Talk:Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, BWV 80/GA2
GA review
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Nominator: Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) 22:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: LastJabberwocky (talk · contribs) 12:35, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
Hi, I'm picking up your nomination! I see you really experienced in classic music. Hopefully, I can make useful suggestions. LastJabberwocky (talk) 12:35, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- I introduced minor changes to the article in question—if you disagree with them, we can discuss them here. LastJabberwocky (talk) 12:35, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review! You will have noticed that this is an "old" article by many editors. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, after finishing with the review I noticed the peer review for this article, which certainly humbled me by its size and effort. LastJabberwocky (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the nomination and thanks to you, Nikkimaria, for bearing with me. Promoting! LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- P.S. I did copyvio scan (32.0%). Picks up only composition and stanza names. I spot-checked bach "digital" sources and Alfred Dürr's book. LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the nomination and thanks to you, Nikkimaria, for bearing with me. Promoting! LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, after finishing with the review I noticed the peer review for this article, which certainly humbled me by its size and effort. LastJabberwocky (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review! You will have noticed that this is an "old" article by many editors. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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General things
[edit]If I understand correctly, late or later Leipzig version means "BWV 80.3" version; I think we should just call it "BWV 80.3" or "the final version of BWV 80" all the time for consistency and clarity. Like the "early Leipzig" version is called "80b". 
Done
- I leave the "Leipzigs" as there are and add the numbers (80.1, etc) in brackets. LastJabberwocky (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
this link no longer points to Craig Smith, redirecting to this. Done
- Added an archive link. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
I think it would be cleaner to hide the original title of the compositions into notes. Something like this: "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"{refn|Originally written in German with the title "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott".} 
Not done
- MOS:TITLE suggests giving the English title in parentheses following the original. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Well, it makes sense. The notes unnecessary complicated in a short sentence, but there are some lengthy ones, which feel clumsy and break the reading flow, and the notes are an easy solution. Another solution is to break down a sentence into two sentences. Before I give examples, I need to say that by "clumsy" I mean it takes a couple more seconds to understand a sentence than it should. I have never read anything about classical music, don't know some of the terms, but after spending some time with this article, every sentence makes sense; I don't even need to read some of the words to understand the meaning. I hope this helps a bit. Now examples, these two are the ones I worried about: "In BWV 80a, he used the second stanza of Luther's hymn "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" ("A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"), which is "Mit unser Macht ist nichts getan" (With our might nothing is done), for the closing chorale." and "The oboe and soprano perform the second stanza of the hymn, "Mit unser Macht ist nichts getan" (Nothing can be done through our strength), in an embellished version of the chorale melody, particularly in the oboe line."
Done
- Well, it makes sense. The notes unnecessary complicated in a short sentence, but there are some lengthy ones, which feel clumsy and break the reading flow, and the notes are an easy solution. Another solution is to break down a sentence into two sentences. Before I give examples, I need to say that by "clumsy" I mean it takes a couple more seconds to understand a sentence than it should. I have never read anything about classical music, don't know some of the terms, but after spending some time with this article, every sentence makes sense; I don't even need to read some of the words to understand the meaning. I hope this helps a bit. Now examples, these two are the ones I worried about: "In BWV 80a, he used the second stanza of Luther's hymn "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" ("A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"), which is "Mit unser Macht ist nichts getan" (With our might nothing is done), for the closing chorale." and "The oboe and soprano perform the second stanza of the hymn, "Mit unser Macht ist nichts getan" (Nothing can be done through our strength), in an embellished version of the chorale melody, particularly in the oboe line."
History and composition
[edit]- the "Rossijskaja nacional'naja biblioteka" has a page (National Library of Russia) and Paris bibliotheque has a page (Polish Library in Paris) Done
- Linked. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- I think we can streamline this sentence: However, these autograph fragments, which are also the only evidence of this version, ended up in three libraries in two continents... Explanation: It starts with a word "however" that, as I see it, relates to the "give a very incomplete picture of the version", but before they connect there are two conjunction that get in the way.
- Maybe something like this: However, these autograph fragments are the only remaining evidence of this version giving a very incomplete picture of it. They ended up in three libraries in two continents: the Bibliothèque Polonaise de Paris, the National Library of Russia in Saint Petersburg, and the Princeton University Library in New Jersey.
