing completion. Of this, Li Hongzhi himself says: "Why did Fa-rectification have to be done? To save the beings in the cosmos - save all the beings in the cosmos, normalize bad beings and turn them into good ones, have sinful beings be rid of their sins, and have those warped beings reconstructed into good ones again. Dafa brings humankind these wonderful things, and it brings the beings in the cosmos these wonderful things. But during this persecution many beings have indeed lost their chances to be saved and have been denied salvation."

In some words, that is basically what Fa-rectification is, and I wrote a great deal in a long post above explaining how. I want you to read all of it. The things about the old forces and even further on, the CCP, may be introduced in another section explaining Fa-rectification, when there is time to go into more detail. This is the introduction, remember? I would actually not mind to see a properly written enclopedic article about Falun Gong that discussed all the beliefs and everything, so why don't you? You know, there is already enough for people to have all kinds of opinions when just neutrally presenting what Li Hongzhi has said, so why do you think it's better to misrepresent his words and what he has taught? I am actually not saying these things with the thinking that this is something really great for people to understand Falun Dafa. I would tell them to read Zhuan Falun on their own for that. But as an editor I feel that it would be bad for me to pretend he has not said these things, and try to weedle out of a frank discussion of it. I am telling you that I am extremely willing to engage in a frank discussion of these things on wikipedia, and I have demonstrated that, but I will resist any attempt to obscure and misrepresent Falun Dafa. --Asdfg12345 01:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Revert war initiated by Falun Gong editors

The recent edit war initiated by Falun Gong practitioner editors--Omido and Asdfg12345—is an attempt to highjack the Falun Gong page. What justification do you practitioners have for deleting all critical material of the gorup, like the KPFA Falun Gong program and even the link to Li’s page? You guys are simply trying to conceal the fact from the public. But you know what, a pig with lipstick on is still a pig. --Mr.He 22:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That is so true about you as well, you yourself contributed in an unjustified revert war on the Li Hongzhi page in September. Just one example is this review [1]. Don't get me wrong, I do not support unjustified (undiscussed) reverts, and I do believe that practitioners should have a better conduct (and actually have a better conduct) then the anti-Falun Gong guys. --HappyInGeneral 11:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
By your last edit, Asdfg, the one just past midnight Dec 30 2006 (the reversion to Omido's version), which undoes all the agreed paragraphs above between pro-FG people including yourself, and FG critics, already demonstrates how "extremely willing" you are "to engage in a frank discussion" when in the end you are simply pursuing hardline FG propaganda. This is extremely unhelpful to the Wikipedia process because relative neutrality is NOT derived from enforcing one side's views or versions. How would you feel if FG critics / skeptics persistently quoted entire sections of the Chinese Communist Party's rebuke of Falun Gong? Oh wait, that's not possible now since criticism is of it is kept to one line, although the pro-FG view can be justified to take up the rest of the page. Why align yourself, as a Wiki editor, with those who persistently ignore Wikipedia policies? Have you also no interest in seeing a final, agreed English version of this Wiki article? Jsw663 03:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
It's quite easy to yell whatever about the other editor, and in the mean time being able to elude the concrete facts. Can you please point out the concrete fact about which you choose to complain about? Which part that was already agreed upon by all was reverted? What exactly do you dislike on the version that Asdfg12345 presented? From your reasoning above I can tell that you dislike the fact that is coming from a practitioner, but then again, I might be wrong. Please provide the concrete information perhaps your version with your reasons, that would help all of us a lot. And keep a constructive environment and personal attacks at a minimum. Thx. --HappyInGeneral 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
If you read my reply on Asdfg's talk page you will find the expanded version of the above comment. I gave numerous examples; all that is required is to click on Asdfg's last revert to compare what he 'reverted' to understand. One such example was reducing the Criticism / Controversies of FG to one sentence. That is clearly not what we agreed. Most importantly, most of the above discussion (ie since Dec 2006) was spent in agreeing on what the first few paragraphs of the FG entry ought to be. The version that is presently locked on is a biased one that was disagreed on - and both parties (pro-FG / anti-FG) have agreed on a compromise version since. The use of the words 'persecution' and 'genocide' are also loaded, and 'suppression' was agreed to above. Instead of merely asking in what seems to be a mocking tone, HiG, perhaps you'd want to read the discussion on this page first. Jsw663 10:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Jsw I will respond to both comments (above and on talk page) here. I wrote in an email to Omido that I am not against criticism of Falun Gong on the main page. However, I was really mistaken in making that revert, and I would like to apologise. The reason for the revert was to get rid of those things in the lede that were inappropriate, that sentence "Dafa is judging all beings and weeding out corrupt beings" - that one. I do think that the criticism section was getting too much attention - with a whole page dedicated to it plus a good portion of the main page with subsections - but I do not oppose having criticism. I do not think it would be a correct encyclopedia article without mentioning the criticism. I am pretty much in agreement with a lot of what you said on my discussion page - though when did I insult Fire Star? I have never meant to insult anyone on wikipedia. Sometimes I know that I write strong words and I also realise that is something I need to correct and write things in a better way. I am trying to remove those things and write in a clearer and better way, and just address the issues and not sound too sharp with people. It's difficult, you know. The other thing you mentioned was that maybe you thought I really did not want to see a NPOV article in the end... I can tell you that is not true at all. That is exactly what I want. I have said that revert was a mistake. I often have a strong feeling that Tomananda is not here to create a NPOV article, but only to bash Falun Gong. So sometimes I feel like I am assuming a role simply to combat that. I also do not think your intentions are so pure. You won't even admit that there is a genocide going on - something so clear and obvious - I find that really... I don't know, I won't say anything bad about you. But you won't even admit that it's happening! Anyway, please forgive me and consider it a mistake. Also, I hope some useful discussion can now be made about what I have proposed for the paragraph on Fa-rectification, and my responses to Tomananda's proposal. One more thing is that strictly speaking this paragraph should not go in the lede. The lede is supposed to explain the contents of the rest of the article. I have been looking through wikipolicy and style guidelines, and I also checked out some of the feature pages - and we have such a long way to go. Things are getting severly bogged down with unhealthy editing behaviours (I acknowledge and include myself, as well as affirming that I will be much more careful in future), and what I interpret as impure intentions of some editors. Anyway, the lede is supposed to say what the rest of the article will say - and what we are writing will not really end up doing that, particularly with what Tomananda is proposing... Anyway, any ideas, anyone? I want to make a good article - like good enough to be a feature article - but my enthusiasm sometimes gets deterred.--Asdfg12345 00:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I am happy and pleased to see that you are willing to work on this article to make it of high quality and relatively neutral. However, we must first get over what you pass off as facts, such as a 'genocide' of FG practitioners. FG practitioners via your websites have made numerous allegations but almost every point has been met with an official Communist Party of China's rebuttal. If you question once again whether I'm merely some CCP mouthpiece, it would be wise to remember that the CCP actually denies they are even suppressing FG practitioners; I'm not denying that some degree of limitation / restriction of FG practice/practitioners is going on. This is not the same as genocide. However, it is being exaggerated and when more fabrications are used to support what were initially facts then one is inevitably left to question your intentions. Since the 'clampdown' of FG is tremendously controversial, it would be better for an encyclopedia, in keeping with its NPOV policy, to present both sides' views without pre-determining the information for the public.
If you agree that Omido's behavior is worrying then perhaps you'd like to join in the mediation case I've initiated against him. I've deliberately NOT resorted to seeking blocks, bans or ArbCom decisions against him because I want constructive debate from both sides. However, if he persists in being unreasonable and you can show that the majority of FG practitioners are not so, maybe some of the negative perceptions of FG can be dispelled.
Regarding the Fire Star insult point, it was questioning her (?) commitment to NPOV / neutrality. If the user was not deemed responsible then Fire Star wouldn't have been 'approved' as an administrator. Regarding Tomananda, he is only as biased towards the other end as you are biased towards FG. Note that I don't think we have someone who has represented the CCP (the 'official' anti-FG people) view in this discussion yet, so please don't judge me by my introduction of two Xinhua news sources in English that have addressed the issue of FG (although such sites cannot stay on the page with section blankers). In the end, as long as all sides of the FG debate are committed to working towards a GA or better status for this article, we'll have done our role as Wiki editors in improving Wiki as an encyclopedic source. But to maintain this commitment we first need to weed out those who seek to stop our commitment towards this goal! Jsw663 10:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Not just both sides views should be presented, but also third party views. So we should present the third party reports by human rights organisations who have documented the genocide, and who have compiled a large amount of evidence of the genocide. They use the word "persecution" to describe it. Please see these links: www.david-kilgour.com/2006/Kilgour-Matas-organ-harvesting-rpt-July6-eng.pdf - that is the report on organ harvesting. I request that you read it in its entirety, and then respond to me with some concrete weak points in it, or points that you dispute, or reasons that you doubt the organ harvesting is/was taking place. I mean cite it, then say "well, this point seems a bit weak", or "I disagree with it for exactly this reason" You must read it all. Make sure you read it. I want you to say very specific things in your dispute of this genocide, and not just vague or off-the-cuff remarks. You need to actually look at the evidence, then say some concrete things in response to it. There is also another I request you look at: http://www.flghrwg.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1027&Itemid= That is the UN 2004 report on the persecution. Do you see the photos of that woman with the burnt and smashed face? or the emaciated man? There are also numerous photos of corpses which are smashed up, bruised, or with large scars down the chest. Do you think that they are fake, then? It is claimed that they are Falun Gong practitioners and that the CCP did that to them. That is what the third party reports say, and what Falun Gong practitioners say. What do you say? They fell down a flight of stairs? Or do you say that the photos were created using photoshop? WAKE UP! WAKE UP! FALUN GONG PRACTITIONERS ARE BEING KILLED, TORTURED TO DEATH, RAPED, BEATEN TO DEATH, AND THEY ARE HAVING THEIR ORGANS REMOVED WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE! READ THE KILGOUR-MATAS REPORT! READ THE UN REPORT!

