Talk:Ben Williams (American football, born 1970)

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	This article was accepted on 18 August 2012 by reviewer SarahStierch (talk · contribs).

The Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see WP:COIRESPONSE.

Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk · contribs) has been paid by Ben Williams. Their editing has included contributions to this article.

Article expansion proposal

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The reviewer would like to request the editor with a COI attempt to discuss with editors engaged in the subject-area first.

Hey all, I have developed a total rework of this page, which is currently in pretty dire shape. Full disclosure: Ben Williams paid me to look at this page and develop this proposal on how to improve it.

You can find the complete rework here. Essentially, I've expanded this article from a stub into a 900+ word article that covers his college and professional careers, as well as his life after retirement. These are backed by reliable sources - generally newspapers and magazines.

If the edit is approved, I will also have a few images I can suggest adding to the page. Ben Williams has the rights to them, and is fine with them being used under a Creative Commons license. Given the current length of the page, I'll wait until after the proposal is reviewed to suggest adding them - the expanded page may have room for 2-3 images overall.

Please feel free to give feedback towards these - I'm open to any and all suggestions to improve the proposal! Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 18:01, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Toa Nidhiki05 (Work)

Denied

I'm sorry but a full rewrite would require a talk page consensus, this definitely would be a substantial edit. Template:RE/I WP:CAUTIOUS

RCSCott91 (talk) 08:28, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

...that's why I proposed it here, RCSCott91 - to get eyes on it and discuss the proposal, which is contained at the separate sandbox page I linked above (linking it again here). Your request here seems to me to be circular - you've closed the request because it needs consensus, but the request is how eyes are brought here to get consensus. I'm not exactly sure what you're wanting here, basically, since you didn't actually review the proposal - could you elaborate? Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 12:57, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see the issue, I failed to fully communicate. The proper venue for that is RFC.WP:RFCOPEN

Template {{rfc|bio}} should be place, it will call people to comment and discuss.

I apologize about the confusion I've caused. If you would like I can place the template with its relevant question.

RCSCott91 (talk) 13:39, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to place one, go ahead, but I've never seen a request for comment be argued as necessary for an edit request. It's just unusual, that's all, but I don't have an issue with starting one whatsoever - the football WikiProjects have a lot of committed editors that have very good insights. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For submitters information bullet 10
First sentence of For reviewers in Request for edit template

WP:CAUTIOUS

Above are 3 places it says it. 2 are in the template itself and the 3rd is Wikipedia policy. Rewriting the entire article would be considered substantial.

You could message one of those editors on their talk page. I haven't gone through everything on the draft to make sure it complies with WP:MOS but it looks nice.

RCSCott91 (talk) 14:50, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, those policies say to go to the talk page and ask other editors to review your proposed changes, which is exactly what I did. A larger page might have a larger discussion, but this is a stub that has been tagged as lacking sources for over 12 years now, so there's really not a lot of editors actively viewing the page here, unfortunately.

Directly messaging specific editors to review, as an editor with COI, wouldn't be a good idea, imo. That's why COI editors are required to disclose and to request review for edits and edit proposals/overhauls on talk pages. I could certainly reach out to editors broadly at the WikiProjects, and any RfC would also tag said WikiProjects.

Basically: if you want to have an RfC instead of just the edit review here, I don't have an issue with that. It's just a bit unusual in my experience, hence my initial confusion. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 15:25, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) I hate to say it but you are right.

1) Place the RFC

2) Invited some editors, preferably who are used to editing Bios of athletes. I will join as well.

3) Concurrently place a move request template.

4) Assuming consensus, the draft will be moved to overtake the main space article. At the very least everything was done according to policy and assuming that any Sysop or Mover who does due diligence will see all actions were done in WP:GOODFAITH.

I know it may not be the action you want but it's one I am willing to help and place time to support.

RCSCott91 (talk) 20:11, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do not get me wrong - I’m totally okay with this and I greatly appreciate your assistance here! If it’s okay with you, I do know a few people in the football space that I know may be good to look at this. I’m primarily responsible (on my main account) for the American football, NFL, NFL Europe, and Carolina Panthers pages, so I’ve engaged with a lot of editors there. We could also put notices in the relevant WikiProjects. I can get the RfC set up shortly! Toa Nidhiki05 20:25, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RCSCott91 just started the RfC below; figured I'd ping you in case you wanted to participate or tag some of the projects or anything. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 16:05, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on proposed changes

Obvious improvement, sufficient support ensuring unbiased. Edit made. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:19, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per the above thread - this is a request for comment on the proposed rework at this draft article page. As stated above and disclosed: I have a COI, as Ben Williams paid me to look at this page and to propose an expansion/rework. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 16:05, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's an big improvement from the current article. Do you have a copyright permissable picture for the infobox?

RCSCott91 (talk) 19:49, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have several, although I figured it may be best to upload them after the changes were made. I can post them in a few. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 21:03, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here are three options: File:Ben Williams headshot.jpg, File:Ben Williams - Gophers.jpg, and File:Ben Williams - Vikings.jpg. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 15:32, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would probably go with the first because Ben Williams has played for multiple teams and in more recent years his notoriety has been derived from more than simply being a gridiron football player (NFLPA Minnesota chapter, NFL compliance and regulations official, and his charity work). Please make sure picture follows copyright rules under Wikimedia/English wiki (violation is very serious).

RCSCott91 (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the headshot to the draft. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 16:04, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So far it looks really good. But these sources are behind a paywall.

1)"Williams emerges as CFL all-star"

4)"Henry commits to MSU; Gardner, Tatum shine"

6) "Leaders Dominate AP All-Big Ten Team"

7) "CFL - Pirate Talk"

9) "Journey continues for former Gopher"

10) "Big Ben ready to tick for Esks"

11) "Two Pirates are chosen as CFL All-Stars"

14) "Sportsline"

A paywall is not a barrier to use a source but it does affect accessibility. If you have an alternate, more accessible, source for these respective articles it would be appreciated but I understand there are limitations.WP:APPLYRS

RCSCott91 (talk) 20:04, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Given these are mostly pre or early-internet newspaper articles (most notable playing career was in the mid 90s), there isn't a better alternative; thankfully, The Wikipedia Library offers Newspaper dot com subscriptions for free to any editor (that's how I got them!), so this is quite possibly the most accessible type of paywalled source. If it would be helpful, I can try and drag in direct quotes from the source as part of the citations, but a lot of these deal with a lot more than just a sentence or two. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) support That's a valid answer to me. Can you tag some more people who can evaluate this page, in order to make this a more rounded RFC.

RCSCott91 (talk) 21:30, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I support this change as it is a significant improvement. Toa Nidhiki05, I hope your client understands that other people can still change it later, and that Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's the general understanding I require of anyone. You don't own a page, this is an encyclopedia, not an ad, and as a paid editor I'm extremely limited in what I can do. Usually consisting of just making proposals or suggestions. Toa Nidhiki05 (Work) (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know why an RFC is necessary, but support as a clear improvement. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Drastic improvement. Useight (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.