Talk:Bertrand of Toulouse (son of Alfonso Jordan)

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Middle Ages: Crusades

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A fact from Bertrand of Toulouse (son of Alfonso Jordan) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 25 January 2025 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the capture of the crusader Bertrand of Toulouse by Muslims was blamed by an anonymous monk on the "treachery" of Queen Melisende and Countess Hodierna?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2025/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bertrand of Toulouse (son of Alfonso Jordan).

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 02:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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... that Christians were outraged when Count Raymond II of Tripoli helped Muslims capture his cousin Bertrand, who had tried to conquer Tripoli?

Source: Lewis 2017, p. 155

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Bridget Jones: Mad about the Boy (novel)
Comment: This article is tied to the article Hodierna of Jerusalem, which is also nominated for DYK. I have considered a double hook, but decided that the separate hooks are more interesting. I hope that the two hooks can be featured on the same day as a compromise solution.

Created by Borsoka (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 194 past nominations.

Surtsicna (talk) 12:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - I don't have the source, so I could AGF, but from the preview Google does provide, the outrage was about Raymond seeking the assistance of Muslims in capturing 'Urayama, not about him helping the Muslims. Also, I believe the source claims the outrage was about the capture of the fortress, not about the capture of Bertrand. Finally, isn't the end of the hook a supposition made by historians?
Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: This hangs on what an AGF source says. Either a clarification about it or a rewording of the hook to be more accurate will do. Muhandes (talk) 17:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All of history is historians' suppositions., Muhandes :) It is true that on page 155 the outrage is connected to the capture of the fortress. On page 157 the outrage is about Bertrand's capture, but it is Raymond's wife and sister-in-law/aunt who are accused of collaboration. Therefore I propose the following alternative hooks:

ALT1: ... that Christians were outraged when Count Raymond II of Tripoli helped Muslims seize a fortress from his cousin Bertrand?
ALT2: ... that the capture of the crusader Bertrand of Toulouse by Muslims was blamed by an anonymous monk on the "treachery" of Queen Melisende and Countess Hodierna?

See which you like best. ALT2 might be my favorite. Surtsicna (talk) 08:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

on either ALT1 or ALT2, with preference to ALT2. Muhandes (talk) 09:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This year.

Hello Borsoka, reference your reversion, to my way of thinking and I'm sure many others, "This year" means the present year because it is a new sentence, as in "this year I'm going on a diet." When I have to stop and re-read a sentence again, it's because I'm not sure of the meaning, the phraseology is not what it should be. "he lived in captivity until 1159, when he was set free" makes more sense. Feel free to change it back. Avi8tor (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]