If you do not read them, and if you do not base further refutations of the genocide on actual responses to the material I am presenting you, if you keep talking around the issue, and if you do not cite the sources and say specific points where you see them to be weak, or where that what they are saying and the evidence they are presenting is not true, and how it is not true - then at least you will not be able to claim that you are neutral or care about the truth, and at worst I do not want to think. --Asdfg12345 13:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

late 2006 commments

  • I would note the quality of this page as unstable and BIASED therefore i would give it a 2 from a total of 5. As I see it, this page is written by only two groups, Chinese Communist Party members who have a direct interest (power, money, greed) to hide/obfuscate the details and the motives behind the Persecution of Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners who, since are not paid, I guess, would know the actual facts about Falun Gong since they are actually doing it daily. --HappyInGeneral 13:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you for raising this question. Please hear my say, which I agree is a speculation, but a very logical one. CCP has the largest propaganda machine on this planet, this is a fact. When you search for Falun Gong on Google [2], this article of Wikipedia comes up, this is a fact. CCP has banned Falun Gong and has a heavy propaganda inside China and outside as well where it can. Now this make me think that it is sure to have CCP propaganda members on the Wikipages, although they will not tell me nor tell you. But then again if they would tell us at some point there might be fines, going to jail on selling state secrets, etc..., in short if they are among us they are not encouraged to tell us. Since I don't know who they are I'm not accusing any individual of this, but this does not impede me to think and be quite certain that there are many, perhaps all in the row of Falun Gong critics. Why would the CCP do this? Well read this [3] and allow to highlight the following:
1) doing so paints the oppressor in a rosy light, as if it were stomping out society’s bad elements; if people knew the truth about what Falun Gong is they would be outraged at the communist regime’s actions
2) by shifting attention to Falun Gong’s beliefs, the spotlight is removed from the practices of China’s regime, which include the brutal torture and even murder of Falun Gong’s followers;
3) by painting Falun Gong as weird, cultish, or different from you and me, it hopes to scare people away from the issue, make things seem terribly messy, and dull the listener’s humanity, as it were.
In short, the attempt is to undermine sympathy and support for Falun Gong, to alienate the group, and to justify what is in essence simply another attempt by the Chinese leadership to exercise totalitarian control.
Also please for further questions try to contact me directly and we can sort this out, otherwise this page might get big as this one got [4], in an attempt to try to confuse things? I'm not sure so I'm not going to hold that against you. --HappyInGeneral 14:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
By all means, I don't believe that every Falun Gong critic is a CCP agent. That's not possible. I agree that there might be an unknown number of these people among the editors, and we don't know who they are or their connections, but the majority of critics probably belongs to either of these groups: 1) people who have read Dafa and think it's not good, no matter what their reasons are; 2) people who've formed their opinion after being deeply influenced by the propaganda in Mainland China. ---Olaf Stephanos 15:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Fact: there are no statistics to support that the CCP has the largest propaganda machine on this planet. I would have thought the USA had the biggest + most effective one.
Fact: Chinese inside mainland China cannot access the Wiki page on Falun Gong.
Fact: The CCP or CPC or whatever you call it is having a very hard time censoring the internet.
Combining facts 2 and 3, we ask why the CCP would waste its resources to change opinions for a page they have already blocked. That is a waste of resources seen as scarce to them already.
Fact: It doesn't take a CCP member to be critical of Falun Gong.
Fact: It doesn't take a member with CCP sympathies or be 'brainwashed' to be critical of Falun Gong. HiG, you yourself said on Wiki that Li Hongzhi predicted the downfall of the CCP in 2005, yet this never happened - is this a critique of Li Hongzhi?
Fact: Not everyone who reads the Falun Dafa necessarily thinks that everything about it is bad.
Now for my opinion. A lot of 'independent' sources quoted by pro-FGers are notably pro-FG. If I were to use your earlier logic, should I speculate that they must have been brainwashed by Falun Gong propaganda, were paid agents of FG or come up with speculative-paranoid conspiracy theories? Most FG critics here have a very negative opinion of the CCP in case you haven't noticed, strongly objecting to their authoritarian style. Most FG critics also don't think that FG is 100% or 99% bad, even if FGers think the CCP is 99-100% bad. However, many of those viewing FG being put into practice will also notice it shares many characteristics with other cults in that it alters 'mainstream cults' (= religions) teachings for its own benefit - for the benefit of one person who has absolute, unquestioning authority. Since most FG critics are also CCP critics BECAUSE both share the characteristic of unquestioning authority, they are critical of BOTH. This is why your opinion that there 'must be' many CCP-brainwashed persons or CCP agents out there is simply unfounded. If Wikipedia were a representative sample, then you should stop alienating those who are critical of FG by labelling them as Communist agents or whatever, because you may actually find more support by 1. NOT imposing your opinion on others; 2. not accuse everyone of being 100% evil (because if the CCP is 100% evil, then their agents must be 100% evil...) and 3. spend your time sharing the political anti-CCP beliefs that the self-claimed apolitical Falun Gong does. Jsw663 19:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your input Jsw, this way things presented here are certainly not one sided. Now with the 2 theories (POV) present on the table the reader can decide for himself :) And I find that rather comforting :) --HappyInGeneral 11:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
And quite clearly I am not representing the anti-FG (pro-CCP) view. Hope you noticed that. Jsw663 13:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Currently on-going is an edit war between NPOV and FLG editors. Colipon+(T) 03:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

That is your POV. My POV is that I welcome any truly NPOV well sourced edits which considers the whole context. --HappyInGeneral 14:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The edit war is between three camps; anti-FG, pro-FG and third-party. It is hard to find anyone NPOV, because once they know enough about the subject, there is no such thing as a neutral stance in this controversial matter. Jsw663 19:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Kilgour-Matas report

Oh hey Asdfg, weren't you the one not too long ago promoting WP:Civility? Is type-shouting "WAKE UP! WAKE UP!" a sign of civility and a cool head? Then you insist on "neutrality" yet all, and I mean ALL the 3rd party sources you quote are pro-human rights people or organizations. Funny I never hear about the US State Dept report that dismissed the organ harvesting allegation by FG. But this is just one instance of the numerous apparent inconsistencies you show - the Wiki discussion archives reveal quite a lot. Since you accuse me of never responding to your sources although you never address all my points in my posts, if I in fact DO address them, will you do the same for me? I wonder. FG practitioners keep on saying Falun Gong is 'good' yet they don't tolerate any criticism. I wonder if this doesn't apply to their sources too.
So, the Kilgour-Matas report. I'll split my reply into several parts because it's going to be LONG (since it is a 66-page document, after all). Let's analyze it in detail - and start by quoting the report directly:

"The allegations... are difficult to prove or disprove. The best evidence... is eye witness evidence. Yet for this alleged crime, there is unlikely to be any eye witness evidence." (p. 2-3)

OK, so what exactly is Kilgour and Matas drawing their conclusions on if nothing can be proven or disproven due to a lack of quality evidence? They continue...

"There are no bystanders... there is no body to be found... we garnered... admissions through... phone calls." (p.3).

Wow, although there is UNLIKELY to be any eye-witness evidence, suddenly they can make firm statements like there are NO bystanders and that there is NO body for autopsies to be conducted on. That's either an empty assertion or a groundless implication. Then they admit they gathered their evidence through phone calls. PHONE CALLS? I don't even recall a criminal trial where a defendant was convicted based on phone calls!!

"The scene of the crime, if the crime has occurred, leaves no traces." (p.3)

In the previous sentence Kilgour/Matas said how many 'surprising admissions' they got from phone calls yet once it comes to the execution room the same Chinese authorities are so professional that they have never left a single trace; never made a single slip or error. Does that sound plausible or logical to you?

"We did seek to visit China in this report. Our efforts went nowhere... Our request for a meeting was accepted. But the person who met with David Kilgour was interested only in denying allegations and not in arranging for our visit." (p.4)

OK, so let me get a few things straight here. Neither Kilgour nor Matas was able to visit China yet Kilgour, as a top criminal prosecutor, though the criminal burden of proof (Canada follows the common law system) was met by a few phone calls. They thought that conclusions could be conclusive despite never having visited the country. Then when they did meet with the official who did not give the responses they were seeking, they dismissed them as only interested in "denying allegations". Very objective indeed.

"Many of these pieces of evidence we considered, in themselves, do not constitute ironclad proof of the allegation. But their non-existence might well have constituted disproof. The combination of these factors, particularly when there are so many of them, has the effect of making the allegations believable, even when any one of them in isolation might not do so. Where every element of disproof we identify fails to disprove the allegations, the likelihood of the allegations being true becomes substantial." (p.4)

Talk about general sweeping statements. Kilgour and Matas is in effect asking us to LEAP to conclusions based on the limited evidence they have. That's like convicting a person of theft when nobody knew where that person was, no positive DNA test could be made, although he was seen by a few bystanders a while ago within the vicinity of the crime when it was committed. The last sentence of the above quotation is even more shocking coming from a supposedly experienced prosecutor. Just because the facts they report may suggest or encourage one to infer a certain conclusion, can that be upheld in any court? We need concrete facts and evidence, not inferences based on a few phone calls.

"Criminal investigation normally works deductively, stringing together individual pieces of evidence into a coherent whole." (p.4)

And indeed, a whole range of conclusions, including totally contradictory ones, can be arrived via deductions. This is one of the first lessons we learn from Evidence Law. If everyone were to come to the same conclusion based on a hazy set of facts, there would be no need for barristers/solicitors (lawyers).

From p.5 onwards, esp. pp.5-7 ref. here

Painting a shockingly biased picture of Falun Gong's history, full of one-sided sources which amounts to nothing less than propaganda. So what do I base this on? The description of the Falun Gong's history esp. pp.6-8 based on an academic at Yale. The entire piece is littered with adjectives/phrases aimed to pre-form the reader's opinions: "The non-violent phase" of FG, how their source David Ownby writes "candidly" (implying the other side isn't), how Li "had fallen into disfavour" so he had to emigrate to the US (as if he was forced to despite his innocent beliefs!?), and how FG practitioners are "ordinary Chinese citizens" (implying the rest are not ordinary?).

