Talk:1924–25 Swedish football division 2

Football: Sweden / Season Low‑importance

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Sweden Low‑importance

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Not moved, 1 March 2025, to 1924–25 Division 2 (Swedish football), see discussion.
Moved, 26 March 2025, from 1924–25 Swedish football Division 2 to 1924–25 Swedish football division 2, see discussion.

Deletion?

Originally I wanted to fix this article but the only source it has is now a dead link. It's a very confusing page and has vitually no context to explain what it is talking about or how to interpret the data that is listed. Buddy23Lee (talk) 20:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"virtually no context" is not the same as "absolutely no context" so I had to decline the speedy nom. Consider WP:PROD, WP:AFD, or asking a WikiProject Sweden or WikiProject Foootball to help out. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

10-4 and understood. I didn't realize this was more then just a miscellaneous jumble of stats. I guess I'll get to categorizing them properly. :) Buddy23Lee (talk) 21:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 1 March 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. If necessary redirects should be created where appropriate. (non-admin closure) Sophisticatedevening ^(talk) 14:01, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

– Main articles moved to Division 2 (Swedish football) format a couple of years ago without follow up. Some Division 1 articles were renamed at one point, so including the different capitalisations above there are three formats for this set of articles. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 22:45, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning against per WP:NATURAL. I couldn't easily find a record of the justification for the renaming of Division 2 (Swedish football), but I question the idea of that being an improvement. However, I suspect the ones that capitalize "Football" should use lowercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning against, and if moved, use (Sweden) as disambiguator instead. There's no need to include "football" if it's a disambiguation. O.N.R. ^(talk) 19:53, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As with the main articles, we have, for instance in 1946–47, both 1946–47 Division 2 season (Swedish ice hockey) and 1946–47 French Division 2, but since the 1960s I cannot recall any problems with (Sweden) only. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 09:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as above. We need a proper WP:RM to establish the correct name of the parent articles, and then we can move all sub-articles using WP:CFDS. Giant Snowman 09:26, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Further answer below, but I note WP:CFDS is not the venue to move around articles. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, confusion from me! Giant Snowman 12:05, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NATURAL. However, these should be moved such the football and division are lowercase per WP:LOWERCASE at WP:AT and WP:NCCAPS that is invoked by LOWERCASE. Swedish Football is not a proper name of the controlling body but a descriptive name of football in Sweden. The fact that Swedish football is not consistently capped across these titles tells us that caps is not necessary per MOS:CAPS (invoked by NCCAPS). A quick perusal of google news (here) tells us that division X is not always capped in sources. Per NCCAPS: For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence. If it is not always capped in sources, it is not a proper name and we should not cap it here. My recollection is that division is not capitalised in Swedish - further evidence that this is not a proper noun but an example where English sometimes capitalises the term for emphasis, significance or importance but per MOS:SIGNIFCAPS but we don't do that here. Consequently, I would support alternative in the form Year Swedish football division 2. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:28, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is correct that Swedish newspapers almost never capitalise division (outlined here), regardless of when it is about a specific league named Division/division X or as similar to "highest division". About the capitalisation in English, the first 15 articles I get when performing the perusal search does not show division X – instead the articles show that "division/Division" is used both for the name of the league and that league's position in the league system – in this The Athletic article, Division X is capitalised while "division above" and "next division" are not. Further listing below (last three are Swedish newspaper translating own articles into English):

Articles

The Athletic "Angelholms finished second in Division 4 Skane Northwest (a regional league in Sweden’s sixth tier)"; "who play in Division 2 (two tiers higher than Angelholms)"
Birmingham Mail "leading the team to promotion to the Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Football.london "Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Ghanaian Times "Division 3 SödraSvealand (which is the fifth tier of Swedish football)" North"
The Guardian "he went into the First Division club [KB Karlskoga]" [refers to first division as level below premier division as KB Karlskoga and Sven-Göran Eriksson played the 1972 and 1973 Divison 2]
The Guardian "to win Division 2 Norrland"
The Independent “Swedish Third Division champions 1978”
Just-Football.com "but the Division 1 Norra, the third tier"
Kurdistan 24 "against Division 2 side FC Gute"
Liverpool Echo "Swedish Football Division 2"
The Mirror "the team to promotion to the Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Nordstjernan "to the Division 2 North title"; "a spot in Division 1 North"; "lead Östersund to the Division 2 North crown"; "set to play in Division 1 North"
The Point "Jammeh in Swedish Division 2"
ScandAsia "Åtvidabergs FF in division 2"
Sky Sports "He made his debut for Swedish Division 4 side Torsby IF"; "promotion to Sweden's Division 2"; "third-division side Karlstad" [used for third tier]
Sky Sports "From division three football in Sweden"; "player in the Swedish third division"
Sporting News "Division Three" [list item]

Dala-Demokraten "Dalkurd won division 6”; “they ended up in division 1”
Göteborgs-Posten "Players in the Division 6 of Sweden normally"
Sveriges Radio "division 1 soccer player Seif Kadim"

