Talk:2024 Spanish floods

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2024 Spanish floods article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

A news item involving 2024 Spanish floods was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 30 October 2024.

Wikipedia

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Spain Mid‑importance

	Spain portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Climate change Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Climate change, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Climate change on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Climate changeWikipedia:WikiProject Climate changeTemplate:WikiProject Climate changeClimate change
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
If you are looking for ways to improve this article, we recommend checking out our recommended sources and our style guide

Weather: Floods Mid‑importance

	Weather portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Weather, which collaborates on weather and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details. Articles Requested Project Resources Become a Member Project Talk Assessment A-Class Alerts WeatherWikipedia:WikiProject WeatherTemplate:WikiProject WeatherWeather
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Floods task force (assessed as Mid-importance).

Further expand Paiporta information

I can't cite any sources on this right now, but over 50 of the deaths have been in Paiporta. It is arguably one of the most affected places. Houses have been destroyed, and there's people likely dead in underground garages, and they have still not been found.

I will try to add some information about this myself sometime in the future, but it would be nice if someone could begin researching this topic to find some official sources.

I know I am not an official source, but I live very nearby to that area and have close friends there. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 22:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I urge anyone here to add sources to newly added information ModernDaySlavery (talk) 06:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ModernDaySlavery

I will try to do this myself when the things calm down a little. I know I should just edit the article myself, but I am writing from my phone, as I have no access to my computer right now.

Today the Govt President, the Community President and the Spanish King/Queen visited Paiporta. There were major incidents, including people throwing mud and different stuff at them. The presidents left the area pretty quickly. The royal family stayed there longer. The main target of the insults and attacks were the presidents, people were telling the king to make them leave their charges (there was a cancelled emergency plan, no help has been asked to the rest of the emergency services of the country, and the alerts were massively late, almost 2-3h after some places were already flooded and destroyed).

It would also be important to highlight the gigantic amount of fake news/misinformation being spread, at least in affected areas. This includes the supposed interrumption of the 112 phone line (our emergency service number, equivalent to 911).

All this info can be easily sourced if you look in "La 1" (major TV news in Spain), "La Sexta" (major TV news in Spain), "EL PAIS" (major printed/digital newspaper in Spain) or "Apunt Televisió" (biggest Valencia local TV news that has been chosen as the official source of information for Valencian people by the government). MrCiteYourSources (talk) 23:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Today the ... was already added 10 hours before the above comment.

How were the alerts were massively late if the article says flooding was around noon and "AEMET issued its first red weather warning at 07:36"?

If All this info can be easily sourced if you look in ... "EL PAIS", then how could the gigantic amount of fake news/misinformation ... [include] the supposed interrumption of the 112 phone line?

The article's EL PAIS source disagrees

It asserts "la imposibilidad de contactar con el 112 por estar las líneas colapsadas" ("the impossibility of contacting 112 because the lines are collapsed") and people "no pueden comunicarse con el 112 debido a la saturación de las líneas" ("cannot communicate with 112 due to the saturation of the lines").

174.94.28.189 (talk) 08:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@174.94.28.189

When I say "the alerts were massively late" I am referring to the ES Alert system (auto notifications to mobile systems) which were received approximately 2h after the "Rambla del Poyo" had collapsed. To be honest, I didnt even see the AEMET alert, which is a problem on my side, but a lot of people had that same problem.

As for the king's visit, I hadn't seen that in the article to be honest, but it would appear to be missing the part about Carlos Mazon

The 112 lines were satturated, not "offline". There were multiple people saying that the 112 line was offline (not attending any calls at all). The 112 line was not offline, and users would be kept waiting until an agent was available. People were sharing a supposed alternative number to 112, but that was a fake.

https://x.com/carlos_mazon_/status/1851384303973724627

Anyway, that is only one of the many "misinformation spreads" that have been around these latest days.

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20241030/lluvia-bulos-empeorado-aguacero-zonas-afectadas-dana-valencia-albacete-110910126

In fact, there is one currently being explained on Apunts TV about the Alfafar-Benetusser tunnel supposedly being filled with corpses. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

EL PAIS clearly says "the impossibility of contacting 112 because the lines are collapsed" meaning it thinks the 112 lines were offline. But that elperiodico source could be used as an alternative perspective. The alerts and the king need a source. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 01:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just added the part about Carlos Mazón visiting Paiporta and a source to the article.