David Ownby / p.8

Encouraging people to disbelieve the Chinese government's statements on Falun Gong SIMPLY BECAUSE they had a poor human rights record (see the 1st of the 2 paragraphs quoted). Then the second paragraph (I won't quote it here): my response: the Chinese government must seek 'third party verification' that Falun Gong is a cult yet Canadians and Americans (who Ownby speaks for?) do not even need facts, or knowledge, to conclude that FG practice bears little resemblance to cults. So Ownby would rather trust the average Canadian and American than any official from the Chinese government... sounds rather subjective and opinionated, doesn't it?

2nd section on 'persecution' / pp. 8-9

"The secrecy of policy formulation in China prevents us from determining whether such a policy exists... Nonetheless, we do know that persecution of Falun Gong exists." (p.8) Wow, Kilgour and Matas knows what goes on in the CCP although they don't have any facts. Oh wait, they quoted one official on p.9... then asserting "It appears... after this meeting that the deaths of adherents at police hands began to be recorded as suicides." Funny how that verbal quote was never sourced. There is no 'third party verification' to back up such a statement was made. In fact, Kilgour/Matas only claims it was made in 1999, yet cannot even give a specific date!!! Yet they can say that after this meeting that FG deaths were recorded as suicides, despite this not being based on a single shred of evidence. We need proof, or at least a verifiable source if they're quoting one. If you demand the CCP to back up their statements with 3rd-party verifications, the least you could do is to show them that you do the same for your own sources.

The next paragraph is then based on FG practitioners' comments. Very objective.

3rd section on 'incitement to hatred' / pp. 9-10

"The Falun Gong are dehumanized both in word and deed."

This coming from the authors who say the Guantanamo Bay supporter in the US is more trustworthy than the CCP. The rest of that paragraph also contains a notable lack of examples. Amnesty Intl is then quoted, but not without very loaded words to give the wrong impression via exaggeration. Whilst that may be normal coming from a human rights group, such over-biasedness should not be the words of the 'independent' investigator who justifies / bases the legitimacy of his report on his post and years of experience in the Canadian legal system.

Self-immolation incident / Tianmen Square / doubt / pp.9-10: "There is considerable concern whether in reality the government staged the entire incident."

Once again, basing doubts on no evidence. I have watched the FG videos 'doubting' the incident (although it only raises question marks; it doesn't disprove it). Is Kilgour and Matas encouraging us to engage in conspiracy theories? Did the US send the first man to walk on the moon-type accusations?

Hate propaganda / p.10

Wow, Kilgour/Matas has determined CCP statements are hate propaganda without questioning FG statements. Without using a single quoted example, they can conclude "harvesting their organs and killing them in the process ceases to be implausible." (p.10) Such a leap of logic is what I find most implausible of all. There is nothing here to disprove yet again because the allegations are not based on a single example or fact.

4. Massive Arrests / p.10

Yet another paragraph where Kilgour/Matas is encouraging the reader to infer all sorts of stuff via logic-twisting. Sorry, I need the facts. And if the only 'fact' in that paragraph is a FG author who claimed to have seen classified information without any independent verification of this, how much credibility does such a claim have? If one of the ex-FG people here, for example, suddenly claimed that 70m FG practitioners were being robbed daily by Li Hongzhi, would you believe that?

up to p.12

Yup, this coming from the person who regards the opinion of the person who justifies Guantanamo Bay under the War of Terror higher than the CCP official. And yes, it's even more interesting to note that the sources used here are US sources. Would Kilgour and Matas trust CCP's White Paper on human rights on the US of what's going on in Gitmo just as much? Or do they harbor some personal grudge against the CCP?

6. Unidentified/Disappeared / pp.13-4

A fantasy tale where even the authors had to admit "a person can go missing for a variety of reasons" (p.14) Not exactly 'concrete' evidence now, is it? I don't know of any government on this planet which has been able to account for every single one of its citizens every year, let alone in its history. Kilgour and Matas then concludes that their wild speculation is 'consistent with other allegations' which, coincidentally, are also based on the same wild speculation. It's amazing there's so little to question in a supposedly fact-finding independent report because there are so few facts present to be questioned.

7. Transplants / pp. 14-8

Talk about speculation!!!

8. Blood Testing / p.18

There are two ways to suggest more strongly that FG practitioners are being singled out for blood testing - 1) that few or none of the other prisoners in similar situations are being blood-tested; 2) that medical records are not kept for prisoners in a similar situation. But until then, this is once again pure speculation - a stab in the dark.

9. Corpses with missing organs / pp. 18-9

Yet another stab in the dark. Such unexplained / inexplicable incidents are not unique to China or developing countries either.

10. 'Confession' / p. 19

ONE person who is 'confessing' someone ELSE'S crime. Wow. Where would trials be nowadays if we didn't need more than one person 'confessing' someone else's crime?

11. 'Admission' / pp. 19-20

Per above. Unsustainable. How much weight can be given to such testimony?

11. Hospitals / pp.20-6

Condemned prisoners inevitably include FGers. The majority of the phone call transcripts mentioned in the report would fit under that umbrella. If I recall correctly the CCP (in its reports) hasn't denied that there has been corruption even among medical practitioners. But to select a few examples and conclude it is state policy is going too far. Using this to then justify overthrowing the CCP is even more extreme. Also, the CCP passed a law in mid-2006 to regulate organ donor practices, did it not?

12. Waiting times / pp.26-7

Nothing proven yet again.

13. Websites / pp.27-31

What they meant was probably the organs were extracted from recently deceased bodies. But there's no doubt, FG practitioners have a poor history with regards to technology wars. Any '3rd party' verification that such a version of the website existed at such dates?

14. Victim Interviews / pp.31-33

What a 'neutral' title to the section. Although these testimonies won't be dismissed outright by the neutral person, they won't be given much weight either until everything alleged is checked and verified to be true. It needs backing up. Until then, what is alleged cannot be passed off as fact and needs to be taken with a big pinch of salt.

15. HR 'violations' / p.34

This has nothing to do with the CCP v FG; this is just 'character' assassination / propaganda. So-called absences of rule of law would seem suspect. Saying China "is not ruled by law" (p.34) is clearly b.s. and such a statement can only be made by those (almost completely) ignorant of the Chinese system. And before you ask how on earth I'd know about the Chinese legal system, don't forget I did study law in Hong Kong (which included compulsory subjects like PRC law). And no, I didn't change my profile overnight to justify this paragraph either.

16. Financial / pp. 34-5

Proves nothing yet again. Want a few more stabs in the dark?

17. Corruption / pp. 35-6

I don't think the CCP denies this exists. But to say that FG organ extraction is the result of official policy, or that corruption is the 'unofficial' arm of CCP policy, is clearly crap! The only way to show it is not crap is to back it up with actual evidence, rather than vague general FG propaganda-statements like "Trafficking in Falun Gong vital organs would be consistent with the numerous other commercial activities on the part of the Chinese army, especially in the years up until 2004 while Jiang was chairman of the country's Military Commission." (p.35) . If Kilgour/Matas demand that CCP statements be backed up by third-party investigation, what about this wild allegation they're making? Note the lack of sources next to that sentence in the report.

18. Legislation / pp. 36-7

Glad to see Kilgour/Matas welcome and admit such a legislation. But little have they realized that by embracing this their previous allegation of live organ removal from FG practitioners as 'state policy' is clearly garbage when the CCP are in fact doing the opposite - taking steps to clamp down on such corruption.

G. Credibility / pp. 37-

"We conclude that the verbal admissions in the transcripts of interviews of investigators can be trusted. There is no doubt in our minds that these interviews did take place with the persons claimed to be interviewed at the time and place indicated... the content of what was said can be believed." (p.37) Wow, talk about forming opinions FOR other people. Odd how there is NO DOUBT in Kilgour/Matas' minds that these witnesses were telling the complete truth yet all CCP officials were undoubtedly not telling so. This seems shockingly reflective of Li Hongzhi's "Falun Gong is 100% good" and "CCP is 100% evil" approach, not of the experienced state prosecutor who should be fully aware of both sides' risks and shortcomings.

"The testimony of the wife of the surgeon allegedly complicit in the Falun Gong organ harvesting was credible to us, partly because of the extreme detail." (p.38) I don't want to offend any women on this board, but it has been known that in rape trials, amazingly intricate detail has been given of 'alleged' rapes by accusers, yet the accused had to be set free when clearly disproved by DNA tests. This is NOT putting women in a bad light, but rather that the human brain is capable of very vivid imagination, even convincing oneself that something happened even though it didn't. To add insult to injury the authors then add, "it provided a good deal of information which it was impossible to corroborate independently" (p.38) . To put this in normal English, Kilgour and Matas are saying that despite all the detail this woman gives which they rest their credibility of the woman's testimony on, they cannot verify a single allegation / statistic this woman is making. Sounds a little suspect, doesn't it?

The quote by the F. Frankfurter SCJ though irrelevant, can be applied both ways - something Kilgour and Matas may not have been aware of at the time of writing due to being so clouded emotionally from reality. After all, why would I say FG practitioners are lying since they are merely reproducing what they read on FG propaganda sources here and on their pamphlets? It's just that that their propaganda seems unbelievable, that's all.

H. Further Investigation

Wow, they now say their conclusions are tentative only despite passing them off as real facts earlier on. Maybe this should be a warning to FG practitioners too trying to pass off 'persecution' and 'genocide' as facts.

I. Conclusions

Why am I not surprised they "came" to this conclusion? Judging by their use of language throughout they came to their conclusion right from the start of their report, and were stabbing in the dark, desperately grabbing onto anything that could be held onto to justify their skewed judgement coloured by their emotions and anti-CCP sentiments.

J. Recommendations

Even more laughable and ridiculous since their conclusions are only 'tentative'. Sure, some of those recommendations can be implemented, but the vast majority are about as likely to happen as the US will turn over the complete records of the prisoners they detain at Guantanamo Bay. In fact, if we were to follow Kilgour and Matas' recommendations based on their principles, there should be no such crime as treason, revealing state secrets, overthrowing governments, etc.! That's just not possible, or realistic. As for the concept of the death penalty, I'll leave this up to your personal opinion. All I can do is to remind you that countries of all ideologies, i.e. US + China, still practise it nowadays.