Kaffet i halsen (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman and Cinderella157: I have added Division 2 (Swedish football) and Division 3 (Swedish football) (what was Division 1 is now Ettan Fotboll) as people voiced concern over and are discussing those names. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:NATURAL, especially given that the proposed moves put part of the current titles into disambiguators. Steel1943 (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Create redirects by all means, but there is no problem with the current names. Andrewa (talk) 00:17, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comment: I notice that the RM proposal was modified while the discussion was ongoing. Two additional suggestions were added. This was after some people had already commented. My comment, in particular, was about the original proposal and does not fully apply to the modified proposal. The modification of the proposal was mentioned in the comment from Kaffet i halsen on 13:34, 8 March 2025 (UTC), but it might be easy to miss without a close reading. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 March 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a narrow source-based consensus in favor of the proposed moves. BD2412 T 00:32, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:NCCAPS division x is not a proper name. It is far from always capped in English language sources (see [1]) nor is it capped in Swedish. I think I got all of them. The last two are also a change to WP:NATURAL disambiguation. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:15, 26 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 12:49, 4 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 11:16, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that there are a couple of these that use "Football" (upper case). I believe these are in the process of being amended. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:24, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support consistent naming; oppose minuscule "d": The Google search includes cases where there are both "Division X" and "top division" in the article. It is therefore hard to draw the conclusion that "Division X" is "far from always capped in English language sources" without looking at the actual use in the articles. Per the list below, "Division X" is capitalised in far more than the majority of the cases, while the articles mentioned in the link above also refer to a division in general, e.g. "division above" and "next division" in this The Athletic article. An alternative would be to rename all YYYY Division X (Swedish football) (frequent use below) or YYYY Swedish football Division X (WP:NATURAL)

Listing below (last three are Swedish newspaper translating own articles into English):

Articles

The Athletic "Angelholms finished second in Division 4 Skane Northwest (a regional league in Sweden’s sixth tier)"; "who play in Division 2 (two tiers higher than Angelholms)"
Birmingham Mail "leading the team to promotion to the Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Football.london "Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Ghanaian Times "Division 3 SödraSvealand (which is the fifth tier of Swedish football)" North"
The Guardian "he went into the First Division club [KB Karlskoga]" [refers to first division as level below premier division as KB Karlskoga and Sven-Göran Eriksson played the 1972 and 1973 Divison 2]
The Guardian "to win Division 2 Norrland"
The Independent “Swedish Third Division champions 1978”
Just-Football.com "but the Division 1 Norra, the third tier"
Kurdistan 24 "against Division 2 side FC Gute"
Liverpool Echo "Swedish Football Division 2"
The Mirror "the team to promotion to the Swedish Football Division 2 in 1978"
Nordstjernan "to the Division 2 North title"; "a spot in Division 1 North"; "lead Östersund to the Division 2 North crown"; "set to play in Division 1 North"
The Point "Jammeh in Swedish Division 2"
ScandAsia "Åtvidabergs FF in division 2"
Sky Sports "He made his debut for Swedish Division 4 side Torsby IF"; "promotion to Sweden's Division 2"; "third-division side Karlstad" [used for third tier]
Sky Sports "From division three football in Sweden"; "player in the Swedish third division"
Sporting News "Division Three" [list item]
Brila "of Swedish Division 2 club side Vargarda IK"
FourFourTwo "In Division 4 Skane Northwest"

Dala-Demokraten "Dalkurd won division 6”; “they ended up in division 1”
Göteborgs-Posten "Players in the Division 6 of Sweden normally"
Sveriges Radio "division 1 soccer player Seif Kadim"

Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:19, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If your results are in the order of the search results, these do not correspond with the search results for the search I provided above (per here). I don't find this particularly surprising as I believe that results may vary from region to region. The first ten results for my search are: [2], [3], [4], [5],[6], [7], [8], [9], [10] and [11]. Of these, I found that three did not address the question at hand for similar reasons observed by you - eg they referred to the top division rather than a number or ordinal as either a word or numeral; usage was in a table or list not representative of prose; or, the usage was not referring to Swedish football (at all - ie there were some cases that referred to Sweden and other country's divisions but these were not excluded). Of the remainder, four used Division, while sources 1, 4 and 10 used division. I would note that that Swedish football is a WP:NDESC title rather than a formal name and that is a substantial reason why football is not capitalised in these article names. In total, my search returned 78 hits. Of these, I found two that were duplicated, one that I considered ambiguous and 38 that were not applicable - leaving a total of 37 in the sample pool. Of this, 22 (59%) used Division. As said in my nomination statement, this is far from always capped per WP:NCCAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:14, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 18:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as suggested and instead move to XXX Division 2 (Swedish football) or XXX Division 3 (Swedish football) as appropriate, to match the parent article name. Giant Snowman 18:33, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed. Sources seem to mostly use lowercase division. Dicklyon (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed. "Swedish football" is not the proper name of an organization or tournament – it is merely a descriptive term, so "football" should be lowercase, and "Swedish football Division 2" is very odd. Apparently, "division" is not consistently capitalized in sources. Wikipedia avoids unnecessary uppercase, and uppercase is certainly not necessary here. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:38, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Football/Season article task force, WikiProject Football/Sweden task force, WikiProject Sweden, and WikiProject Football have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 12:48, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per example links posted as well as norms in European soccer, where "Division X" is a proper term even if generic. Sounder Bruce 17:46, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If capitalizing "division" is necessary, they should be "Division X (Swedish football)". But it was asserted above that sources do not consistently use uppercase for "division". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:03, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support I going make this simple. It needs to be trimmed at bit after move.

DeckardKane23 (talk) 00:53, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.