- Since the previous edit broke down the sentence in two, these ones now feel clunky: It is not certain when Bach wrote this version of the cantata. and Two fragments are on paper with.. I think they can be merged with "—" in-between "cantata" and "two fragments".
- Think a cleaner solution is simply to remove the "However" and leave the following sentences as they are. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- The removal of "however" certainly helped, but the sentence still feels too heavy. As far as I know, there are no grammar rule saying two predicates ("ended" and "give") cannot be separated by a lengthy subordinate clause, but it feels clunky. Potential solution, as I see it, is again to break down the sentence into two sentences. ALSO, it worth noting I'm a bit intimidated by your authority (saying half-jokingly! You seem to be a really experienced editor; whenever I visit a random page there is a good chance you edited there, so I'm not particularly trust my intuition there. LastJabberwocky (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Cheers ;-) I've rephrased this a bit, see what you think. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- The removal of "however" certainly helped, but the sentence still feels too heavy. As far as I know, there are no grammar rule saying two predicates ("ended" and "give") cannot be separated by a lengthy subordinate clause, but it feels clunky. Potential solution, as I see it, is again to break down the sentence into two sentences. ALSO, it worth noting I'm a bit intimidated by your authority (saying half-jokingly! You seem to be a really experienced editor; whenever I visit a random page there is a good chance you edited there, so I'm not particularly trust my intuition there. LastJabberwocky (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
Aria e chorale
[edit]- I think it would be better to substitute "the bass sings free poetry.." with "the bass performs the first stanza of the hymn, called "Everything that is born of God",{refn} sang in a more embellished version of the chorale melody, particularly in the oboe line.". Explanation: To connect it with the second stanza, clarifying the meaning of stanza for uninitiated people like me. Plus shortening the name. I couldn't integrate "free poetry", it's up to you to include it or leave it. Done
- Have linked stanza for those unfamiliar with the term, and rewritten the sentence in another way. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
- Not it's better at rolling-off-the-tongue task, but my one worry for clarity remains. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the first instance for the word "stanza" is the most important, clarifying that it is the first verse in the hymn (instead of just saying "The bass sings free poetry"). Also by using the word "stanza" over and over in similar contexts; the contexts themselves would explain the word and the reader wouldn't even need to bother with the "stanza" page.
- I've reordered the content to help improve flow. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- It reads nicely! I also added another mention of stanza :) I hope this whole review was reasonable on my part; other than the link problem and wiki-links, the tweaks are subjective/opinionated/style-dependant, so I got worried. LastJabberwocky (talk) 09:30, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- I've reordered the content to help improve flow. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- Not it's better at rolling-off-the-tongue task, but my one worry for clarity remains. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the first instance for the word "stanza" is the most important, clarifying that it is the first verse in the hymn (instead of just saying "The bass sings free poetry"). Also by using the word "stanza" over and over in similar contexts; the contexts themselves would explain the word and the reader wouldn't even need to bother with the "stanza" page.
- "Jones compared the "extremely florid" rendition of the tune, given to the soprano in the Leipzig version, to the similar approach..." — Can you clarify in the text which version is it (i.e., 80b or 80.3)? Done
- I am sorry to repeat that the numbering is confusing, first (historically) a b c, later 1 2 3 (but not corresponding, that would be too easy). Perhaps we should make a little table of correspondences, and stick in the prose to one system. For this aria, however, it doesn't matter, because if I understand it right, the change from the first Leipzig version to the second touched a chorale fantasia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- Weimar: 80a - 80.1
- 1st Leipzig: 80b - 80.2
- 2nd Leipzig and final: 80 - 80.3 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- I see, I'll changed it then to "both Leipzig versions (80.2 and 80.3)". LastJabberwocky (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
Manuscripts and publication
[edit]"published the score of the Leipzig version in 1987.." — Can you clarify in the text that it's 80.3 version (not to confuse between early Leipzig and late Leipzig versions). Done
- Per the above, I'd guess - without looking - that it's what became known simply as 80 (and was later renamed 80.3 for systematical reasons): the 2nd Leipzig version. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:38, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
- I'll add the number "(80.3)" in brackets after "the Leipzig version". LastJabberwocky (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.