SOOOO.... Asdfg, conclusion for the Kilgour-Matas report? A wonderful FG propaganda leaflet for the most part! Let me quote anti-CCP activist Harry Wu: "No pictures, no witnesses, no paperwork, no detailed information at all, nothing." If FG is making the allegations, the burden of proof is on you / them. Despite finding almost all their conclusions far too hasty and inconclusive, some of the evidence (when found, of course) there can indeed be used for the anti-CCP movement. But no matter what, it is definitely NOT the case that genocide OR persecution is a fact. It would be great if you could treat the anti-FG sources such as the dismissal of the Sujiatun incident about mass organ harvesting with the same detailed analysis. The ball's now in your court, although it always was since you were promoting the 'goodness' of FG, but now you have no more excuses left.

To conclude, Asdfg, maybe you'll have the courtesy to reply to the points in my previous post as well as this one. As you are such a promoter of constructive debate, consensus and working towards a good article based on WIKIPEDIAN principles, will you do Wikipedia the service of joining in to clamp down on Omido's behavior? Naturally the best way is if you could get Omido to stop his disruptive section-blanking, but if we are both committed to Wikipedian principles you have to show it by action too and not shy away from it when the occasion calls for it. Come on, we are fighting for a common cause here! Jsw663 19:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

PS To paraphrase you, if you don't do what I asked of you above, then at best you're a diehard FGer with no interest in upholding Wikipedian encyclopedic values here and only seek to spread propaganda. At worst, I don't even want to think about it.  :-) Jsw663 20:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Can I do a thing, that you usually don't like? That is to respond point by point in your post? That is I would maintain the sections that are your's by copying your signature to that point? And then I would put in my own response. I would like to do it this way, because your post is way too long. BTW I don't consider that this is a bad thing (your post being long) because it actually shows a lot of energy from your part placed into this post. --HappyInGeneral 14:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted you to read about what is happening. I just wanted to make sure you read it. I don't want to compete with you or debate with you. I want to tell you that I, as a Falun Gong practitioner, have no interest in politics, and that I just want to cultivate my heart and achieve completion. All of us are this way. Those in China are the same, they want to do the exercises and read the books and that's all, but they are being persecuted and villified in a very brutal, nasty and evil way. We have spoken up about this and contextualised it with regard to the CCP's violent history. There are also some other issues, but you have heard it all by now. I hope you look through the UN report as well. If you have read those things and you hold the above attitude, then that is your choosing your own self. I do not need to respond on a point by point basis because I would just be repeating the things in the report, which you seem to have already looked at. So there's no point repeating them. It's all there for you, and what you choose is up to you. About Omido: I'm not responsible for what he does. I do not agree with some of his edits or approaches. Though actually, I think the behaviour of a lot of anti-Falun Gong editors is even more outrageous, and the intentions are less than pure. I have told Omido in an email that I myself see no problem with some criticism, and if this situation persisted I would seek to talk to him further to help him to understand my perspective. The reason I type-yelled at you was because I thought it may work, so I apologise if it was only uncivil and did not really help you. I say I don't want to think about it, because you seem to have no righteous thoughts left in you, and your ignorance of the truth of your situation is so enourmous and it is so pitiful. About Fire Star: sysop privileges are nothing, and it does not mean that person is infallible at all. Fire Star has clearly demonstrated her bias on numerous occasions, calling Falun Gong a cult, Li Hongzhi a crazy man, and also pushing for "Suppression" instead of "Persecution" - when going by the definitions that is in fact saying that the CCP has not killed, or does not kill, Falun Gong practitioners - something which, based on a large body of objective evidence, is clearly not true. I am going to take a break from wikipedia until February.--Asdfg12345 02:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Asdfg, you demanded that I read pro-FG sources which I have done numerous times before but never have I done a detailed critique. You then say I cannot qualify my comments without doing so. Now that I've done a detailed critique you say that there's no point replying. Is this the 'constructive debate' pro-FGers are capable of?
Did you even READ what I wrote above? Point by point? I said the Kilgour-Matas report reads like a FG propaganda leaflet because it does not base its sources on facts. It draws conclusions based on leaps of logic and a few phone calls. Since it is not based on facts it has NOT, I repeat NOT proven any genocide or persecution as having existed, ever. But then the problem of utter bigotry isn't on my part now, is it - the one refusing to read critique of your allegations is brushed off as 'misguided' somehow. Do you not realize the sheer absurdity of your comments? But then if you did maybe you wouldn't be able to place yourself under the spell of Li Hongzhi.
The CCP seems to be stopping any possibility of a personality cult that will personally benefit Li Hongzhi. This is to stop a person who has constantly sought to overthrow the CCP and install himself in power (which he will claim he'll do so 'reluctantly', if he succeeds). There is nothing 'evil' about this clampdown at all but to protect national security.
You accuse me of not being neutral although I back up every single point with the appropriate Wikipedian policy or argument point. You claim to be working for wikipedia / encyclopedic content but have no interest in stopping vandals. In fact, you promote their version then claim it was a 'mistake'. You say I have no 'righteous thoughts' although you never base this on anything. Accuse the CCP of something and base it on a fact, then we can analyze it. Accuse the CCP of something, exaggerate it with fabrications then pass it off as a fact, is nothing short of slander. Look at how hypocritical your comments are first. Who's encouraging you not to think for yourself?
The 'objective evidence' used is suspect in credibility and one-sided. I pointed out inconsistencies, such as the surgeon's wife's testimony, despite it being 'credible' due to immense 'detail', yet not a single detail could be proven as fact or backed up by a truly independent source, or that somehow the CCP left no traces of killings or torture behind yet they spilt lots of 'evidence' via phone calls. What is your response? To repeat the same tired old propaganda again? Is this the sign of an independent thinker? Can you respond to this question?
Asdfg your sheer refusal to air any views not given by Li Hongzhi or pro-FG source demonstrates two things - narrow-mindedness and total lack of independent thinking. This is further supported by a complete intolerance of non-pro-FG supported criticism, or at least drastically reduced in quantity, and only about points which the pro-FG propaganda machine has already addressed via exaggerations and half-truths. I claim relative neutrality and have shown that I deal with both sides' sources equally. You claim relative neutrality yet are totally unable to form opinions of your own, consider sources equally and make excuses like taking a Wikibreak when you cannot find a Li Hongzhi-approved answer. It's time you reflected on your own logic first before you accuse others of being 'evil'. If not, your accusations hold as much weight as all the "facts" and "evidence" used, which essentially consists of wild speculations and outrageous logic-twisting. "Genocide" and "persecution" cannot be justified on a few suspicious phone calls. The least you could do would be to respond to my detailed critique of the K-M report. Shame on you, Asdfg, for not being able to practice what you preach or demand of others. Jsw663 08:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
"Accuse the CCP of something and base it on a fact, then we can analyze it." Please tell me what facts would you find acceptable, since you refuse&mock evidence like phone calls, witnesses reports, common sense like there is no way to find a suitable willing donor in 1 week, pictures about the persecution [5], etc ... in the context in which the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (CIPFG) is not allowed to go in to investigate, and also Kilgour/Matas is not allowed to go in and investigate. The rapporteur on torture who finally was able to go in China concluded that the torture is still widespread. As far as I can see your only goal is to dismiss by any means any accusation against the CCP like the ones for killing, torturing, brainwashing Falun Gong practitioners, because this way there will be less pressure on the party officials and they can keep doing/hiding their deeds. So then again who is paying your paycheck? Also for those who are in doubts I recommend reading the actual report or watching the conference in which Kilgour and Matas were invited [6] [7]. --HappyInGeneral 13:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
My goal is to uphold Wikipedian values, and not pass off inferences as facts, i.e. resistance to bias from both sides. Please do not go into personal attacks by asking who is paying my paycheck since I could ask the same thing of you - it is not helpful to discussion. I can ask your aims on Wikipedia too, but then would you be as honest as Omido? Jsw663 20:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Asdfg: You ask Jsw to read the Kilgour-Matas report, he reads it and responds with an incredibly thorough critique challenging its methodology and conclusions...and then, for all his efforts at taking your arguments seriously, your only response is to attack him? You say Jsw seems to have no righteous thoughts left in him? You attack him for being "ignorant of the truth", Fire Star for being "biased" and FG critics in general for having impure intentions, and that's it? Is that really the best you can offer in response to Jsw's point-by-point challenge to the Kilgour-Matas report?
For FG practitioners it doesn't matter what is objectively true, because you have been given the truth from Master Li and as long as you fulfill his requirements for "Fa-rectification Dafa disciples" you can look forward to achieving consumsation. Asdfg: when it comes to being an honest editor for Wikipedia, it is clear from your own say-so that when matters of fact are challenged and you do not have a reasonable response to those challenges, you will resort to an ad hominum argument, rather than acknowledging that maybe the FG is not 100% truthful. It's clear from Master' Li's many utterances that your consumation depends on your effectiveness in destroying the CCP and as long as you are doing things to destroy the CCP the Master even permits you to violate the principles of the universe. For those readers who are not familiar with this teaching, please read Li's carefully worded instructions called "The limits to forebearance" [8]
For Li Hongzhi "forbearance" and "truth" are now sacrificed on the alter of expediencey. As I've pointed out before, Li relies on an instrumental definition of truth: any story about abuse of FG practitioners at the hands of the evil party is counted as true, as long as those stories work to destroy the CCP. Thus "truth" for the Falun Gong is measured solely based on how useful it is in demonizing the CCP in the West and underming its authority in China. Li makes your very salvation dependent upon how effective you are at spinning the truth to meet his goals. Surely even some Falun Gong practitioners have had doubts about this strategy.
And once again you trout out the tired defense that you are not being "political." Well, sure, I wouldn't say that you are being "political"...you are just selfishly seeking your own salvation (consumation) at the expense of the truth. In the final analysis, it is not "truth, forebearance and benevolence" that the FG stands for, it is the destruction of the Chinese Communist Party. Whether that goal is legitimate or not, I am amazed that you can so easily abandon your committment to the principles of the universe in an effort to reach consumation. Someone once said that the first casualty of war is the truth, and that certainly fits the battle between Li Honzhi's army of disciples and the Chinese Communist Party. To use Li's own terms, it's a cosmic battle between good and evil...and as with any battle, all that matters is which side wins, not which side tells the truth.
As for editing for this article, I feel there has been a terrible failure of process. Many of us did "the right thing" by formally asking for mediation, and instead we have been ignored by the mediator. I, too, will be taking a break from Wikipedia. --Tomananda 04:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
What you say that is spinning the truth is actually stating the truth. On how we choose the truth to tell is certainly tied to the urgency dictated by the persecution in China. Why is urgent and not leisurely, if you still don’t know try to hold your hand in the fire for 10 seconds. Then perhaps you can understand the urgency. Consider this: in each and every moment there is a Dafa practitioners being tortured, by means just as bad as you having your hand in fire [9], and I believe this is a terrible thing, on which I can not turn a blind eye. Since you now see things in this light I hope that you can also understand why we do things the way we do. For non-practitioners our actions for only clarifying the truth and not raising any violence, might even seem too feeble, but we believe that our combined actions are not feeble at all. --HappyInGeneral 14:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Spinning the truth is only considering one side's case. Being relatively objective is considering both sides'. Jsw663 14:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually I would very much like to see an independent investigations inside China. But for the moment we are considering the stories [10] that those practitioners who practice Truth as part of their cultivation of Truthfulness Compassion Forbearance tell us, as well as other sources like the organ harvest investigation [11], like the independent investigator on torture or Mr McMillan-Scott [12] and others said about this issue. I find that this case is already very well documented and getting to the surface some very terrible scenes while the CCP’s propaganda machine (biggest in the world) is working hard to mock it and confuse it. --HappyInGeneral 14:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
And once again you use ONLY pro-FG sources. Wikipedia is not a FG-advertising site. You should be aware of that by now. Jsw663 20:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
What is wrong with that as long as the source is valid? --HappyInGeneral 17:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It is only OK if balanced out equally with pro-CCP sources against Falun Gong. Judging by Omido's and your recent edits before the sysop ban, you are clearly not interested in presenting both sides equally. Jsw663 12:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually I'm not stopping any well sourced edit which is discussed and agreed. I think it is OK if I present some information and others present some other information. I hope that you are not implying that my sources can not be good just because they are pro Falun Gong. I hope that you are not trying to impose some kind of discrimination here. As far as I know the only criteria about a source being valid or not on wikipedia is if it's well sourced and it's not OR. But please correct me if I'm wrong. --HappyInGeneral 14:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Did I ever imply that FG sources shouldn't be included simply because they were FG? Whether they're "good" or not is irrelevant - (objective) facts aren't (subjectively) morality based. What 'discrimination' have I tried to 'impose' here? If anything, I've been trying to prevent FG people from imposing their biased version of the FG entry for a long time, as well as preventing pro-CCP edits (though there is an overwhelming number of the former and almost total absence of the latter). If this isn't pro-FG discrimination being imposed on Wikipedia, what is? So instead of mudslinging and accusing me of this and that although I never implied such a thing, I suggest you look at your own conduct and edits. Your tacit support for section- and page-blankers time and time again have been distinctly unhelpful. PS Stick to helping improve the article, not labelling anyone not pro-FG as 'bad' or 'evil'. Jsw663 15:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
You said: "Did I ever imply that FG sources shouldn't be included simply because they were FG?". Well I got this distinct impression, but since you say that this is not the case, please accept my apologies, in the hopes that you were right and I was wrong. --HappyInGeneral 14:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe that after all this time some of you still continue to waste yours and everyone else's time with useless insults and sarcastic remarks. It's such a waste of time reading through most of this bickering. The Kilgour-Matas report does not prove that there organ harvesting is taking place, but it gives good reason to believe there is. You can look at any one of the 18 elements of proof in the report and say that it doesn't give reason to believe this is really going on or that it's imperfect for such and such reason, but the validity of the report doesn't rest on any one element; it's the combination of all of them that lead to Kilgour and Matas' conclusion. The validity of the report also rests on the judgement of these two individuals. This former Crown Prosecuter and this renowned human-rights lawyer have both been around for a long time and have quite the reputations in Canada. Their judgement is respected, which is one reason why governments around the world are taking the report seriously.

