Talk:Turkish offensive into northeastern Syria (2024–2025)

Requested move 25 February 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to SNA–Turkish campaign in Northern Syria (2024–present). I'm going to take Braganza's failure to respond as tacit acceptance of the compromise title. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:56, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

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Turkish offensive in northern Syria (2024–present) → Turkish–SDF clashes in northern Syria (2024–present) – It is not a real offensive, the Turkish ground forces are not involved so far Braganza (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2025 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 13:13, 4 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 08:35, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

I would support that. (I actually think we overuse the word "offensive" in our titles in general.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:19, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

"Offensive" doesn't require ground forces though. It is by definition a military offensive: the offensive was formally declared by the Turkish-backed SNA to capture territories from SDF control, with the support of Turkish air power (1)(2) (3) (4) (5), and Turkish media itself (including state-run media) has regularly classified it as an offensive:

• Anadolu Agency (Turkish state media) "Syrian National Army enters Tel Rifaat in major offensive against PKK/YPG terror corridor"
• Hürriyet Daily News "The (Manbij) liberation is part of a broader offensive—launched by the Ankara backed SNA to northeastern Syria of terrorist elements"
• Daily Sabah "As anti-regime forces advanced toward Damascus last December, the Syrian National Army launched an offensive against the YPG to take back key towns the terrorist group captured"
• Turkiye Today "Syrian opposition forces launch new offensive in Manbij, northern Syria"

If this isn't a military offensive then I don't know what is. Lyra Stone (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

@Lyra Stone: these sources don't say it is a TURKISH offensive, it says SNA Braganza (talk) 09:43, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

This is an offensive carried out by a Turkish-backed proxy force with direct support from Turkish air power. If the concern is over the phrasing of "Turkish offensive" versus "Turkish-backed offensive", then that can be discussed. However, your original argument challenged whether this qualifies as an 'offensive' at all, not Turkey's role in it, and your proposed title still attributes the operation to Turkey rather than the SNA. Lyra Stone (talk) 17:48, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

we already have Operation Dawn of Freedom, we don't need another one only to squeeze Turkey in it unless we actually focus here about Turkey's role which is not an offensive Braganza (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Operation Dawn of Freedom apparently ended on December 12th after the capture of Manbij, yet the broader offensive continues which includes the Kobani clashes, ongoing fighting at the Tishreen Dam etc. This page was meant to discuss the broader Turkish/SNA offensive in northern Syria during and after the fall of Assad. Lyra Stone (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

this is not clear in the title if that is your intention than please offer a better counterproposal, SNA is obviously largely influenced by Turkey but calling it a "Turkish" offensive in inaccurate then Braganza (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Would you be okay with "Turkish-backed offensive" then? Turkey is obviously the main driver behind this, and the Turkish air force is directly involved so it's not just the SNA, but if you think calling it a "Turkish offensive" is misleading then I'm okay with changing it to Turkish-backed offensive. Lyra Stone (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

maybe North Syrian clashes or similar? Braganza (talk) 07:22, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

or North Syrian campaign? Braganza (talk) 07:26, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley@Lyra Stone Braganza (talk) 06:37, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

I feel like that's too general and makes it even less obvious what this is about. What exactly about the title "Turkish-backed offensive" do you take issue with? Is it still the word offensive or is it the mention of Turkey? Another option could be "Turkey-SNA offensive". Lyra Stone (talk) 18:24, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

"Turkish-backed offensive" kinda sounds weird and would exclude Turkey again as an active party but at the same time reduces SNA to a mere puppet.

Turkey-SNA offensive might work but once again its not really Turkish offensive. I wouldn't oppose it if it gets support.

i slightly agree with the "too general" part but "North Syrian campaign/clashes (2025–present)" wouldn't be too different from Manbij offensive (2024) and 2024 Kobani clashes Braganza (talk) 21:51, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

I hear your point with the "Turkish-backed" offensive title. But I think "Turkey-SNA offensive" is an accurate description of the situation: the SNA, operating under the direct supervision of the Turkish Armed Forces, launched an offensive driven by Turkey's strategic objectives in Syria in which the Turkish Air Force is directly involved. It's a combined SNA and Turkish offensive.