The things I said about the alerts and the kings have already added to the article (the alerts part is hard to describe because it was a kind of controversial situation, but there's already a lot of objective information in the article).

It would be cool if people could work on the part about misinformation being spread, since it had a surprisingly high effect on the "panic feeling" of the population in the following days.

I can work on my computer again, so I'll be able to work on this myself these holidays if nobody else does. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 11:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I'd prefer someone else working on this instead of me is because there could be an argued conflict of interest since I've been personally affected, so I'd rather keep my edits minor. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

convert infobox image from pdf to image

the images are very informative. i've added similar European Union ERCC – Emergency Response Coordination Centre pdfs to 2024 Central European floods. what's a way we could get auto-generated images from the pdfs? this would help i think, so that when users tap the image for greater detail, they're not directed to a separate file details of pdf page Johnfreez (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inkscape can import the PDF and preferably export as SVG to upload to Wikimedia Commons. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

this is helpful, thanks :) it would be even better if the file format conversion could be automated and added to the appropriate place, for example Category:ECHO Daily Maps of 2024. Johnfreez (talk) 09:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The PDFs have links to the data sources which is very useful. Lupe (talk) 16:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

wow i hadn't noticed that. thank you and others and developers of OptimusPrimeBot for uploading these informative images and infographics really. having the data sources linked inside the pdf is great. it would also be great if a reader weren't forwarded to a separate page when tapping on the image. Johnfreez (talk) 11:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why the PDF format opens differently, but I agree that it's annoying. Lupe (talk) 12:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SVG supports "links to the data sources". It's just that Inkscape doesn't import them from PDF correctly. It's also sad that the file size gets inflated from 1 MB to more than 10 MB. Though if I use pdf2svg which compresses it, the text becomes unselectable. Does anyone know of a PDF to SVG converter that preserves links? 174.94.28.189 (talk) 23:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yes preserving links and, in general, fidelity to the original pdf in the converted svg would be ideal. it would be nice to present readers with all these different file format options, and at least for the leading infobox image, when tapping/clicking it, to have it enlarge as other images do. as well it makes sense to have it in a format that puts it in the sequence of article images that can be slideshowed, i.e., can be cycled through along with all other article images. Johnfreez (talk) 10:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i think i have an answer to my original question... the pdfs all seems to already be auto-converted from pdfs into different sized images... i just didn't look carefully enough to notice them. so should we use one of the image versions of the pdf in the article and also make the reader aware of the tapable/clickable data sources in the pdf format? Johnfreez (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the PDF version is still better. Lupe (talk) 11:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm... then what about emphasizing the availability of the data sources in a caption of the pdf? it would be a bit strange but what about placing both formats side-by-side so the image is expandable on-tap/click and shows up in a cycle/slideshow of the article's images? or alternatively maybe putting a copy of the pdf in image format somewhere else in the article? Johnfreez (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A slideshow is designed but there is the bug https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T77145. Maybe they can be persuaded to prioritize single-page PDFs. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 01:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, solving that would of course be better than converting every PDF file page into another format. Sadly the phabricator task is already almost ten years old. Lupe (talk) 01:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

am i mistaken to think that this is already done? pdf's automatically optionally available in image formats? thanks for pointing out the slideshow feature. what i was referring to when i said slideshow was simply when there's an image tapped-on/clicked and thus expanded, then there's an ability to press arrow keys to cycle through article images. but in the case of pdf's, they're skipped over Johnfreez (talk) 12:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath and Response scopes?

I was wondering what the scopes for the "Aftermath" and "Response" sections are supposed to be? It seems like currently there's some overlap between the two. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Response should come before Aftermath, the former should deal with the reaction to the event and the second to the consequence of what happened. Barjimoa (talk) 14:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Context setting

Why no mention of the Ruby / Valles floods of 1962 . Which killed over 600 people possible as high as 1000 . source wikipedia 82.18.184.174 (talk) 13:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second DANA

I miss a mention of the second DANA in November. While it may not be so relevant in itself, it provides a contrast in damage and response and there is the fact that cleaning work had to stop out of precaution. -- Error (talk) 10:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]