I've got a question: Is there anyone here that denies that the Chinese authorities have tortured Falun Gong practitioners to death? I'm not talking about how many. I'm asking if anyone denies that this is happening at all. I'm only participating in this discussion becuase I hope that it might lead to a decision being made over which terms to use, ie. suppression, persection, genocide, etc. Mcconn 18:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The debate about FLG instead of debate on the article about FLG is pointless. Of course there are reports about FLG followers and other dissidents being improsoned, tortured, killed and even harvested by the CCP. If they are from notable reporters or other groups, they should be mentioned. What editors think of the likelihood of such things happening or not happening is immaterial to the article. --Fire Star 火星 20:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Even though I'm "on break" I want to also agree with Fire Star here, but point out that as a consequence Wikipedia cannot report the "persecution" of the Falun Gong as a fact in the article. The only possible purpose for discussing what the editors think about this issue is to show that there is no agreement on the FG's claims of persecution at the hands of "Chinese authorities." To say otherwise would be far too POV. As many editors had previously agreed, the term "Suppression" of the Falun Gong is probably the furthest we can go for the title of the daughter page, and even that might be construed as too POV. Alternatively, we might say "alleged persecution" but that title was rejected as I remember.
It's important to point out that even though there are certainly cases of local police abuse of prisoners in China (and that would include FG practitioners), none of those cases support the conclusion that Beijing itself has a pro-torture policy or, worse yet, condones anything even remotely like the "genocide" of a group of people. In fact, the opposite is true: Beijing authorities have publicly acknowledged the problem of corrupt local officials who take the law into their own hands and the central government's campaign against this kind of corruption is well known and documented. Once one recognizes that Li Hongzhi's goal is the destruction of the CCP, and that his disciples have a long history of bending the truth to satisfy Li's demands, all those stories about genocide and live organ harvesting begin to make some sense. --Tomananda 01:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd just like to reply to McConn / Fire Star here. Let me do it in the form of a Q+A to start off. Is this section a discussion of FLG? Yes. Isn't that what Wiki is not supposed to be? Yes. So why is a Wiki-defender like myself doing this? Because pro-FG people are passing off conjecture and speculation as (objective/neutral) facts. Wiki must report notable and trustworthy sources (WP:Reliable Sources) and when doing so, must acknowledge that the source's author(s) thought that. If the source is stating something as fact, let it be said and acknowledged as such. But not only is the Kilgour/Matas report suspect in credibility, they themselves admit that they have only come to tentative conclusions, yet FG people here using the source quote him as if they were saying some kind of Bible-like 'ultimate truths'. That is what needs to be distinguished. I know it is hard to do, but this article must try to be as encyclopedic as possible. If we report wild speculations by both sides then that goal will never be achievable.
This is also why I don't disagree completely with either McConn or Fire Star in this instance. Yes, I do hope the persecution/suppression discussion will continue, as McConn said. I also hope to avoid a FG discussion on the board like Fire Star said. This is also why I hesitated whether to reply to Happy in General's comments. I think I've come to the conclusion that it's better if HiG contacted me personally and/or debated the fine details somewhere else, like my own talk page, or via AIM / MSN Messenger / YIM / (Q)ICQ etc.
I didn't want to have to give a long, detailed answer in the form of this section (reply to the KM report), but if FG people want to dismiss all my arguments towards a constructive solution by saying I'm not a FG practitioner, somehow pure 'evil', inherently biased (eg CCP 'dog' or something) or will never consider both sides' sources equally, this section should serve as an example to dismiss all that. I hope both sides will understand the purpose of this section this one time. Jsw663 10:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me ask again, is it OK from your point of view, for me to answer about your analysis of the KM report inside your post because it's too long, or should I do it in a different post, in which case this page will grow and grow. I think I'll do the later if I don't get an answer from you because there are many flaw's in it. And just to make it clear, I'm not concerned about you to understand those flaw's, because I'm pretty sure that you do understand them, I'm concerned rather of those who will look only to your so called analysis and will not read the report itself. --HappyInGeneral 17:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I said above, it's better if we left the discussion OFF this Wikipedia page. After all, it is not a FG discussion forum here, and other Wikipedia users have been complaining. I will ICQ you soon though - a live discussion with you should be interesting. Jsw663 11:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So basically the answer to my repeated question for responding inside your post because your post is too long is basically no. I guess you actually prefer to have one negative review about the Kilgour & Matas report and have it the only one! Anyway I did give you my contact details, but still your post requires answer, only now it will mean a lot more text to this page. Do you remember Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Falun_Gong that grow pretty huge after we finished presenting our reasons. Even though I think the situation it’s pretty short and clear. The CCP does persecute a group of people, based on their belief in Truthfulness Compassion Forbearance, and there are enough indirect evidences in the Kilgour & Matas report and other sources that there is actually a genocide going on behind the closed doors. --HappyInGeneral 13:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
HiG, you know the reasons why I stopped our discussion on the mediation page. 1. Mediator abandoned it, 2. Nobody else was reading it, 3. Far too long, 4. Purely FG discussion, not about Wiki editing. It would be unfortunate if this page was also filled with FG discussion, which it is not. But FGers have already time and time again posted long posts advertising FG sites (eg Asdfg) and it is about time the other side gets aired as well. This, however, should not continue into a vicious cycle. So in the interests of other readers and Wikipedia, I suggest we keep our purely FG discussion on IM rather than on Wiki. Am I being unreasonable trying to adhere to Wiki policies, or accepting Fire Star's criticism? PS Although both sides' POV is noted, passing it off as facts (especially when they're not proven and derived purely from suspicions and inferences) is dangerous. Jsw663 14:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
As I have stated many times on the mediation page, I'm answering the attacks, so then who is keeping on the debate? I actually agree that we should keep the talks not relevant to the editing process short or inexistent. However how can I do that while there are lies presented as facts? Let me quote you: “08:28, 3 January 2007 Jsw663 (Talk | contribs) (Rv vandalism by Dilip. If you want to challenge this, do so on the Falun Gong discussion page where I tore into the so-called neutral Kilgour-Matas report.)” so then since you state as fact that you torn down the Kilgour-Matas report, why is it that you: 1. don’t agree that I answer in the middle of it, since otherwise this page would get too long; 2. when I’m saying that if you don’t agree for me to answer in the middle of it I would do it anyway on the page, you try to sway me away by saying that this is a Falun Gong discussion not relevant to the editing. Quite interesting isn’t it? --HappyInGeneral 15:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
If you've read what is now the archives as well as the above, it is pro-FG people who have constantly used the no-FG-discussion in order to ensure that anti-FG people cannot respond to their vitriolic attacks on the CCP. If you insist on responding to my response to the KM report, you can do so if you wish, but if it is going to be similar to Asdfg's "I can't really add anything more than the report has already said" then I'd urge you to have some refrain. Must you always have the final word to feel justified? As I said before, pro-FG people have pasted their pro-FG sources time and time again, yet when anybody responds to these by questioning their neutrality you insist on having the final word. If only you could apply the same logic to your FG attacks on anything said by the CCP, or other non-CCP FG skeptics. And please, in the future, stick to debating about Wikipedian content, in this case, the FG entry. A little FG discussion here and there may be inevitable, but engaging in wholesale wrangling on Wikipedia is clearly not the way forward. But whether this will succeed will heavily depend on whether you can for once accept that you cannot always have the final word on every little point. Jsw663 20:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