"North Syrian" clashes isn't too different from the others you mentioned, but those were specific battles/clashes; this page is meant to be the broader SNA-Turkish campaign in which these battles take place, and I think that needs to be clear in the title. "North Syrian campaign/clashes" could include clashes with ISIS, the new government etc. which are not directly related to the SNA/Turkish campaign.

If you still take issue with the word "offensive" maybe we can come to a compromise with calling it a campaign? Let me know your thoughts. It would be good to get some other opinions but nobody else is weighing in... Lyra Stone (talk) 17:12, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree @Lyra Stone Braganza (talk) 18:41, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

@Lyra Stone i think you can move it Braganza (talk) 10:57, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't think I can, at least the instructions say it has to be done by someone who wasn't involved in the discussions about the move. Also I'm not sure we ever reached a final consensus... Lyra Stone (talk) 23:04, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

@David O. Johnson: Braganza (talk) 12:24, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

@Lyra Stone and Braganza: Just so we're completely clear, what exactly did you agree on the title being? SNA–Turkish campaign in Northern Syria (2024–present)? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:12, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes I'm good with that title Lyra Stone (talk) 17:21, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Turkey, WikiProject Kurdistan, and WikiProject Syria have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 13:13, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Belligerents: Syrian Interim/Transitional Governments

The infobox previously gave the Turkish-backed Syrian Interim Government as a belligerent. As this formally ceased to exist at the end of January and Syrian Transitional Government forces began to enter its territory in January, an IP has changed the infobox belligerent to the Transitional Government, which does make sense but I wonder if it's misleading. Is the Transitional Government backing the SNA troops, who are basically Turkish proxies? BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:22, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

That's a good question...I think technically the Syrian Transitional Government is a belligerent, since the SNA announced that it was dissolving and merging into the new Syrian Army. The SNA is still obviously operating as Turkish proxies independently of the other forces in the new Syrian army, but it is technically part of the new government now, right? It's a little confusing but I don't think it's too misleading since the infobox also specifically lists the SNA as the distinct unit involved. Lyra Stone (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

i would say:

Syrian National Army

• Syrian Interim Government (until February 2025)

Braganza (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Title

@Ecrusized: This title feels too similar to ones that were rejected in the above move discussion as too vague. However, if we are planning to keep this title, then it may as well simply be "Rojava conflict (2024–25)" since "Northeastern Syria conflict" redirects to the "Rojava conflict" article. (Also pinging participants: @Braganza, @Bobfrombrockley, and @Lyra Stone.) –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 13:27, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't understand where this title even comes from. It wasn't proposed or discussed in the move discussion. I agree with you about it being too vague and I don't think Rojava conflict would be any better. This page is specifically about the Turkish-backed offensive in northern Syria, and the new title removes Turkey/the SNA's role entirely, which pretty much defeats the entire point of the page. Lyra Stone (talk) 13:35, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Depends if we want to include the early fights with Assad regime or not but i would rather keep that way Braganza (talk) 13:46, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that a discussion was ongoing previously, "SNA-Turkish campaign" sounded really bad and vague to me, acronyms which barely any reader not closely associated with the subject knows such as SNA should certainly not be used in article titles. I picked this current one due to its similarity with 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria. I don't mind adding Turkey, and offensive into the title. But as I said earlier, barely anyone who doesn't follow this conflict will know what SNA is.

Also, there must be a timeline, old title was terrible because it was simply called "SNA–Turkish campaign in northern Syria". Without any emphasis on timeline, it could refer to over a dozen articles, about Turkey's past interventions in the last decade. Ecrusized (talk) 14:50, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Maybe someone else changed it before you, because the original title was "Turkish offensive in northern Syria (2024—present)" which sounds a lot like what you are proposing. It looks like the title has been changed again now to something closer to what it was originally. The previous discussion was sparked because people took issue with calling it an offensive, and then the inclusion of SNA was discussed, but never officially agreed upon. Personally I think the current title: "Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria (2024–2025)" is a good and accurate description of this page, but I expect others will have some contrary opinions again... Lyra Stone (talk) 15:10, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

@Lyra Stone you misunderstood my whole point after agreeing the final title... it was about defining the offensive (it was about who made the offensive, Turkey didn't make one, SNA did probably on Turkish command but the Turkish army was not directly involved in it) Braganza (talk) 16:05, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

