Talk:A Elbereth Gilthoniel

Translation of “Fanuilos”

I am no Sindarin expert, but the translation (twice) of Fanuilos (one of Elbereth’s bynames) as “Everwhite” looks wrong to me. The closing particle los does indeed mean “snow” or “snowy white,” but “ever” would be uial or something like it. Fanui looks more likely to have something to do with clouds, as in the Quenya form fanyar in Galadriel’s Namarië lament:

An sí Tintallë Varda Oiolossëo

ve fanyar máryat Elentári ortanë

.

For now, Varda the Kindler from Eversnow

like clouds her hands the Starqueen has spread

In that case a better rendering of Fanuilos would be Cloudwhite. Can anyone shed more light on this?

Dodiad (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, but we can't try working this out for ourselves, that's obviously OR. The elvish dictionary notes that in The Road Goes Ever On, Tolkien gave the translation "bright spirit clothed in ever-white" but as always offered other meanings. "Fan" can be "cloud" or "radiant figure [of a Vala]", the latter seemingly being the intended sense here. Best we stay with the sources, as usual. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:58, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Comparison with other Elvish hymns

Brief comment to ask if any Tolkien scholars have compared this work with other Elvish poetry? Carcharoth (talk) 19:37, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Adding that the article could maybe make clearer where the reader encounters this song. It is first encountered in part as sung by the High Elves that Frodo encounters in passing (the Gildor Inglorion meeting) and Frodo then cries the first line of the verse when attacking a Black Rider at Weathertop. This all comes before the full text at Rivendell. Surely some sources cover this? Apologies if this was already planned for inclusion! Carcharoth (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Add that by all means. It's a primary matter so the primary source is fine as refs here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Having said that, there are differences. Might not be quite the same song. Hmm. Carcharoth (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Maybe best to check Shippey, etc, on the matter, then. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:23, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

I will check. My memory may be playing me false. It occurs in variations throughout the books, as here from The Tolkien Gateway:

Variations of this hymn are sung throughout the book, such as the very last one written down: ...and as if in answer, from down below, coming up the road out of the valley, voices sang:
A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath,
Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."
- Frodo Baggins in The Return of the King, The Grey Havens

I am almost certain that someone somewhere has written about this echoing callback technique, similar to the various walking songs. Will see what I can find. Carcharoth (talk) 20:45, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

On "as if", we have Tolkien's ambiguity. On callback, I'm not sure I've read anything. On "We still remember", Shippey (Road) has a bit on p. 214ff (with various echoes some pages on about the "hither shore" etc.) Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. This page here quotes the earliest version the reader encounters:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel

Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!
O Queen beyond the Western Seas!
O Light to us that wander here
Amid the world of woven trees!

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee
In a far land beyond the Sea.

O stars that in the Sunless Year
With shining hand by her were sown,
In windy fields now bright and clear
We see your silver blossom blown!

O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.

And I did remember correctly that the Grey Havens version of this is in 'response' to the third version of the walking song (which as you know there are Wikipedia articles about: A Walking Song and The Road Goes Ever On (song)). What I cannot remember is whether there was a walking song just before the hobbits hear the Elves singing in 'Three is Company'? The other point is that although the Rivendell song is provided to the reader as untranslated Elvish, this one is not. It is translated (by whom is not clear, there is an implication that one of the authors of the Red Book has translated here). I am not sure if the reader is expected to make the connection when the Rivendell song appears. Maybe not until a second or third reading... :-) Carcharoth (talk) 21:26, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Randomly adding in here that this blog has confirmed the linkage between the walking songs and the elven hymns (at least as sung out in the wild). Hopefully a conventional source can be found that discusses this. This is a good overview. That is probably enough for tonight. Carcharoth (talk) 23:17, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Three versions

Regardless of the above section, the article as currently written (version from April 2025) says: "There are three versions of this iambic tetrameter hymn, the first of which is the largest portion of Sindarin in The Lord of the Rings" and then gives references to three text versions ('Three is Company', 'Many Meetings', 'Choices of Master Samwise'). However, this purported largest portion of Sindarin is actually the second version. And the 'Three is Company' version (and its later appearance in 'The Grey Havens') is not covered in the article (which only has secondary analysis of two of the three versions). I will try and add this in later, but have run out of time today. Maybe someone else has time? I am also doubly positive now that someone did write about the translated vs untranslated aspect of the 'walking song' version and the 'Hall of Fire' version (I just made up those names for them). Will try and find that reference. Carcharoth (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

To clarify one more point about the whole 'translation' issue, the description from 'Three is Company' makes it clear that this is Frodo later writing down what he understood the words to mean:

The singing drew nearer. One clear voice rose now above the others. It was singing in the fair elven-tongue, of which Frodo knew only a little, and the others knew nothing. Yet the sound blending with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words which they only partly understood. This was the song as Frodo heard it [...]

And then you get the "Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!" 'translation' into Westron (and thence into English going by the translation conceit). Some articles out there treat this as a separate song, but it makes sense IMO to treat this all in one article. Apparently (trivia alert) this song is sung in a Slovak radio adaptation of LotR. It is almost certain that the foreshadowing here ("sound blending with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words") of the later Hall of Fire effect has also been written about. Carcharoth (talk) 09:58, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

1975 Mallorn article

Maybe more useful than the above is this 1975 Mallorn article: The Elven Hymn to Elbereth by Neil McLeod (Mallorn: The Journal of the Tolkien Society No. 9 (1975), pp. 5-7). There will be more recent sources as well by established Tolkien scholars. Carcharoth (talk) 10:05, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

It's not a very informative source, other than pointing to the primary materials, and it's doubtfully a RS as it's very early, before Mallorn was peer reviewed, and McLeod doesn't seem to be a known authority. Also we now have 3 threads on the same topic! Chiswick Chap (talk) Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:20, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

Sorry. Will try and convert the musings into something useful, though not quite yet. It was interesting seeing that early attempt at translation, but agreed on what you say. Though it may be of passing interest that "Fír Fesso A FESTSCHRIFT FOR NEIL MCLEOD" (2018) includes 'Historical Linguistics, Manuscript Tradition, and the Languages of Tolkien’s Middle Earth' by an Aaron Griffith. It is interesting the background of some of the people that write these articles. Anyway, not relevant here, and also not relevant but while looking for that, I came across a recent article on another Tolkien topic, which I will pop on your talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 19:07, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

I did search for NM + Tolkien, without result; there are many men of the same name, which makes working out what this NM actually did difficult. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:44, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

If it is the one with Aaron Griffith writing about Tolkien languages and manuscript tradition in the festschrift I mention above, then it is the (now retired) Australian law professor who wrote on early Irish contract law. Maybe writing for Mallorn when a student. But difficult to confirm this (and not really relevant in any case). Carcharoth (talk) 08:15, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

It is, as it confirms he was not a Tolkien or English lit scholar. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2025 (UTC)