My point in another discussion above was that we should go by what the experts say (rather than simply what the CCP hasn't denied). The experts are of course Human Rights organizations and reputable independent investigators. If these bodies are using the term "persection", then why shouldn't we?

I want to add that it's provocative pov statements like Tomanda's concluding sentence that get our conversations off track. Clearly there are people here, such as myself, who very strongly disagree with what you wrote and have to exercise self-restraint to not start arguing with you about it. Your statement serves no use aside from inciting an argument. I hope that you will be more mindful of this in the future, Tomanda. Mcconn 16:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It is widely known that there is a large scale persecution going on in China today and independent witnesses have stepped forward and testified that there are 36 concentrations camps in China right now detaining Falun Dafa practitioners. Omido 22:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

My friend's uncle's cousin's dog's friend's mistress's father's teacher's insurance salesman says that there are 485 death camps in China right now detaining Church of the UFO practitioners! --Sumple (Talk) 04:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Wake up?

Well I've read through a lot of the discussion above. I think this article is hopeless, unless we set some concrete deadlines, or all meet in person to discuss how to word everything. The hell with the mediation committee, what are they gonna know about all the ins and outs of Falun Gong and its socio-political background? One of the admins should step up and dictate some kind of procedure.

My e-mail is hongshi_fang@hotmail.com, if you'd like in-depth discussion feel free to e-mail or IM on MSN Messenger. I'd actually prefer one with jsw. These talk pages hardly promote any new understanding, it's basically a prove-disprove cycle. We need to know when to stop. Colipon+(T) 04:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Much discussion, little basic editing?

Pages of discussion about the in's and out's of Falun Gong, but no one has bothered to correct a simple typo?

"However after teh onset of the persecution"

Agreed that and things like that should be fixed. On the other hand that is a straight forward fix, nobody would object/debate about it. --HappyInGeneral 12:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

sorry, i reposted this in under appropriate subject above.

--Crestodina 07:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Non -neutral phase in origin paragraph.

I am neither a practitioner nor a critic of fallun gong, and as a neutral curious reader, I find that the sentence "Falun Gong quickly grew in popularity in China because many people found what they had been searching for all their life, and starting in 1996 Li has introduced the practice to other countries" is not only non-neutral, but is an awkward stylistic mess. The phrase "...because many people found what they had been searching for all their life,..." is unnecessary and should be deleted.--Crestodina 01:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Crestodina, as you may have seen, the wikipedia article is a mess: Today you see something, then a few minutes later someone changes it, then someone else comes and reverts it, and then someone changes something else and adds some other things, then it gets reverted again and so on. I dont agree with making edits or changes without consulting with the other party. As of right now the criticism summary in the wikipedia main page is only one sentence long, thats not good. Nevertheless, it used to be like half a page, which is also not appropriate at all. I think we shouldnt go to any extremes wether reporting pro or anti POV's. I agree that the sentence you just pointed out shouldnt be included, but it is not only that, there are many other aspects of the article that need reviewing. For example, the criticism page has no counter criticism included, so it only reports criticism and not other important information coming from reliable and published sources that can counter that criticism, thus, the reader is forced to view only one POV of the matter without having the chance to see what Falun Gong has to say about it. We are not here to advertise Falun Gong, but we are not here to attack it either, if you let people see only one side of the coin, i dont think that's neutral reporting of facts. I think we should take things step by step and follow the to do list. Apparently almost everyone is taking a break from editing, but if you are available and have some time to do some editing then we can start working on it. You are a neutral editor and thats pretty important, your opinion would be valuable for us when coming up with paragraphs or wordings for the article. If you could, please stay around and lets do some work together. Let me know and ill make a new section for editing proposals of the article according to the to do list so we can discuss it and try to see what everyone else thinks about it and see if we can reach consensus.--Andres18 03:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing the above, Crestodina. In fact, the majority of the article is clearly not neutral, nor is it proportionally represented, etc. However, the current sysop who locked the article on its biased version, Centrx, has allowed the last user Asdfg to go on a 'break', taking advantage of inaction to his benefit. But then both sides' edit warring before has meant that unfortunate consequences have had to be taken. It was a good move at first, but I see no reason for continuing this indefinitely or for much longer. Jsw663 14:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
And for that we should have a clear section of change proposals on which we agree upon, right? --HappyInGeneral 15:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Which both sides engaged in for the past two months, but was undone by a bunch of unhelpful edit wars, section blankers, and now a complete freeze on the main FG entry. If you remember, you also contributed to such a discussion, but this seems to have been abandoned. PS Tomananda, please do NOT edit my posts, thanks. Jsw663 20:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Could someone change and bad ISBN for me

Change the citation:

*Ian Adams, Riley Adams and Rocco Galati, ''Power of the Wheel: The Falun Gong Revolution'' (Toronto: Stoddart Publishing, 2000) hard cover ISBN 0-7737-33270-5 {{Please check ISBN|0-7737-33270-5 (too long)}}

to:

*Ian Adams, Riley Adams and Rocco Galati, ''Power of the Wheel: The Falun Gong Revolution'' (Toronto: Stoddart Publishing, 2000) hard cover ISBN 0-7737-3270-5

Thanks --Droll 08:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Rich Farmbrough, 17:42 10 January 2007 (GMT).

Any mediators available?

Coliphon couldn't be more right. He said we need to know when to stop and that these talk pages are "basically a prove-disprove cycle." We had all requested a mediator, but nothing really came of it. I'm beginning to wonder if any administrators, mediators or arbitrators are willing at this point to step in and really enforce Wikipedia standards. We saw Omido repeatedly blanking large sections of the main page and some daughter pages only because they had critical content. He was warned by Firestar, but nothing happened. Asdfg came along behind him and did the same wholesale blanking. Then an administrator came along and froze everything. Supposedly this page is being monitored by a whole bunch of interested parties with expertise in China, religion and the like. Yet more importantly, there are many Falun Gong practitioner/editors whose very salvation depends on their ability to present a positive view of Master Li's teachings to the public. [13] Wikipedia is not unique in being used in this fashion...sometimes theatre is also used. For a recent example, I suggest we check out this interesting article about a falsely promoted New Tang Dynasty show in San Francisco at: [14] Please be sure to read the comments. --Tomananda 09:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC) 09:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC) 09:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Normally I would give you a lengthy response on this, like what is the problem on having interested people on this topic, and so on ... , but for the moment I have only one question: how is your statement above help the editing, since you are basically just attacking practitioners, even though you probably agree with the fact that we indeed cultivate Truthfulness Compassion Forbearance? I think the best thing right now it would be to concentrate on a list of change proposals that we can discuss and agree upon. --HappyInGeneral 15:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that response, HiG. Now turn your statement around by replacing FG practitioners with anti-FG persons, and vice versa. Can you also adhere to your statement then? In your insistence in responding to my response to the KM report, I should quote you: "how is your statement above help the editing, since you are basically just attacking [FG skeptics]"?? Jsw663 20:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:) I hope that my statement above helps the editing process by point out the fact that we should concentrate on things that help the editing process :) --HappyInGeneral 18:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You never responded to my question. But then there wouldn't be a need to if the answer was obvious. Jsw663 12:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, then let me answer very clearly here as well. You used your OR, “analysis” on the Organ Harvest Investigation report, by Kilgrou & Matas to say the following: “08:28, 3 January 2007 Jsw663 (Talk | contribs) (Rv vandalism by Dilip. If you want to challenge this, do so on the Falun Gong discussion page where I tore into the so-called neutral Kilgour-Matas report.)” So my answer is actually because of your request. :) Of course after that you did state that your analysis is OR and it will not be used. So for the moment I’m in stand by on that. --HappyInGeneral 14:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:No Original Research applies to the main Wikipedia entry, not discussion. Otherwise, we will have to edit both sides' arguments heavily in the discussion as over half of it counts as 'original research'. And just because there is a distinct lack of support for the pro-CCP side and sources does not mean there aren't such reports. Should I constantly quote them as well, making long and unnecessary points about how FG does this and that? It would be unhelpful to continue such a FG discussion. Once again, your lack of will to contribute towards a more neutral FG entry but unlimited willingness to engage users in a purely FG good/bad discussion is worrying. Wikipedia isn't established for that. Jsw663 15:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

How can you possibly say you cultivate "truthfullness" when so much of what you say is a lie? Here are a few examples:

  • The claim that 6,000 FG practitioners were victims of live organ harvesting in Sujiatun, which was debunked by the US State Department and human rights activist Harry Woo.
  • Your promotion of FG media events under the guise of ancient Chinese culture. More than 30 people walked out of your New Tang Dynasty show in SF recently when they discovered that it was just a piece of Falun Gong propaganda. [15]
  • Omido's blatant lie, right here on Wikipedia, trying to post a one sentence summary of the Criticism page which claimed that Criticism of Falun Gong did not start until 1999 and was in response to the ban.