I understand your point, you said it wasn’t a Turkish offensive and so we agreed on calling it a campaign instead. I still think it could qualify as a Turkish offensive since the Turkish Air Force was directly involved, but I was (and still am) willing to compromise by calling it a Turkish-SNA campaign instead. (This is Lyra Stone btw, I’m just not logged in right now). 2605:A601:AA41:4600:A1D5:6E3D:6452:541D (talk) 16:44, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Should we unhyphenate "north-eastern"? Either way, to validate the parentheses that are present in the current title of this page, a disambiguation page should be created at "Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria" or "Turkish offensive into northeastern Syria" if this title is kept. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 15:50, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Turkey is far less involved than the previous campaigns though Braganza (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

SNA is a de-facto Turkish proxy force, it is dubious whether they can take any military action without direct Turkish supervision. Ecrusized (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

@Ecrusized We have not agreed on moving it back! You undid the last discussion for no reason! Braganza (talk) 15:51, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

sorry for the late reaction but just changing the title after a RfC because you don't like the title is not justified, i just realized that you changed it Braganza (talk) 15:56, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Most users in this discussion seemed to support the change. Ecrusized (talk) 17:22, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

"Most" out of 3 at best Braganza (talk) 18:10, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

The article I moved from was called "SNA–Turkish campaign in northern Syria", which didn't have any emphasis on timeline. Also the SNA acronym cannot be used in an article title since its rarely known to readers not closely associated with the subject. These are my two main concerns, year, and acronyms. I don't care for whether Turkey is mentioned or not in the title. Ecrusized (talk) 08:17, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

@Ecrusized Syrian National Army offensive then? Braganza (talk) 21:09, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

That's fine with me. Like I said, my main concern are date in the time, such as month/year and acronoyms. Ecrusized (talk) 07:30, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 16 July 2025

Turkish offensive into northeastern Syria (2024–2025) → ? – So to end the discussion once and for all:

1. My position: "the Turkish ground forces [we]re not involved" as the offensive was executed by the SNA with some Turkish air support so i agreed to "SNA–Turkish campaign in Northern Syria (2024–2025)"
2. @Ecrusized and Lyra Stone: "SNA is a de-facto Turkish proxy force, it is dubious whether they can take any military action without direct Turkish supervision." so it should be called "Turkish offensive into northeastern Syria (2024–2025)"
3. @Gluonz: "feels too similar to ones that were rejected" so "Rojava conflict (2024–2025)"

changed the years a bit; @Bobfrombrockley Braganza (talk) 16:15, 16 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 17:12, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

@Braganza: My aim with that comment was to offer a slight improvement to the title to which this article had been moved without discussion as well as to start a discussion based on that move. I was not endorsing any particular title. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:47, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

@Gluonz i didn't mean to offend you Braganza (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

@Braganza: I never said that you offended me... I was simply pointing that out. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 17:06, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

i mean it wasn't directed at you @Gluonz Braganza (talk) 17:32, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

@Braganza: To be clear, my position is not that it should be called Turkish offensive just because the SNA is a Turkish proxy, it’s also the fact that there was Turkish air support so Turkey was directly involved. I don't believe that ground forces are required for a campaign to be considered an offensive, but I was (and still am) willing to change it to a "SNA—Turkish campaign" if people think that makes more sense (but I did see Ecrusized’s comment on using acronyms, so "SNA" might be an issue). I do think it's a problem to erase Turkey's role altogether; this page was not meant to be exclusively about the SNA's actions, and if it is changed to that then a lot of edits will need to be made to the page because right now non-SNA actions are included throughout the article (Turkish airstrikes are included in casualty counts, humanitarian impact, etc.). It just doesn't make sense to me to remove Turkey's involvement from this. Lyra Stone (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

@Lyra Stone "so i agreed to "SNA–Turkish campaign in Northern Syria (2024–2025)"" Braganza (talk) 05:22, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

also by the same logic we would have to rename dozens of proxy wars, the SNA is not special in any way Braganza (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

SNA shouldn't be used in the title since its a fairly unknown acronym to the readers not closely associated with the subject. Ecrusized (talk) 07:31, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

@Ecrusized@Gluonz@Lyra Stone

Turkish–Syrian National Army offensive? Braganza (talk) 07:47, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

That's fine by me. Ecrusized (talk) 07:55, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

"in" or "into"? "North" or "northeastern"? Should the 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria article also be moved for consistency? –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 21:17, 23 July 2025 (UTC)