I could give many more examples, including more from Wikipedia itself. I do not believe anything a Falun Gong practitioner says. As long as you obey Li Hongzhi's demand that you work to destroy the CCP and defend his reputation and that of the Dafa, you will continue to fall into the trap of brainwashed cult victim. I have sympathy for all Falun Gong practitioners, but believe Li Hongzhi should be called to account for the harm he has done, and the lies he has fostered through his loyal disciples. --Tomananda 19:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys, whats going on here? lets just focus on editing the article, i dont know if youve already realized that this discussions are a waste of time. I guess right now its time to stop them and we all know it. I think it would be better if we thought like this from now on: if we dont have anything to say that will contribute to the editing of the article, then lets not say it, this way we will save more time for editing purposes whenever it is needed instead of spending it here in vain arguing among each other. Tomananda, please take it easy i understand you have your views, but we also have our own views and opinions about this topic, if we keep arguing about who is right or wrong, we'll never finish the discussion and we will never finish the article either. Sometimes people make some statements that may seem provocative or may be considered outrageous by the other party, if we focus on those details, then we will keep deviating from the edit process everytime we try to get back on track. I'll make a new section again with all the material we were working on so that we can restart editing, lets all do our best not to deviate from the task at hand.--Andres18 21:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I am taking it easy, Andres. In case you haven't noticed, I am pointing out what I consider to be misrepresentations done by Falun Gong practitioers. A proper response would be: ah, maybe we have made some mistakes in what we have said. But instead, you respond by saying "take it easy." I am still concerned about Omido's editing behavior and the fact that even though Fire Star repeatedly called him on his POV warrioring, he has suffered no consequences. Frankly, what is the point of producing edits if Omido can simply come along and blank them all out because of their critical nature. Why should we bother? And in case you haven't sensed it, I am especially outraged by Omido's attempt to lie about the documentable history of Falun Gong criticism in China. That criticism began long before the ban. No one questions that fact. Yet Omido changed that fact to a statement that criticism did not begin in China until 1999 and was only in response to the ban. Come on, Andres. You are an intelligent person. Can't you see how that was a blatant attempt to whitewash the Falun Gong? And yet this kind of duplicitous behavior has been a constant pattern in the pro-Falun Gong edits. You might think that I am biased because of the Li Hongzhi quotes I select for reporting in Wikipedia, but at least I base all my edits on notable sources. Frankly, I don't see how we can continure editing without the intervention of a mediator who can enforce basic Wikipedia standards, and that includes NPOV, no original reasearch, notablility and the sourcing of our material. My edits have lived up to these standards consistently, whereas those of editors such as Omido have not. I am tired of this game and again ask that a mediator intervene. --Tomananda 22:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well let's see how long we've been doing this useless discussion. I think about a year now since the article has been protected, and a few months at least since it's been filed for mediation. Recently I have had the chance to begin some constructive dialogue with some of these pro-FLG editors on Wikipedia over IM or e-mail. But even in a neutral, sensible, relaxed and objective tone everything I say that questions the legitimacy of FLG is either criticized, dismissed as lies, or ignored. Neither my life-long experiences in China nor my years of study in Sinology and Chinese cultural, political and religious history seems to lend any ground to any of my theories. Then I for one will say that after a lot of this correspondence I feel like I am quite offended by a certain group's stubbornness, I want to give up as a whole.

If the world wants to believe in this stuff FLG and the Epoch Times tries to spread, then the hell with the truth. People are probably better off believing Falun Gong is a legitimate organization promoting benevolent cultivation anyway. People are better off knowing that Li Hongzhi has nothing to do with politics. Let Wikipedia be another FLG mouthpiece. I'll contact an Epoch Times editor and ask him to monitor this page. In fact, remove the protection and just let all the pro-FLG people edit. Let them try to prove the truth about Falun Gong through scientific means, or prove the truth about CCP persecution through the ill-prepared Kilgour Matas Report. Because after all, Tomanada, JSW, and all of those who have attempted to present a neutral point of view on this article, I admire your persistence in trying to reason everything out logically and using verifiable sources. But if we belong to the group that believes FLG is a doubtful organization, then let us just doubt this in our own mind. Because frankly, with all the discussion that has ensued on the issue here, nothing productive has come out, and we have tried our hardest. Maybe we should all stop.

If they want to criticize CCP, denounce them as an evil organization that has not a single good intention like the Epoch Times has done in the Nine Commentaries, then let them. The fight between the leadership of the CCP and the leadership of FLG, is, as I see it, a battle between two liars. In a decade or two we'll just have to see who has lied better. Meanwhile the group of us trying to provide NPOV should all shove our theories and evidence up our ass and just let it float in our heads and our mind only. Should we really go through all this just to get shunned, dismissed or ignored? I don't think it's worth it.

Colipon+(T) 00:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Tomananda, if there are sources that report that Falun Gong started to be criticized before 1999 and they are published and reliable, i see no problem with mentioning it on the article. I think a proper way to mention it would be in the same paragraph we mention the awards given to Falun Gong by the Chinese Government and Chinese community. Also, i think we should give Omido one more chance, because we have all made mistakes before and if he or anyone else who has also made these mistakes agrees not to blank the pages or modify the wikipedia article's content unappropriately anymore then i see no problem with them also contributing to the article, and punishing them for past deeds wouldnt be useful. Lets just do a fresh start yes? we forget each others faults and start over. Still, something pretty clear is that we cannot keep editing without consulting, the more we follow that rule, the more we will advance, and every take we step will be stable. The other rule is to not deviate too much from the task at hand, if we do those two things, im sure we will be able to advance pretty well dont you think so?

Colipon, id have to tell you to please do not give up, i know you may have had discussions with other practitioners about controversial issues regarding Falun Gong, but i believe they have their point of view and im sure that even though they do not agree to your view, they do respect your position. If you believe that Falun Gong is doubtful, i invite you to investigate all you want about it, here in the Wikipedia editing process no one will dismiss or ignore your contributions to the article. Some practitioners have also felt it is useless to continue because they also feel their views are ignored or dismissed, but i think that everything that has happened so far has been a process of us getting to understand each other so that we can start working together as a team. Ive been here for a while and havent seen you before so why dont you stay around? I guarantee you wont be wasting your time, just come back from time to time to see how things are going and please give us your opinions whenever you feel it is appropriate, every contribution is useful for us, the more people participate in this process, the better the article will look in the end.--Andres18 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Andres, may I ask why criticism of FG must be placed after the awards it gained? I'm just curious. As for Omido, I already placed the mediation case on hold, in the hope that Omido will be a constructive editor in the future. I would thus urge Tomananda to exercise a little more restraint, even if others won't treat him likewise. After all, part of negotiations is about moving towards a solution, and in order to achieve that we must get rid of the obstacles in our way first. As long as Omido proves himself in the future not to be an obstacle any longer, I'm more than happy to have him contribute to our discussions as well as (constructive) editing. Jsw663 11:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

So can we have a list of things that should changed on these pages? I think that would be the next logical&productive step forward. Also I think it's good that the page is protected, because this actually makes us discuss and agree upon these changes :) --HappyInGeneral 18:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I didnt mean the whole criticism, Tomananda mentioned that there was some criticism on Falun Gong before 1999, then before 1999 Falun Gong was also given awards and recognitions. So it seems neutral to me that this kind of criticism be reported along with the awards and positive recognitions. I thank you for puting on hold the mediation case against Omido, im sure these inconvenients will not happen anymore. Ill try to make a new section with what we had so far so that we can keep editing. By the way HiG, there is a To Do list that one of the editors proposed some time ago, it seems pretty reasonable, what do you think?.--Andres18 21:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

If we do so, we will have to do a history/chronological entry for FG, e.g. "Falun Gong 19?? - 1999" and then "Falun Gong 1999-200?", etc. That would be a dramatically new layout, but it could be positive - it would just mean a LOT of work. Jsw663 12:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The Lead Section

Hello everyone, im posting here what we had achieved so far for discussion. Please lets keep in our mind two things, No editing without consensus and only posting contributions to the editing of the article, lets try not to deviate from the process any longer. Also, please state your opinions or proposals in the sections created for each paragraph so that we can keep order. And keep in mind one more thing, please, dont make a lengthy response unless you think it is vital for the editing process. A concise and precise post with sources backing up what you say is worth much more than a very long post in which the main idea could seem lost among so many words.--Andres18 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please make your contribution for the 3rd paragraph in this section.--Andres18 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a mere suggestion from the side in an attempt to bring a bit of comprise in what could be very little possibility for it left. Could we maybe just link up each of these proposals on separate pages for better navigation? Colipon+(T) 06:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah sure! you can do that if it makes you feel more comfortable for navigating.--Andres18 16:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Current discussion are now moved to /Introduction

Task Panel Navigation

The following are proposals drawn up for each of the sections on the Falun Gong page for easier navigation and better organization.

All parties willing to compromise and not simply argue are invited to contribute. Colipon+(T) 22:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Quick fix in citation section needed

Hello, was just visiting the site. All citations after 12 are appearing as coded text on the site proper. Perhaps one of you can fix this, it's probably a matter of minutes or seconds. 69.61.67.34 03:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC) Anonymous

Hi there! Thanks a lot, this is very important, I'll look into it.--Andres18 05:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Persecution videos

Please take a look at these: [16] [17] [18] [19] I also want to propose to include these links into the Falun Gong/persecution article. Sorry for spoiling your appetite...

I think this is good material that maybe we could use somewhere as evidence that Falun Gong practitioners have of the persecution. I havent figured out any ideas on where or how to use it though... any suggestions?--Andres18 04:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Although these are disturbing videos, they do not prove that Beijing has a policy of torture and they can hardly be considered objective. What's more, they are stored on a private pro-Falun Gong website and Omido and Dilip have deleted other private websites from this article. We must be consistent with what we allow. If these unverified links are to be added to this article, we must allow links to other websites such as Samuel's.
As to the content, I only watched the last one which is in English. What non-Falun Gong practitioners may not realize is that there is a long established practice for detained practitioners in China to go on hunger strikes. In fact, one can find testitomy on the FG sites encouraging this practice. The guards routinely respond to these hunger strikes by doing "forced feeding." Samuel knows more about this than I do, but isn't one fairly obvious conclusion that this poor man has succeeded in his hunger strike despite the forced feeding? It's contradictory to accuse the prison guards of starving a 70 year old man to death, while at the same time accusing the same guards of engaging in "forced feeding." Nevertheless, this man was clearly neglected by his keepers. I have seen somewhat similar videos of elderly residents of nursing homes in the US who are emaciated and suffering from extremely bad bed sores. Bed sores are the result of lying immobile in a bed for long periods of time. If one were to post a video of an elderly American women who has been neglected in this fashion, would that consitute evidence that the US goverment has a policy of elder abuse?
As I've said previously, the central government in Beijing and the Chinese people in general are aware of bad practices done by local police officials. There is a government campaign to clean up local police corruption. If Li Hongzhi were seriously concerned about the welfare of detained Falung Gong practitioners in China, it seems to me he would: 1) Tell them not to go on hunger strikes and 2) Depmand that Beijing adress these instances, rather than demand that preach the downfall of Beijing.
Li Hongzhi has clearly chosen to adopt a militant stance against the Chinese Communist Party. As Li himself says, this is a monumental battle between "good" and "evil"...rhetoric similar to our own President Bush. There are, indeed, consequences to our actions. In the case of Li Hongzhi's war on the CCP, because he leaves no room for cooperation or dialogue with the "wicked party," the Beijing authorities have little choice than to consider Li public enenmy number one.
Here in the US, many wise people are outraged at the stubborness of the Bush regime in not talking with the leaders of Iran and Syria. Bush has cast the so-called war on terror in absolutist moral terms...it's "us" versus the axis of evil. Sounds like Li, doesn't it? --Tomananda 21:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Even though your input is important in this editing process, it is also important to follow the rules. We are all trying to assume a neutral position, you are very welcome to express your point of view on this matter, but sarcasm, irony, etc. Isnt necessary and does not contribute to the editing process. Since you have stressed lately that we should enforce the rules, i believe they apply to all of us. If you would like to contribute to editing visit the link Colipon posted above on this talk page, its named /introduction.--Andres18 03:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't intend any sarcasm in this post and am surprised you read it that way. And the post also includes some specific points about our editing standards...such as what I say about what links we will allow in. Specifically, I challenge the inclusion of all these proposed links for the reasons cited. Before dismissing what I say, why not respond to that? --Tomananda 05:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Right, so if so you wish let me address your issues:
  • About: “they do not prove that Beijing has a policy of torture and they can hardly be considered objective”. Then let me ask you what is a proof then? Basically you are saying that even if you would see a video about torture in the prison, that is not proof either just because Hu Jintao is not present in the video? Actually these videos prove that there is severe mistreatment, and that there is torture. And since these footages are obtained sparsely and officials actually hunt down those who make these video’s we can assume that it is widespread or at least a it gives a very good reason for an independent investigation to take place. Which again is not allowed. Anyway here are 3 third party video’s which are not about Falun Gong but which show the same pattern. [20], [21], [22]
  • About: “As to the content, I only watched the last one which is in English.” You should really watch the first two first which are in English as well: [23], [24] here torture is clear. Also you’re reasoning of: “I have seen somewhat similar videos of elderly residents of nursing homes in the US who are emaciated and suffering from extremely bad bed sores. Bed sores are the result of lying immobile in a bed for long periods of time.” Right but as you could see that elderly was able to walk and previously he was detained, so in the context of discussing about the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners in China, this video is relevant here and we can say that no mercy is given to them. And this is actually one more reason on keeping the word Persecution, or if you wish we might change it to what I think is more correct Genocide, considering the unexplained more then 40 thousands organ transplants.
  • About: “There is a government campaign to clean up local police corruption.” Now is it there, then why are these practices done over a long period of time and why are human rights defenders arrested, like Gao Zhisheng. Make no mistake, the officials will tell you any lies and deception as long as you will have the illusion that there is progress happening.
  • About: “In the case of Li Hongzhi's war on the CCP.” I dare you the following, make the CCP release all Falun Gong practitioners, lift the ban on the practice, stop the lies in the propaganda against the practice and then just see which practitioner would continue to Appeal for Justice for Falun Gong. Actually all we want is the freedom to practice. For example if I would be in China and I would be arrested, tortured, potentially my organs given for sale for doing the same legal and moral things as I’m doing now in my country, well to tell you the truth I would feel that this is way to wrong and I would be appealing for justice.
  • About “Here in the US” ... really not relevant here, I’m not saying that everything the US does is perfect, we are talking here about Falun Gong and the persecution initiated by the CCP against it. Actually if you ask me morality in general is at a big downslide see some movies from this guy [25] and the situation is getting really serious, endangering our even near future, basically because people forgot about morality, and so we have a state that some called the “End of Dharma”.
--HappyInGeneral 15:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey guys why are we discussing about FG again!? Although HiG's points are easily refutable as they're merely repeating the same pro-FG points ad nauseum, so I suggest both sides stop. I thought Andres was working to such a pro-active solution, but posting the above (in this section) does little but provoke more FG discussion. This action is disappointing in itself. After all, no Wiki entry can include every source for both sides and overwhelming people with sources does not help make the entry / your case more 'credible' if they all (intend to) make a similar point. Unless you want others to post tons of anti-FG sites thereby initiating another edit war, let's be more mature and stop it right here. After all, if people won't change their mind about something even when their arguments have been rebutted, it's unlikely they'll change their mind in the future either. All parties should be more pragmatic and open to negotiation; stick to Wiki content-editing only. Jsw663 16:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Well Tomananda, you know written posts tend to give the wrong impression sometimes so im sorry and i apologize for my previous reply. I think we should focus on the Introduction part of the article though, you know, step by step and so on. Have you visited it yet? we are now talking about the lead section and everything seems to go very well. I'd like to know your opinion on the issues we have been discussing now.--Andres18 02:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Restoring the Criticism and controversies summaries

Since the main page has been unblocked, I've taken the modest step of restoring the original summaries for Criticism and Controversies. I have not deleleted anything. You will recall that in our discussions above, there was some agreement that Omido and then Asdfg had gone too far in blanking this material, therefore I have restored it. We can talk about different ways of presenting these summaries, but I think we can all agree that the blanked version...which only preserved one line of summary and deleted all the links...was a far cry from balanced. --Tomananda 07:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Quick opinion

Given the extremely lengthy discussions which occur on this page and extensive argument, I'm not surprised outside intervention & mediation has failed. I'm not intending to get involved in this but having briefly read the the discussion, I have to agree that 'persecuted' should not be used. Persecuted is an emotionally charged phrase. There is a vast amount of disagreement about whether the treatment of Falun Gong and it's supporters in China amounts to persecution. As such, using it as a fact (including of a title) is not NPOV and I would also consider it a word to avoid in this case. Far, far better to use more neutral and less emotionally described words and to mention the allegations etc. This may include claims the treatment amounts to a persecution or genocide if such claims are from a realiable source. Obviously, these claims should only be presented as claims and other POVs should be presented. Nil Einne 12:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I can claim that what happened to the Jews in WWII wasn't a genocide, and for whatever reasons there are some who do, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be reported as such or that the word "genocide" should be given less weight. Why? Because the claim of "genocide" is supported by facts and experts. Similarly, when facts and experts suggest that Falun Gong practitioners are facing persecution in China, we shouldn't play that down just because some people here don't like that word. Mcconn 15:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Nil is correct. The use of words like "persecution" or "genocide" are way too POV for Wikipedia to report as fact. The Falun Gong uses these terms to attack the Chinese Communist Party, but even when it's own supporters, like human rights activist Harry Wu say that the FG is "straying too far from the truth." they ignore that criticism. The bottom line is that Wikipedia itself cannot report these things as established fact, because they are not. --Tomananda 19:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Tomananada, there is a lengthy discussion above where a convincing case is made for the use of the word "persecution". If you want to raise issue with any of my points, you can do that and we can discuss them, but your words here don't have any weight. I stated above why I don't consider "persecution" a loaded or "emotionally charged" word. And if that's really the only thing holding us back from using it, then I'd say you don't have much of a case. Mcconn 21:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Falun gong practitioners like to use words like genocide and persecution to solicite support from the public. But at the time they continue to lie to the public about their true beliefs. I don't think we should use these terms because they do not reflect the facts. It is offensive to me that Falun Gong practitioners use the genocide of Jews to make their case. The Falun Gong is a deceptive cult, but the Jews are victims of a racist and brutal regime. --Yueyuen 01:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you say. What I said to Tomananada applies to you too. The real discussion about this is up the page a little. If no one has anything concrete to say in response to my points, then I think we should start using the word. Mcconn 04:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

McConn, I have replied to your reply. Your insistence on promoting one side's agenda at the total expense of the other is worrying, and shows motivation of personal beliefs rather than neutral Wiki policy. Jsw663 13:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I could easily say the same for you. See my reply. Mcconn 20:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied. The CCP does NOT admit to suppression and thus I am not promoting a CCP agenda, so once again your fantastical allegations are groundless. I will, however, admit I am trying to promote a Wikipedian agenda. Jsw663 13:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/north_america.htm
  2. ^ http://falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_46.htm
  3. ^ http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_28.htm
  4. ^ http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/6/10/74333.html
  5. ^ http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/north_america.htm
  6. ^ http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/6/10/74333.html
  7. ^ http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/north_america.htm
  8. ^ http://falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_46.htm
  9. ^ http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_28.htm
  10. ^ http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/6/10/74333.html
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